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Author Topic: Snow Leopard 10.6.3 - Colour Management Fix ?  (Read 22140 times)
Simon J.A. Simpson
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« on: February 27, 2010, 12:14:53 PM »
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MacFixit has posted an article about the beta release of Snow Leopard 10.6.3.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10456...tag=mostDis;dis

Intriguingly, the article lists one "focus areas from this build" as:
•   Improves printing reliability and compatibility with 3rd party printers

Could this be the fix for printing non-colour managed files we are all hoping for ?
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francois
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 12:37:45 AM »
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Quote from: SimonS
MacFixit has posted an article about the beta release of Snow Leopard 10.6.3.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10456...tag=mostDis;dis

Intriguingly, the article lists one "focus areas from this build" as:
•   Improves printing reliability and compatibility with 3rd party printers

Could this be the fix for printing non-colour managed files we are all hoping for ?
I wouldn't bet anything on that, unfortunately.
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Francois
Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 09:06:10 AM »
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Quote from: francois
I wouldn't bet anything on that, unfortunately.

Me either.  But it's always good to have hope !
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 10:38:10 AM »
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Quote from: SimonS
MacFixit has posted an article about the beta release of Snow Leopard 10.6.3.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10456...tag=mostDis;dis

Intriguingly, the article lists one "focus areas from this build" as:
•   Improves printing reliability and compatibility with 3rd party printers

Could this be the fix for printing non-colour managed files we are all hoping for ?

This is not broken in 10.6 only in some Epson drivers.

Doyle
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Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 09:59:14 PM »
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Quote from: DYP
This is not broken in 10.6 only in some Epson drivers.

Doyle
Exactly. It keeps being reported as an issue with the OS, but my understanding is that it is just a matter of driver noncompliance.

Keep checking at the Epson site for patches.
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Marco Ugolini
djoy
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 09:31:25 AM »
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Quote from: Marco Ugolini
Exactly. It keeps being reported as an issue with the OS, but my understanding is that it is just a matter of driver noncompliance.

Depends on who you listen to Marco. Apple engineers have publicly admitted there are "issues" which correlate exactly with what has been disclosed by industry experts working for Adobe. Furthermore other large companies who are outright industry leaders in the Colour Management field have also declared there are issues in 10.6 colour management. We may never fully know the exact cause, and in all likelihood it may be a little bit of everything, OS, software and drivers together.

Some however would have you believe that everything including global warming is Epson's fault, and insist they know the vendor's software better than the vendors themselves, and somehow are right whilst all those experts with actual credentials are wrong.

Anything you read on an internet forum should be taken with a pinch of salt. The mantra of "Do Your Own Research" applies.  
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Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 12:12:23 PM »
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Quote from: djoy
Depends on who you listen to Marco. Apple engineers have publicly admitted there are "issues" which correlate exactly with what has been disclosed by industry experts working for Adobe. Furthermore other large companies who are outright industry leaders in the Colour Management field have also declared there are issues in 10.6 colour management. We may never fully know the exact cause, and in all likelihood it may be a little bit of everything, OS, software and drivers together.

Some however would have you believe that everything including global warming is Epson's fault, and insist they know the vendor's software better than the vendors themselves, and somehow are right whilst all those experts with actual credentials are wrong.

Anything you read on an internet forum should be taken with a pinch of salt. The mantra of "Do Your Own Research" applies.  
Well, I can only say that, so far, I have not had problems profiling printing devices (inkjet and laser) using Snow Leopard. If the problem does indeed exist, I have yet to encounter it.
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Marco Ugolini
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 05:20:36 PM »
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Quote from: Marco Ugolini
Well, I can only say that, so far, I have not had problems profiling printing devices (inkjet and laser) using Snow Leopard. If the problem does indeed exist, I have yet to encounter it.
Snow Leopard is only one part of the equation that is problematic, and in fact this began with Leopard, not Snow leopard. If indeed you are not having problems then either you are printing your targets from an older version of Photoshop, or if using CS4 you aren't profiling an Epson printer.
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 08:04:02 AM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
Snow Leopard is only one part of the equation that is problematic, and in fact this began with Leopard, not Snow leopard. If indeed you are not having problems then either you are printing your targets from an older version of Photoshop, or if using CS4 you aren't profiling an Epson printer.

It would seem that there have been various Apple colorsync difficulties even "pre-Tiger" let alone Leopard or Snow Leopard:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=321964
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=240030
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=117551
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Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
RGB Arts Ltd, London, UK
digitaldog
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 08:18:46 AM »
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Expecting that 10.6 dot anything will fix all the recent, let alone legacy issues is folly. Doesn’t matter who blames who, the facts are, depending on the OS, driver and app, everything can work fine or not. For example, those with issues printing untagged documents in SN in Photoshop and certain Epson drivers could print them fine in Preview. You’d think that points a finger at Adobe but no, other combo’s can work or fail. I suspect there is a number of issues, bug fixes upon bug fixes from one company hoping to help another that have compounded this issue over the years. FWIW, Printer Manages Color falls into this camp of, it might work, it might not work, YMMV.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 12:25:19 PM »
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Quote from: Ionaca
It would seem that there have been various Apple colorsync difficulties even "pre-Tiger" let alone Leopard or Snow Leopard:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=321964
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=240030
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=117551
I see it as a fact of "digital" life that things will not be perfect, and growing pains will be recurrent. And as a sign of a certain maturity to accept that, to some degree.

The question to me is not: "How bad is [Apple, Adobe, etc.]?" but instead "Now that [Apple, Adobe, etc.] knows of the problems, is it moving to address and fix them?".

Also, and possibly as relevant, instead of sitting on my hands steaming over the problems while waiting for a solution to be handed over to me, what can I do to obviate or circumvent them until an OS fix is provided?

My 2 cents.
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Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 02:36:20 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
I suspect there is a number of issues, bug fixes upon bug fixes from one company hoping to help another that have compounded this issue over the years.

Andrew- Entirely possible, but somewhere around 10.6, wouldn't you "assume" that Apple would have created stable, clean code for printing, new APIs or not. If they haven't, then they are the most culpable of the three parties. If they have produced clean code with 10.6 (and 10.6.3 won't contain a "cure") then the next most culpable party is Epson. Really, how hard is it to rewrite the drivers for the Pro printers and maybe the 3800 and 2880, six months after the 10.6 appeared. Lastly, I think Adobe deserves the least amount of blame in this three ring circus. Until Apple and Epson get their sheet together, Adobe (with CR4 and Lightroom) is just patching their bugs. I just wish the "retired" guy with the big stones and the Harley would offer some not so subtle "opinions" on the current state of this issue.
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David
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 08:48:28 PM »
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Quote from: Photo Op
I just wish the "retired" guy with the big stones and the Harley would offer some not so subtle "opinions" on the current state of this issue.

I presume you are talking about me? I don't ride a Harley...I ride a BMW R1200 Adventure (which is a completely different sort of motorcycling experience). I suppose my appearance might induce you to assume I'm a HOG owner...

I know what's going on...I'm not entirely at liberty to say though. The ultimate fault is the Apple with their new API's that prelude the the use of older API's in Photoshop CS4 and now DEMAND that there is no such thing as an "intentionally untagged file". But the short term problem is the fault of the way the driver is reporting to ColorSync...Apple could fix it, Epson could fix it or Adobe could fix it...Adobe is less inclined to do platform specific fixes anymore and Photoshop and the same Epson driver on Windows is fine.

So, will 10.6.3 fix the No Color Management problem with certain Epson driver? I have no idea...you think Apple would pre-disclose anything to anybody? all I can say is we'll see...
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Photo Op
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 03:28:21 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
I presume you are talking about me? I don't ride a Harley.....Apple could fix it, Epson could fix it or Adobe could fix it...Adobe is less inclined to do platform specific fixes anymore and Photoshop and the same Epson driver on Windows is fine.

So, will 10.6.3 fix the No Color Management problem with certain Epson driver? I have no idea...you think Apple would pre-disclose anything to anybody? all I can say is we'll see...

Thanks Jeff. Sorry I got the bike thing wrong. At least there is a recognition of "it" being a fixable issue ("The ultimate fault is the Apple") that someone could "rectify". Here's what I take from the situation. Apple has ONE operating system that they could fix. Epson has a THOUSAND +/- drivers that they could rewrite. Adobe has Photoshop and Lightroom. The first two can play Dumb and Dumber, but I hope Adobe will relent if the other two won't.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 03:36:38 AM by Photo Op » Logged

David
Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 05:30:19 AM »
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Thanks also, Jeff.

My understanding also (restrictions on disclosure also apply to me but I am sure you know a lot more that I !).

Thanks for a blast of common sense and some rational thinking.


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MelHill
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 08:03:48 AM »
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Now, Jeff DID own a Harley at one time.
Wisely, he sold it....
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djoy
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 04:54:07 AM »
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Here in the UK at the moment the "Focus on Imaging" annual photgraphic show is on, think of it as a smaller PMA. I went yesterday and tried to find out anything I could about this issue.

I spoke to an Epson tech guy on their stand, I've spoken to him before and he's a nice guy, he is personally familiar with this issue and told me it is causing him grief as well as it's stopping him profiling papers easily on his own systems etc. He also said, all conspiracy theories aside, Epson really isn't the kind of company who would ignore something like this. He told me drivers have been recompiled for Snow Leopard and submitted to Apple and been approved, and those are what we're using right now, v6 or something. He said those drivers have two modes, colour management on and colour management off and that both those modes are working, so the error of double profiling is not being introduced during their part of the process, the data arriving at the driver has already been managed by colorsync. This we kinda know already. What is clear is that Epson are not going to build in a workaround directly into their drivers for one version of one piece of software, it just wouldn't be a clever thing to do.

I also spoke to two people on the Adobe stand. The first guy I spoke to was very familiar with the problem and it turned out he doesn't actually work for Adobe but was a freelance colour-management consultant brought in for the show. He was just as frustrated as the rest of us, maybe more so, and admitted he uses CS3 to print out the targets. He couldn't tell me anything about whether/when it will be fixed, but he did say he knew that engineers had been told to set aside one day a week to work on "JFI" issues, that is Just Fix It. He also alluded to the fact that CS5 would be coming out this year...

The second guy on the Adobe stand I spoke to wasn't overly familiar with the problem, but he did work for Adobe. He told me that all work on CS4 has been stopped and everyone is working on CS5 and that the problem won't be addressed in CS4.

This is not good news, and I have to admit I'm personally pretty annoyed about it, I don't consider this to be a bug, but a major flaw. If people are having to resort to installing the previous release of the software just to perform a task they should expect to easily perform, that is not a minor bug, no matter who the fault lies with.

Apple were not present at the show.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 04:54:53 AM by djoy » Logged
Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 01:02:11 PM »
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Quote from: djoy
He was just as frustrated as the rest of us, maybe more so, and admitted he uses CS3 to print out the targets.

[...]

The second guy on the Adobe stand I spoke to wasn't overly familiar with the problem, but he did work for Adobe. He told me that all work on CS4 has been stopped and everyone is working on CS5 and that the problem won't be addressed in CS4.
Hold it...how is this a Mac OS problem if it doesn't manifest itself when using CS3?

Instead, following simple logic, wouldn't that point to problems with how Adobe implemented the print functions in CS4 rather than to problems at the OS or Epson driver levels?
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Marco Ugolini
Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2010, 02:18:18 PM »
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Quote from: Marco Ugolini
Hold it...how is this a Mac OS problem if it doesn't manifest itself when using CS3?

Instead, following simple logic, wouldn't that point to problems with how Adobe implemented the print functions in CS4 rather than to problems at the OS or Epson driver levels?

Marco

Of all people I would have surely thought that you would know that PSCS4 uses Apple's new printing path while CS3 uses the old path.

The new printing path is where the problem is when printer drivers or applications (witness LR3 beta) are not written correctly which manifests itself with double profiling. So is Epson totally to blame for this, I doubt it.

As in my statement about LR3 beta where with Canon drivers that work correctly with LR2 and PSCS4 they do not work correctly with the LR3 Beta. Now whose fault is that? And this brings up an even bigger can of worms because apparently some Epson drivers work correctly with LR3 beta and do not double profile.

As for Apple, why do they insist with the new printing path that when application manages color is chosen the drivers (are supposed to) default to no colormangement, instead of the way the old printing path worked and let the user (or forces the user to) make these choices. Now whose fault is that?

So I am thinking this is a matter of trying to idiot proof color managed printing, and everybody seems to be chasing a moving target. Fix one problem for one vendor and screwup one for another.

Apple just give us all the choices back in the printer drivers like the old path was. THAT WORKED FINE!

Doyle
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:19:50 PM by DYP » Logged
Marco Ugolini
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2010, 04:45:11 PM »
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Quote from: DYP
Marco

Of all people I would have surely thought that you would know that PSCS4 uses Apple's new printing path while CS3 uses the old path.
Mmmm..."of all people"? You know me that well?

No, I do not keep up with all the latest gossip. I'm lucky to have you to straighten me out...  :-)

Quote
The new printing path is where the problem is when printer drivers or applications (witness LR3 beta) are not written correctly which manifests itself with double profiling. So is Epson totally to blame for this, I doubt it.
Help me here: the application or driver are not written correctly for the OS's new printing path, but that is Apple's fault?

Quote
So I am thinking this is a matter of trying to idiot proof color managed printing, and everybody seems to be chasing a moving target. Fix one problem for one vendor and screwup one for another.
Right. There is nothing wrong in trying to make the procedure less complex, as long as it doesn't create additional problems in place of the ones that it allegedly solves.

Let's not be too harsh and accusatory, though: as long as an effective, relatively simple workaround is still possible, the finger-pointing should only go so far, after which it turns sour and unproductive.
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Marco Ugolini
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