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Author Topic: Now for the Bonus round question ! i1xtreme UV or NON UV system & why ?  (Read 9187 times)
Scott Martin
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 09:15:35 AM »
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Yesterday I did some testing with an iSis (which allows both measurements, and idea situation) using Premium Luster. A UV and non UV profile produce very similar results viewed in a GTI booth. I also did some work a year ago, again with the iSis profiling a digital press that had a very high OBA content (think a b*of -6)! Again, the results were preferable with the no cut measurements in PROFILER (which has no UV compensation when building profiles)
If we expand the range of experience to include a variety of RIPs, PROFILER's linearization process, and a broader range profiling applications and printers (solvent, UV curable, silver halide, dye-sub, etc) you'll start to see more reasons to have one or the other. Many linearization applications produce better results when a UV filtered (or UVex) device is used. I travel around the country (and occasionally outside) with a case full of spectros (capable of UVin or UVex measurements) helping demanding clients with color management and workflow issues. I work with a huge variety of printers and software applications - practically everything on the market.  I find practical, real-world reasons to use UVex over UVin measurements most of the time. Sometimes you've got to ignore the theory and do some side-by-side comparisons and let the results speak for themselves. Even some papers without OBAs, like metallic silver halide papers for example, linearize and profile better with UVex measurements. On the other hand, some toner based processes linearize and profile better with a UVin measurements. Some software applications currently use UVin compensation while others don't and that dictates what device one should use. In addition, we're about to see a whole new generation of pro level profiling software that could change the way we think about UVin or UVex measurements.

So I think it's important to ask what printing processes and software applications one will be using in order to recommend one or the other as the answers will likely point toward one or the other. For those that can afford it, the iSis with the OBC kit is clearly the most versatile choice at this time, if you don't need to measure super thick materials that it can't handle.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2010, 09:31:48 AM »
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Quote from: Onsight
So I think it's important to ask what printing processes and software applications one will be using in order to recommend one or the other as the answers will likely point toward one or the other. For those that can afford it, the iSis with the OBC kit is clearly the most versatile choice at this time, if you don't need to measure super thick materials that it can't handle.

Interesting. If you narrow the application down to just large format inkjet printing (Canon IPFx100, and now the x300... Epson x900, etc.) what has your experience been with regards to hardware vs. software UV filtration (using papers both with an without OBAs)?

Cheers, Joe
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 09:41:03 AM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
Interesting. If you narrow the application down to just large format inkjet printing (Canon IPFx100, and now the x300... Epson x900, etc.) what has your experience been with regards to hardware vs. software UV filtration (using papers both with an without OBAs)?
Are you just profiling with driver usage? If so, with which software? Or are you using a RIP, and if so, which one?
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2010, 09:47:14 AM »
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And are you printing fine art work for "pleasing color" or are you involved with any spot color matching? Are you trying to get gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with or are you trying to hit "Coca Cola Red" for example, for clients?
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shewhorn
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 10:14:52 AM »
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Are you just profiling with driver usage? If so, with which software? Or are you using a RIP, and if so, which one?

and...

Quote from: Onsight
And are you printing fine art work for "pleasing color" or are you involved with any spot color matching? Are you trying to get gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with or are you trying to hit "Coca Cola Red" for example, for clients?

Manufacturer's drivers (Epson and Canon drivers, no RIP (it would seem to me that the general consensus is that the manufacturing tolerances and consistency of large format printers from unit to unit is good enough now that as far as fine art prints are concerned there's no real advantage to using  RIP although experience has taught me that as I gain experience I'm able to see differences that I previously wasn't able to see...)), profling with Eye One Match for fine art work for "pleasing color" (gorgeous prints that everyone falls in love with) BUT... I'm also curious to hear about the challenges presented by other applications.

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 10:15:53 AM by shewhorn » Logged
Scott Martin
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2010, 10:29:20 AM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
Manufacturer's drivers profiling with Eye One Match for fine art work for "pleasing color"
Since EOM uses software based OBA correction you won't see a difference when using a UVin or UVex device. If you wanted to make spot measurements of the paper itself using EyeOneShare, a regular non-filtered EyeOne will graph the effects of the OBAs that the UV Cut won't. I keep my regular EyeOnePro around particularly for these spot measurements.

Looking at the bigger picture, the choice of profiling software you choose will have a greater effect on the quality of your prints than UV filtration. Monaco PROFILER, IMO, will produce a preferable gray balance, shadow and edge gamut detail. Now isn't the best time to buy as another solution is getting close to coming to market.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2010, 11:22:52 AM »
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Quote from: Onsight
Now isn't the best time to buy as another solution is getting close to coming to market.

Thank you... very interesting (especially the quoted part). I specifically went with the UV cut as I wanted the option to be able to use alternative software that wasn't able to filter UV in software... just some options. Either way I foresee a future need for something a little more automated (an iSis perhaps) so I can always sell the i1 Pro UV cut or hold on to it as a backup. For the time being it's doing the job I need it to do.

Dyin' to ask more questions about this other solution but, I know how that goes! :-)

Cheers, Joe
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Studio2bn
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2010, 12:53:06 PM »
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Thanks again guys for all the input and help you have given here....it has been a great learning experience .....


Here is what I have and where I hope to go...

1) I have " NO RIP " .....I am using printer drivers only...( Honestly, I can not afford a new RIP system and the i1Xtreme or similar device at this time)

2) I have the NEC 2690WUXI......with the Spectraview II...I Love this monitor and the Spectraview II....but as we know it is limited to calibrating the Monitor only

3) I print with an Epson 9800....K3 Ultrachromes....I NEVER use 3rd party inks !!!

4) To this point I have only used the ICC profiles provided by the Vendors

Considering what I have to work with I have been very fortunate with the response of the few Artists/Photographers that I have been printing for....However, " I " feel that there is room for growth and improvement with my printing skills and the level of control that I have .....I want to take this to the next level because when " I " look at the results " I " know that it could be better....Hence the search for something like the X-Rite i1Xtreme......I am starting to run into more and more Artists that prefer various/differing  Papers & canvases.....and situations that have made me feel that I need more knownledge....better control......and better printing skills to deal with some of these Artists at the next level....

I am trying to figure out how I can move to the next level....learning how/have more control of my end products.....I just want to become a better printer.....and seperate myself from any of the other local printers and "Sign" printers who think they are Fine Art printers !!!

Are most of the Artists happy with my work...Yes.....Do I see where there can be room for improvement....Yes........

So...give me guidance....Ye Ole Gurus of the vast world of Color control and Professional Printing !!!

Thanks again
 
J Michael Gill
Studio2bn@cox.net
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2010, 01:22:24 PM »
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Quote from: probep
Sorry, did you read http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/Us...e-FWA-content,9 ?
I do confirm that it's imposible to emulate i1Pro UVcut thoroughly.

I did. And I would say the better approach is to remove a component that has been measured than to add a component that isn't measured. Both remain simulations but you may have noticed the observation that UV cut spectrometers actually give values below 420nm that they can't measure. So with UV cut spectrometers + profile creators that simulate UV spectrometer results the simulation builds on top of another simulation.

I bought an Eye 1 basic without UV filter because my Spectrocam seemed to get more deviations. I actually start to wonder whether the Spectrocam may have been just more accurate to all kinds of fluorescence effects due to its Xenon flash that has a closer match to daylight than all the other spectrometers. The discussion you gave the link for doesn't give me more confidence on what spectrometers actually read.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2010, 01:38:46 PM »
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Quote from: Studio2bn
I want to take this to the next level because when " I " look at the results " I " know that it could be better....
While I do think that superb custom PROFILER profiles might be a nice subtle step to take at some point I don't think that custom profiles via EyeOneMatch would be worthwhile. Instead you might consider focusing your attention on little details like localized contrast enhancement and print sharpening. Take a workshop, get critiqued, get inspired, investigate different presentation techniques, try some new papers, print coatings, etc... Sometimes we think that buying something will fill a void but nothing does that like inspiration and quality learning experiences.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 02:28:39 PM »
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Quote from: Onsight
While I do think that superb custom PROFILER profiles might be a nice subtle step to take at some point I don't think that custom profiles via EyeOneMatch would be worthwhile. Instead you might consider focusing your attention on little details like localized contrast enhancement and print sharpening. Take a workshop, get critiqued, get inspired, investigate different presentation techniques, try some new papers, print coatings, etc... Sometimes we think that buying something will fill a void but nothing does that like inspiration and quality learning experiences.

It has always been my experience that education paired with good old experimentation go way beyond the gear in terms of improving results. My most productive learning always seems to come out of trying to realize as much potential as I possibly can from extremely limited tools. This kind of experimentation is what often leads to more creative uses of tools and that experience often translates to new tools when you upgrade.

Cheers, Joe
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Studio2bn
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 04:19:54 PM »
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Once again Thanks to all of you for taking your time and sharing your wisdom with me.....


Both Scott Martin/ Onsight...... and Joe /Shewhorn......... are closer to the truth....both well put and closer to reality than anything I have heard .....and for that I thank you both.....and here is why....

I delivered a set of proofs today....For a new artist I had met recently and I had really wondered if I could meet her expectations....she came in ...picked up the prints....walked around looking at them....walked outside and looked at them for 30 minutes or so...and I am thinking oh well....she comes back in...lays the prints down and says " Well, you have managed to to something that no other printer has been able to do....these are perfect !!! " And has placed a fairly large order.........After she left...I started thinking about what all the other Artists had said about my work.....and both you guys are right.....I just need to look inwardly a little more.... learn to use my equipment to its maximum potential ....broaden my scope of materials....finishes...presentations ....I believe that I was "Over Thinking" this entire ordeal !!! I guess sometimes our expectations we place on ourselves become over the top......So, I am just going to continue to study....understand my equipment...my substrates...finishes etc a lot better....and see where it leads me .....because from the feedback that I have gotten from the Artists...maybe I am doing better than I thought I was !!!

Ok.....you guys just saved me about $1500.00 !!! So, what do you want for your Birthday !!!!!!


I appreciate you and your help.......

J Michael Gill.........
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 05:00:38 PM by Studio2bn » Logged
shewhorn
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 07:51:56 PM »
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Quote from: Studio2bn
Ok.....you guys just saved me about $1500.00 !!! So, what do you want for your Birthday !!!!!!

A Canon IPF8300  ... actually already have that one on pre-order.

Speaking of pre-ordering... I just ordered this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Color-Management-Und...2027&sr=8-1

I'm looking for more technical resources to expand my knowledge base and that book caught my eye... it's supposed to be released on April 5th. Also picked up this one as well which was in stock (released January of 2009):

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Color-Manage...=pd_sim_sbs_b_3

Light reading! LOL

Cheers, Joe
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 11:45:13 PM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
A Canon IPF8300  ... actually already have that one on pre-order.
I've used it - great machine - lots of refinements. Love the new inks and scratch resistance. The improved gamut is a little smaller than Epson's HDR inkset in the highlights but is larger in the deepest (darkest) tones - especially in the blues. As a night photographer I'm particularly excited about those deep saturated colors! The new precision dot mode actually increases the gamut even further by placing the lighter ink dots down after the darker ink dots. Fun to look at under a loupe. I've got a review in the works...
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shewhorn
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2010, 09:30:11 AM »
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Quote from: Onsight
I've used it - great machine - lots of refinements. Love the new inks and scratch resistance. The improved gamut is a little smaller than Epson's HDR inkset in the highlights but is larger in the deepest (darkest) tones - especially in the blues. As a night photographer I'm particularly excited about those deep saturated colors! The new precision dot mode actually increases the gamut even further by placing the lighter ink dots down after the darker ink dots. Fun to look at under a loupe. I've got a review in the works...

I'm even more excited about it now!!! I was on Ilford's site last night and noticed they had a profile up for the IPF6350 so I was checking out the Ilford GSF profiles in Color Think for the 6100, 6350 and Epson 7900. Looks like Canon has done a great job with the new inks.

Cheers, Joe
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Studio2bn
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2010, 09:38:23 AM »
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For Scott at Onsight...

In reference to a statement you made earlier......" A better solution is coming to market " Can you tell us a little more on what that solution is ....


J Michael
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2010, 09:39:53 AM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
I'm even more excited about it now!!! I was on Ilford's site last night and noticed they had a profile up for the IPF6350 so I was checking out the Ilford GSF profiles in Color Think for the 6100, 6350 and Epson 7900. Looks like Canon has done a great job with the new inks.
And you can download a "Media Configuration File" (MCF) that allows "Ilford Gold Fibre Silk" to show up in the printer driver and on the printer as a media type. That MCF file contains lots of preferences about the handling of the paper (head positioning, suction, ink limits, etc). While the "special" media types were nice to use on the previous printers with 3rd party papers, this solution is even better. Of course, HP has had this for years...
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2010, 09:43:11 AM »
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Quote from: Studio2bn
In reference to a statement you made earlier......" A better solution is coming to market " Can you tell us a little more on what that solution is
Sorry, no, except that it will replace several pro-level color management applications available today.
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probep
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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2010, 10:19:13 AM »
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Quote from: Onsight
Sorry, no, except that it will replace several pro-level color management applications available today.
X-Rite Prism technology, I think.

Prism major functionalities:
Monitor profile generation
Projector profile generation
Printer CMYK profile generation with auto black generation
Printer RGB profile generation
Printer CMYK profile generation with advanced options to adjust black generation
Printer CMYK+N profile generation (N<=4)
Printer profile generation from iteration
Optical Brightener Compensation
Small test chart (Munki API�s)
Spot color iteration
Device transforms for conversion of color data using ICC profiles
Delta E calculation
Harmonies
Spectral blends
Color extraction from image
Centroid functions and auto naming
Hilbert indexing (use for ordering colors)
Color conversation (not device specific)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:32:17 AM by probep » Logged
N Walker
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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2010, 03:30:39 PM »
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ProBep

I profiled a printer for a photographer, of Pirelli Calender fame, for his major London Exhibition (predominantly daylight displayed). I have one of the B+W fine art prints (made from my profile) that the photographer in question took of David Bailey in the 80's - printed from a B+W file with colour inks on a large format Epson printer in his studios (Pre B+W printer advancements) - it is beautifully rich and neutral to the eye - the acid test AFAIK.

If so and if you use Eye-one Match, what is the reason to buy i1Pro (without UV filter)?

I purchased a non UV Eye One Pro to calibrate my monitor and printer. I purchased my Eye One pro kit 9 years ago and learnt through practice and experimentation to produce very tight profiles using Eye One Match (also free component parts from ProfileMaker V4 onwards in conjunction with Bill Atkinson's profiles).

However I am all ears open and willing to learn from those who 'know' what they are talking about.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 03:48:43 PM by Nick Walker » Logged

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