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Author Topic: Basic colour management question  (Read 4347 times)
AdrianRogers
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« on: March 04, 2010, 11:01:12 AM »
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A little while ago I noticed an 'Open in Adobe Photoshop CS4' option when outputting files through C1.5. Brilliant, I thought. Saves another step.

However as the image is now jumping between two programs almost immediately, I'm noticing a colour/tone change I didn't notice before (It was always there, just easier to spot now it's switching instantaneously). The colours are just ever so slightly washed out when in Photoshop. Shadows are a touch darker in C1 and there is just a little more vibrance and punch.

Now C1s colour space options seem a little limited at best, so I'm trying to work out where the difference is. Proof in C1 is set to Adobe 1998 as is my colour settings in CS4. Rendering intent is set to Relative Colorimetric in both programs (Though Photoshop also gives you the option of using black point compensation - Is this on or off by default in C1?)

They are very, very close, I'm just wondering if I'm missing a setting somewhere?
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Joe Behar
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2010, 11:25:32 AM »
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Quote from: AdrianRogers
A little while ago I noticed an 'Open in Adobe Photoshop CS4' option when outputting files through C1.5. Brilliant, I thought. Saves another step.

However as the image is now jumping between two programs almost immediately, I'm noticing a colour/tone change I didn't notice before (It was always there, just easier to spot now it's switching instantaneously). The colours are just ever so slightly washed out when in Photoshop. Shadows are a touch darker in C1 and there is just a little more vibrance and punch.

Now C1s colour space options seem a little limited at best, so I'm trying to work out where the difference is. Proof in C1 is set to Adobe 1998 as is my colour settings in CS4. Rendering intent is set to Relative Colorimetric in both programs (Though Photoshop also gives you the option of using black point compensation - Is this on or off by default in C1?)

They are very, very close, I'm just wondering if I'm missing a setting somewhere?

Adrian,

I would ask one question first. Is it possible that the differences you are seeing are due to the background colours being different between C1 Pro and Photoshop?

The other thing to consider is that if you are viewing the images at anything other than 100% C1 Pro and Photoshop will render them slightly differently. Do you see the same differences with both images at 100%?


Sounds like you have all your setting correct
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AdrianRogers
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2010, 12:29:18 PM »
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Hi Joe,

I did consider that so changed C1s appearance to a lighter grey. It seemed a little different so thought I might have had it, but then viewed the shadows at 100% (As that's where the largest different seems to be occuring). There is a very obvious difference, even more so than fit-to-view. C1 shadows are much darker. I can see creases in a shirt in CS4 I cannot in C1.

Any other ideas? Or is this just another program idiosyncrasy we have to account for?  
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tho_mas
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 12:56:24 PM »
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Quote from: AdrianRogers
Any other ideas?
Photoshop uses its own CMM ("ACE") whereas C1 uses the systems CMM (Color Sync resp. Apple CMM on MAC). Both CMMs produce almost identical results. However ACE uses black point compensation for the conversion to the monitor profile whereas Color Sync / Apple CMM does not (even if you set "Apple CMM" in Photoshop this does NOT apply to the monitor view - only to all other color space conversions).
Now if your monitor is calibrated and the black point stored in the monitor profile is not L*0 there may be a slight difference in the darkest tonal values.

Check this: compare the C1 preview to the processed TIF opened in Apples "preview" - they should match dead on.
You can also check this: use the standard monitor profile provided by the manufacturer (which has most likely a black point value of L*0) - C1 and Photoshop should match.
If they don't match even in these tests there's something else going wrong.
But if they match there's nothing you can do... the BPC in Color Sync and Photoshop is simply different.

Create a support case at Phase One and put in a feature request for a switchable CMM in C1 (so that we can utilze "Adobe CMM").
I know they are planing to incorporate a switchable CMM long term (I know as I was asking for this feature a while ago). However it probably helps to speed up things when many users ask for such a feature.


edit:

here a comparision of screenshots - preview|capture one|photoshop - with the calibrated monitor profile (black point is not L*0):
http://drop.io/gbu95jz/asset/cal-jpg

and here the same with the manufacturers profile (black point is L*0):
http://drop.io/gbu95jz/asset/werk-jpg

(click on "download" to see the images fullrez)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 01:28:46 PM by tho_mas » Logged
AdrianRogers
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2010, 01:28:12 PM »
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Hi Thomas,

I'm not on an Apple machine, I'm on a PC in Vista64. I presume that means C1 isn't using Apples CMM? Not sure if the excerise is the same as opening in Apple Preview but opening in Windows photo gallery also shows a difference, though not the same difference as Photoshop. Blimey all this window switching is making me feel funny!

I shall create a support case at Phase One. Sounds like an obvious enough feature to implement!
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tho_mas
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2010, 01:33:27 PM »
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okay, sorry.
I don't know how Windows translates the colors. Maybe you can enable BPC in WCS... I don't know. But if so it doesn't mean necessarily that the BPC is the same as in Adobes CMM.
I could enable AdobeCMM on my Windows computer back in the days. But that was on XP. On XP the CMM was adressed by tags in the profiles.
So when a profile contained the tag "adbe" for the preferred CMM C1 adressed AdobeCMM. But I don't know if this still is working on Vista ...
(but, as far as I remember correctly, that also didn't apply to the monitor profile... just to output related color conversions).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 01:36:02 PM by tho_mas » Logged
imagetone
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 02:01:00 PM »
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I have had the same problem you describe Adrian. The last time I discussed it with a Phase One tech, the only thing they identified as possibly being an issue in my setup (Mac) was that the monitor profile black point was not as low as expected, which might tie in with the explanation tho_mas has given (thank-you).  I will re-profile the monitor to see if gives a different profile.
Tony May
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AdrianRogers
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2010, 07:21:09 AM »
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Quote from: imagetone
I have had the same problem you describe Adrian. The last time I discussed it with a Phase One tech, the only thing they identified as possibly being an issue in my setup (Mac) was that the monitor profile black point was not as low as expected, which might tie in with the explanation tho_mas has given (thank-you).  I will re-profile the monitor to see if gives a different profile.
Tony May

Hi Tony,

Interesting. I wonder how low a black point Capture1 expects the screen to be. Mine is 0.09cd/m2!
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TomCollins
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 08:10:28 PM »
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Long time listener, first time caller. I too have the same problem and it's been driving me nuts. It doesn't look like 5.2 fixes the problem. I'm sure many more people have the same problem, they just never noticed.
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