Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Lightroom sharpening after multiple printings  (Read 3956 times)
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« on: February 09, 2010, 08:10:47 AM »
ReplyReply

I guess I should know this but apparently I don't. I have about 50 of my images processed through Lightroom and then saved to a special folder. I have these output sharpened at printing and then again when saved. Each time I call these up to print it seems like sharpening is added again. Do I need to turn the sharpening off in Lightroom or am I just imagining these being sharpened again everytime I touch them?
Logged

PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1774



WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 10:09:36 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
I guess I should know this but apparently I don't. I have about 50 of my images processed through Lightroom and then saved to a special folder. I have these output sharpened at printing and then again when saved. Each time I call these up to print it seems like sharpening is added again. Do I need to turn the sharpening off in Lightroom or am I just imagining these being sharpened again everytime I touch them?

What do you mean sharpened "when saved?"

Sharpening when printing is applied temporarily as the image goes to the printer, and is neither saved with the image nor applied cumulatively when you print more than once.
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 10:26:07 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: PeterAit
What do you mean sharpened "when saved?"

Sharpening when printing is applied temporarily as the image goes to the printer, and is neither saved with the image nor applied cumulatively when you print more than once.


In Lightroom when Exporting it says "output sharpening" Low standard or high. In the print module pretty much the same thing.
What started this was I imported an image from my print folder and did a couple things to it in Lightroom(No addl. sharpening) then printed it from Lightroom and it was way over sharpened.
I compared it to the same print in my gallery printed from that same file and the new one I had just printed had way too much sharpening. Its coming from some where just not sure where or why?
Logged

Paul Stalker
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 09:05:34 PM »
ReplyReply

I don't really understand the workflow here. From my LR understanding, here's my 2cents.

1cent. Since you're output sharpening when exporting, you don't want ANY further sharpening (of any kind) if you later IMPORT it back in to print. So make sure before later printing that input sharpening is set to zero in the Develop module, and output sharpening is not checkboxed in the Print module.
(BTW, I don't think it's best practice to make image tweaks after output sharpening---it's supposed to be the last step, no? Any tweaks might disrupt the output sharpening.)

2cents. If you're ultimately printing from LR anyway, why import an exported image? Why not re-open the (un-output sharpened) image from the LR catalog, tweak, then reprint with new output sharpening for each print?

cheers
Logged
PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1774



WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 09:28:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
In Lightroom when Exporting it says "output sharpening" Low standard or high. In the print module pretty much the same thing.
What started this was I imported an image from my print folder and did a couple things to it in Lightroom(No addl. sharpening) then printed it from Lightroom and it was way over sharpened.
I compared it to the same print in my gallery printed from that same file and the new one I had just printed had way too much sharpening. Its coming from some where just not sure where or why?

Output sharpening is applied when you export photos or create a web gallery. It is not applied to the original image but to the exported image file, JPEG or whatever.

I don't understand your workflow and wonder if you might be using LR improperly. Can you describe your procedures in detail?
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 7241


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 12:00:33 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

You should always work with original images.

The way LR works you essentially have recepies for processing an image. So the only thing LR needs is the original image and the recepies. All adjustments are than applied in the correct order when needed.

Sharpening for print is very much related to print size. The image should be interpolated to the right size and than the correct amount of sharpening applied prior to printing.

If you want images with different processing parameters the best way is to make Virtual Copies. Another way that may work is exporting the images as DNG. DNG files contain info from LR so LR can still process them. The only advantage I see with this approach over a Virtual Copy is that a VC probably does only exist in the data base. So it would be lost if you loose your data base.

If you need to use Photoshop it's somewhat different. In my view PS is a bad thing in a parametric workflow, but there may be work arounds for this (using smart filters?).

The way I work with PS is:

1) Prepare image in LR
2) Open in PS
3) Apply additional editing
4) Save image
5) Print from Lightroom

Sharpening in PS is only for effect, like "improving depth of field".


Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Dan Berg
I guess I should know this but apparently I don't. I have about 50 of my images processed through Lightroom and then saved to a special folder. I have these output sharpened at printing and then again when saved. Each time I call these up to print it seems like sharpening is added again. Do I need to turn the sharpening off in Lightroom or am I just imagining these being sharpened again everytime I touch them?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 12:01:46 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

pegelli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 581



WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 01:30:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
In Lightroom when Exporting it says "output sharpening" Low standard or high. In the print module pretty much the same thing.
What started this was I imported an image from my print folder and did a couple things to it in Lightroom(No addl. sharpening) then printed it from Lightroom and it was way over sharpened.
I compared it to the same print in my gallery printed from that same file and the new one I had just printed had way too much sharpening. Its coming from some where just not sure where or why?

I think what you are doing is (pls. confirm):

Export the images (with sharpening applied) to a print folder
Import the images again in Lightroom
Further tweek images re-imported into lightroom
Print tweeked image from lightroom with again sharpening applied

If this is correct you are indeed applying sharpening twice (once upon export and once upon printing), so they will likely look oversharpened and too crunchy.

The way to overcome this is to avoid the export step, but instead create a virtual copy that you store in a print collection (if it is your objective to put print ready pictures together).
In that way you only sharpen when you print from lightroom.
Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
NikoJorj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1063


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 05:07:20 AM »
ReplyReply

I do agree with the others : if you re-import an exported jpeg you sharpen twice, and anyway that seems like a suboptimal workflow, unless you got a special reason for it.
Logged

Nicolas from Grenoble
A small gallery
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 05:46:14 AM »
ReplyReply

Pieter has explained what I am doing.
I have processed a file in Lightroom and exported to my print storage folder on my hd where I save my print files. I don't use Lightrooms catalog. Any image that I think is print worthy is sent to that print folder. When I want to print it again I re-import it resize and then print.
Some if not most of these have been run through Genuine fractals 6 for resizing and the gallery wrap extensions.
When I want to print again I pull from the print folder back into lightroom and resize to whatever my final print is to be. I really do not process these much at this point but do an ocassional brightness adjustment. Another thing that started this was I had an image from that folder that did not have the wrap extensions. I sent it to GF 6 for the extensions and then printed it. After the print since I did not have this image in that print folder saved with the wrap extensions I exported /saved it to the folder with the new extensions. When I re-imported it to print it again it was sharpened through the roof. I think I see what is going on here but will have to fix it.
The thing that is near impossible to see when printing from Lightroom is the level of sharpening you will see when printed. The question is how to determine the previous settings on all these images?  Isn't it true every time you import and do anything to this image it writes over the previous history. So you now have no history preview.  I have had this set up this way for several years but never noticed anything wrong until I started printing multiple prints of the same image at different sizes.
All of these images are large tiffs from 50 to 500mb
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 05:59:46 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

pegelli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 581



WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 06:04:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
Pieter has explained what I am doing.
I have processed a file in Lightroom and exported to my print storage folder on my hd where I save my print files.
Some if not most of these have been run through Genuine fractals 6 for resizing and the gallery wrap extensions.
When I want to print again I pull from the print folder back into lightroom and resize to whatever my final print is to be. I really do not process these much at this point but do an ocassional brightness adjustment. Another thing that started this was I had an image from that folder that did not have the wrap extensions. I sent it to GF 6 for the extensions and then printed it. After the print since I did not have this image in that print folder saved with the wrap extensions I exported /saved it to the folder with the new extensions. When I re-imported it to print it again it was sharpened through the roof. I think I see what is going on here but will have to fix it.
The thing that is near impossible to see when printing from Lightroom is the level of sharpening you will see when printed. The question is how to determine the settings on all these images? Isn't it true every time you import and do anything to this image it writes over the previous history. I have had this set up this way for several years but never noticed anything wrong until I started printing multiple images.
All of these images are large tiffs from 50 to 500mb

Dan, I see where you're coming from but I think (not 100% sure) there is no option to turn sharpening off in the LR print module.
So anytime you import an already sharpened file back into lightroom and want to print from there you'll have a problem.

Only option I see when you want to stay close to this workflow is export unsharpened (that is possible, 100% sure of that) do whatever you want to do (resize/add wrap extension etc, but not sharpening) outside LR and then reimport into LR and do all your printing from there. If it weren't for the wrap extension (I assume this is adding a custom border) I would never leave Lightroom in the first place, since I found the resizing in LR very competent and I see no real need for genuine fractals or other resizers.
Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 06:20:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Pieter,
Thanks for your assistance.
I use Gen Fractals for several things but mostly for the uprezing the larger pano prints and the gallery wrap extension function.
I print quite a few 36 X 96" panos and many 40 X 60" images and GF 6 has worked real well for me in that regard.
Over half of these saved print files are either HDR or panos. Which means alot of work has gone into the processing of these images and its the only place I have saved them. Thinking they would be safe out away from Lightroom. How do I find out what level of sharpening has been added if the history is gone?
I have CS4 and can proof but this seems like an almost impossible task.
In the Lightroom print module you can turn off sharpening but it also greys out the media option. If all the saved images have the same level of sharpening if I turn this off I may be ok. Time for some testing as we are snowed in here in south eastern Pennsylvania. 22" last week and expecting another 20+ today.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 06:36:13 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

pegelli
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 581



WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 06:40:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
Pieter,
Thanks for your assistance.
I use Gen Fractals for several things but mostly for the uprezing the larger pano prints and the gallery wrap extension function.
I print quite a few 36 X 96" panos and many 40 X 60" images and GF 6 has worked real well for me in that regard.
Over half of these saved print files are either HDR or panos. Which means alot of work has gone into the processing of these images and its the only place I have saved them. Thinking they would be safe out away from Lightroom. How do I find out what level of sharpening has been added. Is their a way to get them all back to the same sharpened level?
I have CS4 and can proof but this seems like an almost impossible task.

Dan, I sometimes also use your technique for storing "print ready/sharpenend" images on my hard drive. I have found the following works for me:
- If I do a lot of processing I try not to forget to save an unsharpened tif or jpg as well, just to leave the option for a resize and subsequent print sharpening open.
- If I save the sharpened version I put the dimensions of the print size in the filename and add "_pr sh". so the filename would look like: abcdefg_30x40_pr sh.jpg or tif.
- I never reimport sharpened/processed files into lightroom. If I want to reprint them I do that out of photoshop CS

Hope this helps with your forward planning

For the past, assuming you correctly sharpened the files for the actual print size you might be able to find the information back with the "image size" data (and you didn't use any additional up/downrezzing in the program you printed with or in the printer driver)

On your last question, once an image is sharpened it's almost impossible to restore it back to an unsharpened version. Maybe someone here knows a technique, but I haven't found any good way yet (and yes I have made mistakes and only saved the sharpened version and had to start all over again for a different print size).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 06:44:16 AM by pegelli » Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
Robcat
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 11:28:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Dan, since it doesn't sound like you want to use LR for file management of your GF-processed images, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go back into LR at all. Just bring them into Photoshop and tweak/print from there.
Logged

Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 12:06:30 PM »
ReplyReply

I have never printed from Photoshop not to say that I can't.  Lightrooms print module is one of the biggest reasons for using Lightroom. I guess I need to change the way I am doing things.
Does anyone know what happens to the media choice if you uncheck output sharpening box in Lightroom? The media choice is now greyed out. Just would like to know a little more about what is actually going on internally in Lightroom if you make this choice.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 12:06:51 PM by Dan Berg » Logged

Eric Myrvaagnes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7789



WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 12:07:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Robcat
Dan, since it doesn't sound like you want to use LR for file management of your GF-processed images, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go back into LR at all. Just bring them into Photoshop and tweak/print from there.
That's what I do. Until LR has soft-proofing, my workflow amounts to treating LR as an elaborate raw conversion program. I do what I can there at first, and then export converted files to a subdirectory of the one containing the raws. From there I do additional tweaking in Photoshop, saving a processed but unsharpened "master" file in the largest size I expect to print. When I want to make a print, I take the processed "master" file, resize it to the size I want to print, soft proof for the paper I will be using, sharpen (with Photokit Output sharpening), and print. I usually save a copy of this print-ready file also, with codes added to the filename telling me what size and paper it is prepared for.

This leaves me with at least three versions of an image: The original raw file, the LR- & PS-processed Master fiole, and print-ready files in whatever sizes I have already printed. Works for me. But when LR finally adds soft-proofing, I'm going to have to rethink my workflow.


Eric

Logged

-Eric Myrvaagnes

http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my website. New images each season.
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 12:23:44 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
That's what I do. Until LR has soft-proofing, my workflow amounts to treating LR as an elaborate raw conversion program. I do what I can there at first, and then export converted files to a subdirectory of the one containing the raws. From there I do additional tweaking in Photoshop, saving a processed but unsharpened "master" file in the largest size I expect to print. When I want to make a print, I take the processed "master" file, resize it to the size I want to print, soft proof for the paper I will be using, sharpen (with Photokit Output sharpening), and print. I usually save a copy of this print-ready file also, with codes added to the filename telling me what size and paper it is prepared for.

This leaves me with at least three versions of an image: The original raw file, the LR- & PS-processed Master fiole, and print-ready files in whatever sizes I have already printed. Works for me. But when LR finally adds soft-proofing, I'm going to have to rethink my workflow.


Eric

Thanks Eric and Rob,
Some very good information
Logged

PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1774



WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 12:49:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
That's what I do. Until LR has soft-proofing, my workflow amounts to treating LR as an elaborate raw conversion program. I do what I can there at first, and then export converted files to a subdirectory of the one containing the raws. From there I do additional tweaking in Photoshop, saving a processed but unsharpened "master" file in the largest size I expect to print. When I want to make a print, I take the processed "master" file, resize it to the size I want to print, soft proof for the paper I will be using, sharpen (with Photokit Output sharpening), and print. I usually save a copy of this print-ready file also, with codes added to the filename telling me what size and paper it is prepared for.

This leaves me with at least three versions of an image: The original raw file, the LR- & PS-processed Master fiole, and print-ready files in whatever sizes I have already printed. Works for me. But when LR finally adds soft-proofing, I'm going to have to rethink my workflow.


Eric

I don't understand why you ever export files from LR at all. Why not just leave them in LR and oprn to PS from there?
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
Schewe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5415


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 01:40:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
Does anyone know what happens to the media choice if you uncheck output sharpening box in Lightroom?


If you turn off sharpening in Lightroom there is no need for the media settings...the Matte/Glossy settings ONLY relate to Lightroom's output sharpening. If you aren't using the output sharpening in the Print module then the media settings are greyed out to tell you they don't apply.

You really need to decide where you are going to do your capture and output sharpening and be consistent...obviously, if you "Export" from Lightroom with the intent to bring back the image into Lightroom for printing, you shouldn't be doing output sharpening in Export.

As for how to tell whether an image has been output sharpened or not...I would guess that if the image looks a bit crunchy at 1:1, then either it has been output sharpened or you've over-sharpened the image in some other manner...
Logged
Dan Berg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 02:00:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Many thanks Jeff,
I am modifying my work flow as we speak.
Logged

Photo Op
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 193


« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 04:36:40 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Dan Berg
Many thanks Jeff,
I am modifying my work flow as we speak.

Dan- you may want to review Jeff's comments in this thread regarding sharpening and LR printing as you modify your workflow.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....41041&st=20
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:02:15 AM by Photo Op » Logged

David
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad