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Author Topic: Technical question regarding the use of a H4D-60 with a tech camera ...  (Read 7077 times)
PaulSchneider
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« on: February 18, 2010, 11:28:19 AM »
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Hi guys!

I'm new to forum and I really enjoyed reading all the great posts here about Medium Format Photography!

I've been pondering a long time to get a new MFDB and now have the opportunity to get a hasselblad camera using the Trade-Up-Program (I bought a cheap old 16mp back for that).

Now I'm interested in architectural photography and as I gather the way to go is to use a technical camera.

This, because the optics are superior and you can make movements.

Now I gather that the Diameter of the new Dalsa-CCD in the H4d-60 measures 68 mm ... and since even the best Rodenstock lenses like the 23 HR only have an image circle of 70 mm ... so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor??

My question is: How then could one stitch multiple images with such a huge sensor?

Thank you very much for your insights, for me all this is so new!

Regards

Paul
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cgoss
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 11:59:54 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor??
That's my take on it.  What I'm not clear on is whether you can expect the 23mm to fully cover a 40x54 sensor.  Rodenstock's image circle diagrams suggest that it will (note that they also suggest a center filter if the image circle is used at or near the circumference), but if you read their recommendations you will see they suggest a maximum format of 33x44 (or 37x49 with 'reduced movements') for the 23mm.

[attachment=20338:digarons.jpg]
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 12:18:10 PM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys!

I'm new to forum and I really enjoyed reading all the great posts here about Medium Format Photography!

I've been pondering a long time to get a new MFDB and now have the opportunity to get a hasselblad camera using the Trade-Up-Program (I bought a cheap old 16mp back for that).

Now I'm interested in architectural photography and as I gather the way to go is to use a technical camera.

This, because the optics are superior and you can make movements.

Now I gather that the Diameter of the new Dalsa-CCD in the H4d-60 measures 68 mm ... and since even the best Rodenstock lenses like the 23 HR only have an image circle of 70 mm ... so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor??

My question is: How then could one stitch multiple images with such a huge sensor?

Thank you very much for your insights, for me all this is so new!

Regards

Paul


Hi Paul,

You could also think about the HTS tilt shift adapter...

http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/hts-15.aspx


David
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David Grover
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 12:29:54 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Hi Paul,

You could also think about the HTS tilt shift adapter...

http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/hts-15.aspx


David


With a focal length conversion factor: 1.5x  !!!

PdF
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tho_mas
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 12:36:00 PM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Now I gather that the Diameter of the new Dalsa-CCD in the H4d-60 measures 68 mm ... and since even the best Rodenstock lenses like the 23 HR only have an image circle of 70 mm ... so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor?
search for posts of "rainer_v" ... he uses the Rodenstock HR lenses and he says the usable image circle is larger than stated in the specs.
Schneider Digitars offer lenses with larger image circles - but the image cirlce of the Digitar 24mm is limited; the 23HR has a larger IC.
There is a new Digitar 28mm announced to come this spring or summer that will have a large IC.
Of those digital highrez lenses the Digitar 47XL has the largest IC (AFAIK).

Here are the image circles of the Digitars:
[attachment=20343:digitar_..._circles.jpg]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 12:36:36 PM by tho_mas » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 12:43:28 PM »
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Quote from: PdF
With a focal length conversion factor: 1.5x  !!!

PdF

Yes, it is quite clear in the specs.

Your point being?

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David Grover
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 03:30:41 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Yes, it is quite clear in the specs.

Your point being?

If he's looking for a field of view of a Rodenstock 23 then the HC28mm*1.5 won't get him anywhere close in a single frame capture and will be a good bit off even with stitching every scene. (not saying anything bad about the HTS here - just not suitable for the wideness he's looking for).

Quick technical question David: you've said the the HC28mm will not fully cover the H4D-60 when that camera is released, but when you put the HTS 1.5 on will the 1.5x multiplied image cover the H4D-60?

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 03:31:34 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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cgoss
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 04:05:08 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
search for posts of "rainer_v" ... he uses the Rodenstock HR lenses and he says the usable image circle is larger than stated in the specs.
I re-read Chris Barrett's "wide.... I mean WIDE!" post and saw that one of the replies was from rainer_v.  He suggests that he gets full coverage plus some movements with the 23mm e75 with 36x48 sensor.  I just sent him a message asking for more info. Paul, I realize this is only part of the question for you.  I'm leaving it to others more knowledgeable than I to comment on WA stitching.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 07:08:59 AM by cgoss » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 04:23:23 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
If he's looking for a field of view of a Rodenstock 23 then the HC28mm*1.5 won't get him anywhere close in a single frame capture and will be a good bit off even with stitching every scene. (not saying anything bad about the HTS here - just not suitable for the wideness he's looking for).

Quick technical question David: you've said the the HC28mm will not fully cover the H4D-60 when that camera is released, but when you put the HTS 1.5 on will the 1.5x multiplied image cover the H4D-60?

Doug Peterson
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I was actually being sarcastic to "PdF"

I am sure the original poster is quite capable of working out if the HTS would fit into his needs, and all specs are available on the link I provided.  Including resulting field of view / focal lengths when using the HTS.

I simply did not see the value in his !!! post.  I get a bit tired of it.

Anyway!  In answer to you question, Yes the HTS will cover the 60MP sensor with room to spare for shifting.  

David

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 04:31:33 PM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Now I'm interested in architectural photography and as I gather the way to go is to use a technical camera.

This, because the optics are superior and you can make movements.

Now I gather that the Diameter of the new Dalsa-CCD in the H4d-60 measures 68 mm ... and since even the best Rodenstock lenses like the 23 HR only have an image circle of 70 mm ... so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor??

My question is: How then could one stitch multiple images with such a huge sensor?

The extreme wide-angle lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock do not have enough IC for large movements (the Schneider 24mm doesn't even have enough IC for very minor movements).

The wide angle lenses however (Rod-40, Schn-35/47) all have a lot of IC for movements and stitching.

Here is a color coded diagram I just made to illustrate this.

Lens circles for:
Schneider 47mm Digitar XL
Schneider 35mm Digitar XL
Schneider 28mm Digitar XL (unreleased)

Capture area for:
Phase One P65+ single frame
Phase One P65+ two-shot stitch (vertical frame: 15mm left/right)
Phase One P65+ four-shot stitch (horizontal frame: 20mm left/right with 15mm fall or 20mm rise)



Doug Peterson
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 04:42:06 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Anyway!  In answer to you question, Yes the HTS will cover the 60MP sensor with room to spare for shifting.  

Thanks.

Any H4D-60 raw samples yet? Any official update on it's release schedule?

Will you have another road show when the H4D-60 is available? I liked your H4D-40 roadshow last week - very well done. It's a bit off topic but Hassy does really well with it's internationally coordinated marketing. Phase relies more on distributed dealer-based local-marketing. For example back in 2008 we, as a dealer, had a similar roadshow (in our local markets)to show the prototype P65+ and repeated it with production models in early 2009. There is the advantage that our marketing can be more tailored to specific markets, but having a single international campaign (surely supplemented by additional local-specific marketing by the dealers) is, I think, a bit more cohesive. In a market where a lot of users don't sign on to forums, or sign up for dealer's newsletters I think it reaches more broadly.

If you have a roadshow again I hope you personally make it to Miami - would love to buy you a beer.

Doug Peterson
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tho_mas
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 05:09:34 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Here is a color coded diagram I just made to illustrate this.

Lens circles for:
Schneider 47mm Digitar XL
Schneider 35mm Digitar XL
Schneider 28mm Digitar XL (unreleased)

Capture area for:
Phase One P65+ single frame
Phase One P65+ two-shot stitch (vertical frame: 15mm left/right)
Phase One P65+ four-shot stitch (horizontal frame: 20mm left/right with 15mm fall or 20mm rise)
Doug, that's very useful!
However it's a bit misleading as image circle is one thing but the lens performance at large movements is a different thing.
With a P45 and the large IC of the 47XL I'd say you can't go further than 17mm shift (to one side) ... and at 17mm shift the resolution is just a half of the resolution in the image center (or even less).
Now the sensor of the of the P65+ is physically larger (5mm wider)... and actually you have deduct these 5mm from the useable amount of movements.
Still a lot of room for movements (and loads of resolution), however not as it looks like on such an outline.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 05:10:37 PM by tho_mas » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 05:18:09 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
Doug, that's very useful!
However it's a bit misleading as image circle is one thing but the lens performance at large movements is a different thing.
With a P45 and the large IC of the 47XL I'd say you can't go further than 17mm shift (to one side) ... and at 17mm shift the resolution is just a half of the resolution in the image center (or even less).
Now the sensor of the of the P65+ is physically larger (5mm wider)... and actually you have deduct these 5mm from the useable amount of movements.
Still a lot of room for movements (and loads of resolution), however not as it looks like on such an outline.

Depends largely on what you're shooting where the maximum shift is.

A very common architectural shot is an exterior where the top of the building extends to the top middle of the frame. In this case you can shift a good bit beyond what you have stated here because while the corners may soften slightly the top center of the frame will still be very sharp. If the corners are blue sky or clouds or out of focus leading-elements then the slight softening won't do any harm at all.

But you're point and your experience are very well taken. The outer edge of the image circle is never as sharp as the majority of the image circle. Still we both agree the larger image circle lenses provide a lot of room for stitching or movements.

edit: your comments have convinced me that in my final version of the document I use to make those diagrams that I should label the image circles as "extreme edge of image circle".

Doug

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 05:21:19 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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tho_mas
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 05:32:19 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
If the corners are blue sky or clouds or out of focus leading-elements then the slight softening won't do any harm at all.
I agree. But in this case you can't use the same amount of shift for fall... because sky is not above and under the building :-) (okay, maybe water...).
Don't want to be nitpicking... it's just that the 4xP65+ = 203MP is a bit unrealistic... unless you shoot a floating subject. A non moving floating subject to be precise.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 05:33:29 PM by tho_mas » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 03:24:34 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys!

I'm new to forum and I really enjoyed reading all the great posts here about Medium Format Photography!

I've been pondering a long time to get a new MFDB and now have the opportunity to get a hasselblad camera using the Trade-Up-Program (I bought a cheap old 16mp back for that).

Now I'm interested in architectural photography and as I gather the way to go is to use a technical camera.

This, because the optics are superior and you can make movements.

Now I gather that the Diameter of the new Dalsa-CCD in the H4d-60 measures 68 mm ... and since even the best Rodenstock lenses like the 23 HR only have an image circle of 70 mm ... so am I right that stitching and usind rise/fall is useless when using such a large sensor??

My question is: How then could one stitch multiple images with such a huge sensor?

Thank you very much for your insights, for me all this is so new!

Regards

Paul

Welcome Paul!

There are quite a few good MF resellers world-wide that can let you try a tried-and-tested 56-60MP digital back on one of the Wide Angle cameras mated to the 23mm, so you can see how it works and what real coverage you get with the big sensors. I'd start here or here

Good luck

Yair
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 04:54:18 AM »
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Hi Paul,

Seeing as your original request was regarding an H4D60   perhaps I can comment.

The H4D60 digital back can be mounted to pretty much any large format camera of your choosing, providing it has an H style interface.

Connection to the lens can either be via simple flash sync connection (then any mechanical type lens can be used), or we also support both Rollei and Schneider electronic shutters with full control of aperture/shutter and capture from our Phocus software.  

Please be aware the Rollei electronic system allows you to use it both tethered and untethered.  The schneider system you must be connected to your laptop for full control.

However, those shutters do require you to lug a lot more gear around ...and then power issues too.

So often, the mechanical shutter is a bit more elegant.

You might like to have a look at this neat camera, which was demo'd to me by an architecture photographer...

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ighlight=linhof

I was really impressed with the Rodenstock 23HR.  He was using it in combination with an H4D50.

Great images and lovely quality.

David

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David Grover
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 09:30:57 AM »
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news "super digitar" 28 and 43 have been announce by schneider... but while the 43 is supposed a arrive soon, the 28 have been delayed !

What about distortion with the HTS ?
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 10:15:40 AM »
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Quote from: archivue
news "super digitar" 28 and 43 have been announce by schneider... but while the 43 is supposed a arrive soon, the 28 have been delayed !

What about distortion with the HTS ?

Movements on the HTS are read by the camera, and then subsequently Phocus.

Vignetting, distortion and chromatic aberration are then removed automatically.

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David Grover
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PaulSchneider
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 12:01:20 PM »
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Wow! Thank you so much for all your replies!

There's so much knowledge bundled in this forum!

So my main take-away is this:

1. With tech-cameras some lenses like the 35 XL already have the IC reserves needed for stitching witch such a huge sensor. There's a 28 mm coming that will also have a large enough IC. So I would have to skip the 23mm in this scenario.

2. The Hasselblad HTS would enable stitching. And this in an ample manner: if I'm not mistaken to the extent of 18mm? with all Hasselblad primes? That's amazing considering such a huge sensor!

@Doug: To my understanding the HTS adapter employs a six lens construction that magnifies the image circle of the lens attached to it; for me it seems hard to believe that such a construction still yields enough resolution reserves after introducing so many more elements in the "image path". Have you made any tests in this regard? In other words, can the H4d-60 exploit the HTS in a satisfying manner or are tech camera setups still the way to go with regard to ultimate image quality?

With the HTS, the widest HC lens, the 28mm, because more of a 43mm which isn't all that wide for buildings. Now, when stitching the max. that the HTS allows for, what will be the effective field of view when doing a 3 image stitch, say 15 mm left and 15mm right? I don't have an idea how to calculate this ...


Finally, I still don't understand this about the HTS, will I be able to use rise movements in conjunction with shifting?

Thank you very much you all for your friendly comments!

Regards

Paul
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 12:24:16 PM by PaulSchneider » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 12:55:36 PM »
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Paul, if stitching is what you are after, then a tech camera will have 2 main things going for it (besides the quality of the lenses):

1. You can shift the back and not the lens so you're staying within the image circle and are avoidind paralax issues. If there is a way to mount the HTS/ lens to a tripod and shift the H body then this could help.
2. You can compose on a large ground glass, so you can see the full stitched area...less guessing and less room for errors.

Otherwise, the REAALY wide lenses such as the 23mm or the Schneider 24mm are so wide that often you only need 2-3mm rise to correct perspective for e.g. tall buildings.

But once again, try before you buy and as others often state here, try what's available now...
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