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Author Topic: z3100ps Hahnemuhle prints too dark  (Read 2192 times)
robmaci
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« on: March 03, 2010, 07:41:08 AM »
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I recently bought a nice sample pack of hahnemuhle papers but am having royal trouble getting a nice print.  Being that I only have one try (one page to use as a profiling page, one as the print), I'm getting a little miffed.  I printed on both Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Satin and they both look very dark and orange.  It shouldn't happen if I first make an ICC profile print right?  Where does anyone suggest I go from here?
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 07:57:49 AM »
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Do you seriously expect a sensible answer to this based on the information you provided? Do you understand enough about what a colour-managed workflow is so you would know what information you should provide in order to get efficient troubleshooting assistance?

And what is a "profile print"? Did you actually generate your own custom profile for each of the papers, install them and use them?

Totally unclear.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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robmaci
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 10:47:30 AM »
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Ok, let me clarify,
  I am using an HP z3100ps 44" printer.  I created an ICC profile using the printer.  Printing on one of the Fine Art Pearl papers, it prints a color chart, dries it, and scans it in order to verify exactly how to properly print a photo on that paper.  However, once I print a photo on the next piece of Fine Art Pearl paper, it comes out very dark and orange.  
I did not expect this to happen after creating an ICC profile.

Is there something I am missing?  I've used this process to create profiles for all the papers I've used before and it worked very well.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 11:01:37 AM »
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OK, thanks for explaining that context. As I don't use that printer, I don't know it so I am not well-positioned to advise what has gone wrong. On the surface it sounds to me as if the printer may not be using the profile it created, for reasons I wouldn't understand. You may wish to call HP's tech support and let them take you through a diagnostic to see whether the problem is with the printer, or with some step in the process which you may not be getting right. (One thing which comes to mind is that usually (i.e. at least for the Epson printers) one needs to select a paper type in the printer driver's menu of options which corresponds most closey with the type of paper you are using for making the profile, and then stick with that paper selection when you make the prints, but getting that wrong wouldn't necessarily produce the extent of the disconnect you seem to be converying here.)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Colorwave
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 11:48:05 AM »
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I have the exact same printer.  The process with a new paper is two-fold.  First you need to calibrate the media, then create a profile after the calibration.  The calibration linearizes the printer to ensure even and smooth tonal ramps from dark to light.  After calibration, I use APS for profiling, but the process is the same for using the standard profiling system without APS.  If you have succeeded in doing something with only one letter size sheet, I would imagine that all you have done is calibrated the printer, which means you would need to use a preexisting profile from Hahnemuhle or another source to go with your paper calibration.  I know that APS needs a much larger area for printing patches than a single letter size sheet, and think that the standard profiling process does, too.  

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get anywhere with testing new papers with only two sheets to work with, beyond seeing what the paper surface looks like and what it looks like inked.  Getting a representative image with only those two sheets is nearly impossible.  Just as a double check, are you certain that you have printed on the good side of the paper?  Is the surface of the Pearl and Satin paper slightly sheeny?  

As an aside, these are both very nice papers and if you like the surface, should eventually get great prints out of your printer with them.  The PR Satin is not a paper for every image.  I don't like the posterization effect with high contrast photos, for instance, but for images with more uniform or lighter tonalities, I think the image quality is very unique and pleasing.  With HP's black and white inks only, printed with printer managed color, the pure carbon inks on the Satin paper take on a beautiful warm metallic bronze tone that I love.
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dandeliondigital
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 12:20:34 PM »
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hi robmaci,
My 2 cents:

Well you need more than 2 sheets because the printer first requires you to calibrate the paper, and then profile it.

I would recommend using Hahnemuehler Profiles if you are so strapped for paper. Go to their website. They have papers for the HPZ 3100ps.

In the future you better buy at least 2 sampler packs to get anything acomplished.

So long for now, TOM

Quote from: robmaci
I recently bought a nice sample pack of hahnemuhle papers but am having royal trouble getting a nice print.  Being that I only have one try (one page to use as a profiling page, one as the print), I'm getting a little miffed.  I printed on both Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Satin and they both look very dark and orange.  It shouldn't happen if I first make an ICC profile print right?  Where does anyone suggest I go from here?
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robmaci
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 12:53:50 PM »
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Thanks everybody.  I'm a little foggy on the difference between calibrating a paper, and profiling it - Thought they were the same thing.  I'll give HP a call and see what I can come up with.

Thanks again for the input!

Rob
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Colorwave
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 01:24:06 PM »
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Quote from: robmaci
Thanks everybody.  I'm a little foggy on the difference between calibrating a paper, and profiling it - Thought they were the same thing.
Rob
Short answer:  Calibration only looks at varying densities of the 11 inks without mixing, and makes sure that the printer makes smooth transitions from minimum to maximum densities of each color.  It is something you need to redo periodically, as thermal heads, like HP and Canon (vs. piezo heads, like Epson) have a tendency to drift over time and need correction.  This gives the printer a basic signature for each paper stock and establishes a constant that can be maintained.  Traditionally, this process is called linearization in most circles.  Profiling is more complex, and involves the blending of the different ink colors and many more patches that are analyzed.  This process creates the ICC profile that you want to use when you tell Photoshop or your RIP how to rasterize the file for your particular paper, using application managed color.  It is the true "fingerprint" of each media, and does not need to be repeated, if it was done after calibrating the printer.  The profile can be done onboard HP printer, or can be done by a third party.  Calibration is machine specific.
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robmaci
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 11:06:49 AM »
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Thanks again for the explanation.

Here is the problem.  Do I need to make my own ICC profile if you can download them from the Hahnemuhle site?  If they are printer specific, then why are ICC profiles available for download?  As far as I've been able to tell, to make an ICC profile, I can only ask the printer to do it.  It does it automatically.  No?  As far as this printer goes, making an ICC profile has been insanely simple, so I'm always confused when people talk about how complicated it is.  It has been so automatic on the z3100 that when I hit a problem like this, there seems to be no option to fix anything.

That said, I downloaded a profile from the Hahnemuhle site, and installed it.  In the Printer Utility, I was asked to install the ICC profile, give it a name and then the printer would be "Calibrated" which only required an 8x10 paper.  It would not print anything bigger on any larger paper, as it only prints the full sized color chart when I'm MAKING an ICC profile.  Here, I already have it and am installing it.  

And as stated before the results are terrible.  

I suppose the answer to this is to buy a tonne of paper and make my own profiles instead of downloading them.  it's just too bad I can't do this without spending alot of money.

Thanks again for the help
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 11:09:24 AM by robmaci » Logged
Colorwave
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 02:16:14 AM »
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Rob-
Regarding the difference in your custom profile vs. a canned profile, I'd say that there is no absolute answer.  The quality of the profiling software certainly makes a difference, and high end profiling systems are more sophisticated than the base profiles from Z printers.  A custom profile, however, is also an advantage, as you could use an analogy that an Armani suit off the rack might fit you quite well, but a tailor might be able to improve the fit even more to fit your specific body shape. Profiles for different HP Z printers would show very little differences, but a manufacturers profile is usually generic to all brands and models.   If you are using application managed color and getting poor prints, though, it is most likely not the profile at fault.  When you mention making profiles on your machine, is it producing patches of blended colors, or just different values of the 11 colors?  I don't use the base profiling, so I don't know the exact nomenclature.  I know that calibration is not profiling, and thought that even the smallest base profiles needed larger than a letter sized sheet to create.  I'd be willing to email you one of mine, made with HP APS, if you want to tell me which Hahnemuhle papers and would like to see if there is a difference.
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robmaci
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2010, 06:03:05 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Rob-
Regarding the difference in your custom profile vs. a canned profile, I'd say that there is no absolute answer.  The quality of the profiling software certainly makes a difference, and high end profiling systems are more sophisticated than the base profiles from Z printers.  A custom profile, however, is also an advantage, as you could use an analogy that an Armani suit off the rack might fit you quite well, but a tailor might be able to improve the fit even more to fit your specific body shape. Profiles for different HP Z printers would show very little differences, but a manufacturers profile is usually generic to all brands and models.   If you are using application managed color and getting poor prints, though, it is most likely not the profile at fault.  When you mention making profiles on your machine, is it producing patches of blended colors, or just different values of the 11 colors?  I don't use the base profiling, so I don't know the exact nomenclature.  I know that calibration is not profiling, and thought that even the smallest base profiles needed larger than a letter sized sheet to create.  I'd be willing to email you one of mine, made with HP APS, if you want to tell me which Hahnemuhle papers and would like to see if there is a difference.


That'd be great to try!  If you have them, I have still yet to print on
Photo Rag Baryta
Photo Rag Pearl
Fine Art Baryta
Baryta FB
Daguerre Canvas
Monet Canvas

Thanks a bunch!
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