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Author Topic: Technical question regarding the use of a H4D-60 with a tech camera ...  (Read 6901 times)
tho_mas
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 01:19:12 PM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
With tech-cameras some lenses like the 35 XL already have the IC reserves needed for stitching witch such a huge sensor. There's a 28 mm coming that will also have a large enough IC. So I would have to skip the 23mm in this scenario
I wouldn't rely on stitching as an option for all purposes. I do it quite often however it is NOT always possible. So basically it's not a bad idea to have the lenses for the desired field of view on hand...
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 01:29:37 PM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
@Doug: To my understanding the HTS adapter employs a six lens construction that magnifies the image circle of the lens attached to it; for me it seems hard to believe that such a construction still yields enough resolution reserves after introducing so many more elements in the "image path". Have you made any tests in this regard? In other words, can the H4d-60 exploit the HTS in a satisfying manner or are tech camera setups still the way to go with regard to ultimate image quality?

I'll defer to David Grover on the HTS and how it is likely to perform whenever the H4D-60 is released.

My only comment is that the 6 micron sensors that I have worked with (P40+ and P65+) are very demanding on glass if you want to get the most out of them.

Doug Peterson
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 09:31:28 PM »
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@Doug: To my understanding the HTS adapter employs a six lens construction that magnifies the image circle of the lens attached to it; for me it seems hard to believe that such a construction still yields enough resolution reserves after introducing so many more elements in the "image path". Have you made any tests in this regard? In other words, can the H4d-60 exploit the HTS in a satisfying manner or are tech camera setups still the way to go with regard to ultimate image quality?
The HTS is essentially a teleconverter. All TC's degrade image quality at least some, it's the way they work. You can argue about how much or how little degradation there is going to be, but there will always be _some_.  So the technical camera and its lenses is likely to yield better results since you're using the lenses as-is (and the digital lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider are quite good).
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Nick-T
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2010, 02:27:29 PM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
The HTS is essentially a teleconverter. All TC's degrade image quality at least some, it's the way they work. You can argue about how much or how little degradation there is going to be, but there will always be _some_.  So the technical camera and its lenses is likely to yield better results since you're using the lenses as-is (and the digital lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider are quite good).

I hear what you are saying.
This was always my understanding, the more elements to a lens the softer it's going to get right? Well apparently not. I had a long chat with Hasselblad's lens designer on this subject. When I floated that theory he asked me "which HC lens do you consider the sharpest?" I replied the 120 Macro. "well guess which HC lens has the most elements..."

Bottom line I have the HTS and use it most days, and really struggle to see the degradation although I assume there must be some..

Nick-T
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tho_mas
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2010, 04:45:51 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
I hear what you are saying.
This was always my understanding, the more elements to a lens the softer it's going to get right? Well apparently not. I had a long chat with Hasselblad's lens designer on this subject. When I floated that theory he asked me "which HC lens do you consider the sharpest?" I replied the 120 Macro. "well guess which HC lens has the most elements..."

Bottom line I have the HTS and use it most days, and really struggle to see the degradation although I assume there must be some..

Nick-T
and what happens with the IQ of the 120 Macro if you move the first group of lenses off the center?
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Boris_Epix
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2010, 05:03:35 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Yes, it is quite clear in the specs.

Your point being?


The OP is asking about the 23 mm lens ... talking about stitching (making it even wider) so clearly he's not interested in shooting birds with a 300 mm lens. A 1,5 factor is something architecture photogs will not really like.

The hts system certainly has a place. But not in this post.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2010, 09:23:58 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
I hear what you are saying.
This was always my understanding, the more elements to a lens the softer it's going to get right? Well apparently not. I had a long chat with Hasselblad's lens designer on this subject. When I floated that theory he asked me "which HC lens do you consider the sharpest?" I replied the 120 Macro. "well guess which HC lens has the most elements..."

Bottom line I have the HTS and use it most days, and really struggle to see the degradation although I assume there must be some..
It's not so much about number of elements, but rather how a teleconverter works; a TC expands the image circle of the lens in front of it. Even if you could make an absolutely perfect TC, it would still be magnifying the original lens' image circle so that less of that resolving power hits the sensor. The only way there would be no loss at all is if the lens out-resolved the sensor by a large enough margin that even after magnification it would still have more resolution than the sensor could record. With today's high-density sensors, this seems unlikely to me.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 01:36:04 AM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
It's not so much about number of elements, but rather how a teleconverter works; a TC expands the image circle of the lens in front of it. Even if you could make an absolutely perfect TC, it would still be magnifying the original lens' image circle so that less of that resolving power hits the sensor. The only way there would be no loss at all is if the lens out-resolved the sensor by a large enough margin that even after magnification it would still have more resolution than the sensor could record. With today's high-density sensors, this seems unlikely to me.

Hi Jeff,

Please consider two other points.  The HTS was designed specifically with only 5 lenses in mind.  Not the whole H range.  Teleconverters suffer if they have to respond to or work with many different lens types.  The HTS does not, and was optimized for the lenses is supports.

Secondly, it is the only converter of its type which relays data on the movements back to the camera and then subsequently to the software.  Removing, distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting.

In conclusion there is virtually no visible difference between using the HTS or not using the HTS in image quality.  Normally the commenters on this device have not used it in practice.  I would urge anyone with pre-conceived ideas about the HTS to try it for themselves.

Best,




David

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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2010, 01:37:17 AM »
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Quote from: Boris_Epix
The OP is asking about the 23 mm lens ... talking about stitching (making it even wider) so clearly he's not interested in shooting birds with a 300 mm lens. A 1,5 factor is something architecture photogs will not really like.

The hts system certainly has a place. But not in this post.


As far as I am aware, not ALL architecture photography requires a wide angle lens.

I was suggesting the HTS as a possible alternative, and apologise if anyone felt this 'offensive'.

David

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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2010, 01:46:32 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
2. The Hasselblad HTS would enable stitching. And this in an ample manner: if I'm not mistaken to the extent of 18mm? with all Hasselblad primes? That's amazing considering such a huge sensor!

@Doug: To my understanding the HTS adapter employs a six lens construction that magnifies the image circle of the lens attached to it; for me it seems hard to believe that such a construction still yields enough resolution reserves after introducing so many more elements in the "image path". Have you made any tests in this regard? In other words, can the H4d-60 exploit the HTS in a satisfying manner or are tech camera setups still the way to go with regard to ultimate image quality?

With the HTS, the widest HC lens, the 28mm, because more of a 43mm which isn't all that wide for buildings. Now, when stitching the max. that the HTS allows for, what will be the effective field of view when doing a 3 image stitch, say 15 mm left and 15mm right? I don't have an idea how to calculate this ...


Finally, I still don't understand this about the HTS, will I be able to use rise movements in conjunction with shifting?

Thank you very much you all for your friendly comments!

Hi Paul,

You could stitch with the HTS, but the only real benefit is an increase in file size, as due to the magnification factor of the HTS, you are only a little better off compared to the lens you were using on its own.

Yes, the HTS is a six lens construction but (see my posts above) should not be considered in the same way as a 'normal' teleconverter.

In answer to your question, yes the HTS could fully exploit the sensor of the H4D range.

With the 50MP for example, the mount of shift is half the height of the sensor.  That's an easy way to think about it.

The HTS allows for tilt and shift in the same plane.  If you want to separate tilt shift movements, then you are indeed better off with a technical camera.

David


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David Grover
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Hi Jeff,

Please consider two other points.  The HTS was designed specifically with only 5 lenses in mind.  Not the whole H range.  Teleconverters suffer if they have to respond to or work with many different lens types.  The HTS does not, and was optimized for the lenses is supports.

Secondly, it is the only converter of its type which relays data on the movements back to the camera and then subsequently to the software.  Removing, distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting.

In conclusion there is virtually no visible difference between using the HTS or not using the HTS in image quality.  Normally the commenters on this device have not used it in practice.  I would urge anyone with pre-conceived ideas about the HTS to try it for themselves.
Hmm, you can't have it both ways. In another post you say:

Quote
You could stitch with the HTS, but the only real benefit is an increase in file size, as due to the magnification factor of the HTS, you are only a little better off compared to the lens you were using on its own.

which pretty much agrees with my previous statement.

I don't doubt the HTS is very well made, but IMHO it's still a compromise compared to a technical camera, not only in terms of optical quality but also flexibility (greater range and combination of movements on a tech camera).
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2010, 05:27:01 PM »
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Quote from: JeffKohn
Hmm, you can't have it both ways. In another post you say:



which pretty much agrees with my previous statement.

I don't doubt the HTS is very well made, but IMHO it's still a compromise compared to a technical camera, not only in terms of optical quality but also flexibility (greater range and combination of movements on a tech camera).

Ok, so how many of you here have actually worked for any significant time with the HTS? Raise your hands.

As one who shoots both interior and exterior architecture for a living and has for over 30 years, I have no problem shooting with the HTS. Yeah, Hasselblad could use a new wider lens or two than the 28 down the road, but for now, in fact (gasp!), I quite like the HTS, and it's another incredibly useful tool for shooting architecture. After shooting for most of those 30+ years with the likes of a Fuji GX617 system, Linhof Super Technika V, Linhof  Kardan B, Sinar p2 & Arca-Swiss F-Metric, and an ever-changing variety of Goerz, Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor & Fujinon lenses, I have found shooting with the Hasselblad system hardly a devolution from my days shooting with a view camera, nor has it been a limiting factor in terms of versatility, creativity or quality - just the opposite actually. It's been liberating. I'm looking forward to adding a 50MS next month. Huh, go figure.  

Richard
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 06:07:26 PM by rsmphoto » Logged
archivue
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2010, 05:37:16 PM »
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the problem with hasselblad is that they think they can cover all needs with only one camera... the HTS seems to be a good option, but definetly not for architecture !

of course you can make architectural photography with a normal lens... but what's happen when you need to go wide with movements ?

Arca RM3D, Alpa Max, Cambo R-1000 are specifics camera for that purpose, and from a neutral point of view, much better than any hasselblad stuff for now !

I'm shure the HTS is fantastic in others area, but definetly not a universal tool !



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