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Author Topic: ColorChecker Passport / Adobe DNG profiling in Lightroom 3(beta)  (Read 7025 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 02:31:39 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Agreed ... that's all I want, too ... quick access to the profiles at the top.

I made a presets folder, but I would rather go up and down than have the whole left side open just to enable that access.

Yes, that’s a good workaround (make a preset that only selects the DNG profile). The only issue is, at least for me, the preset list is getting really, really big and long. A popup would reduce the size of the list and I think would encourage users to select a profile early in the process which I find useful. The old mantra was to work top down (and in ACR top down, left to right). Having the DNG profile selection at the bottom somewhat flies in the face of that sound advise. Putting a popup at the top (in Library as well) would clarify this.
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Andrew Rodney
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Schewe
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 04:15:36 PM »
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Quote from: Ellis Vener
3) I'm not flailing about when I change to a different profile. I am doing it with purpose, your characterization of why I or other people use it is off base and unwarranted.


Never sat over your should while you were editing in Camera Raw or Lightroom, but....it's bee my experience that "most people" (huge generalization I admit) go to the DNG profiles section when they are flummoxed at trying to deal with color correction–particularly certain color rendering such as red, green and blue...some people also use the camera vendor profiles as a "variations" filter to see a variety of color renderings before deciding what they want. When I open an image in ACR or LR, I already pretty much know exactly what I want the image to look like and know what tools to use to achieve it.

I'm not saying that's really bad to simply "play" mind you, but relying upon the DNG profiles to be something other than what they were designed to do isn't optimal. The DNG profiles are NOT designed to be color correction tools...there's a bunch of other tools for that.

Aside from my P-65+ (which doesn't really HAVE a real "Adobe Standard" DNG profile cause Eric hasn't done one yet) I've found no reason to do custom DNG profiles for my Canon 1DsMIII, Rebel 500 nor my s90. I have made a dual illuminate DNG profile for my P-65+ in DNG Profile Editor (I tried the Passport software but I could never get the 2nd P-65+ DNG open–it just blows up...seems the Passport software doesn't like multiple 60 MP DNGs).

I do accept that if you are shooting very specific product colors and you need to make sure "John Deere Green" is John Deere green, then doing a custom DNG profile and doing a specific green edit is the way to go. The is a very good use of the DNG Editor...

So, the prospect of altering the usability to make it easier to select DNG profiles in order to "see what's best" won't get a lot of traction (although ironically, I think it was Eric Chan that first brought up the possibility of adding a DNG profile dropdown in the Quick Develop and the "Basic" panesl...) As I recall, Eric kinda got shot down...

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digitaldog
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2010, 05:07:15 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
(although ironically, I think it was Eric Chan that first brought up the possibility of adding a DNG profile dropdown in the Quick Develop and the "Basic" panesl...) As I recall, Eric kinda got shot down...

That’s what I recall too and its a shame. I don’t see what harm it would do to move the profile selection higher, especially thanks to the work Eric has done with respect to profile creation and editing. The rest of the area should be way down below (buried for user protection).
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Andrew Rodney
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http://digitaldog.net/
Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 06:44:57 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
So, the prospect of altering the usability to make it easier to select DNG profiles in order to "see what's best" won't get a lot of traction (although ironically, I think it was Eric Chan that first brought up the possibility of adding a DNG profile dropdown in the Quick Develop and the "Basic" panesl...) As I recall, Eric kinda got shot down...

Bummer.  I don't think that is reflective of the way people work ... or at least the way I've come to work in Lightroom.

How am I supposed to apply D2x Mode 1 to images with prominent skin tones and Adobe Standard to others before I get to the develop module?

What if I don't like how D2x Mode 1 impacted the grass and sky and I think it might look better using Adobe Standard?

... and BTW ... I helped build a very successful software company and I am in the process of building a new one ... my whole job is to call bullshit on engineers who say things are too hard ... so I won't give up on the re-orderable panels just yet ...  
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Schewe
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 09:42:54 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
How am I supposed to apply D2x Mode 1 to images with prominent skin tones and Adobe Standard to others before I get to the develop module?


Learn to use presets which you can apply upon import or in the Library module...

Quote
and BTW ... I helped build a very successful software company and I am in the process of building a new one ... my whole job is to call bullshit on engineers who say things are too hard ... so I won't give up on the re-orderable panels just yet

Good for you...means nothing on a project the scale of Lightroom....

I see this all the time, people who work in the software industry thinking that some sort of work "experience" somehow gives them the right to make proclamations over the way "whatever" software application is developed...ya know, until you've gone through the process of starting at ground zero and actually developing an award winning application (or even a plug-in) don't even try to bring your creds to the table. Seriously, "software" doesn't mean diddly squat...try developing a REAL imaging application...that'll give you warts!
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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 10:42:22 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Learn to use presets which you can apply upon import or in the Library module...

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't know how to take a card from my camera and apply different presets at import to the ones with skin tones than the preset applied to the ones without ... without some other application getting involved to separate them into batches ...

Quote from: Schewe
Good for you...means nothing on a project the scale of Lightroom....

I see this all the time, people who work in the software industry thinking that some sort of work "experience" somehow gives them the right to make proclamations over the way "whatever" software application is developed...ya know, until you've gone through the process of starting at ground zero and actually developing an award winning application (or even a plug-in) don't even try to bring your creds to the table. Seriously, "software" doesn't mean diddly squat...try developing a REAL imaging application...that'll give you warts!
Dooooooooood ... the user-interface ain't an imaging app ... it's a user interface.

I've started at ground zero and gone to over $250 million in sales.  I'm about to start over in April again.

My software is used by serious financial professionals.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 10:43:22 PM by Jeremy Payne » Logged
Schewe
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 10:51:17 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
My software is used by serious financial professionals.

Which means less than zero in digital imaging...seriously, "financial", surely you guest...come back when you've worked on something akin to Photoshop, Camera Raw or Lightroom... financial software? No dooode, not in the same universe!
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Schewe
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2010, 10:55:46 PM »
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Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean...really I'm not.

But when you do a deep dive on a digital imaging application like one of the above (Photoshop, a Photoshop plug-in, Camera Raw or Lightroom), you learn that "other software need not apply"...

Really, you think you "grok" the problem but you don't...this is a completely different animal...


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Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2010, 11:04:44 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Which means less than zero in digital imaging...seriously, "financial", surely you guest...come back when you've worked on something akin to Photoshop, Camera Raw or Lightroom... financial software? No dooode, not in the same universe!
Application UI is application UI ... it's all the same ...

The stuff I built ain't all that different - at least in terms of the complexity of the UI ... the engines and libraries that get called do different shyte, but that's not really the point.

Where the controls are rendered on the screen and how that is determined has ZERO connection to what the controls call.

The stuff I've worked on in pretty intense behind the scenes in its own right with complex algorithms processing vast quantities of data, but again ... that's not the point.

Application UI is application UI ... and I have plenty of UI "cred" - both as an experienced user of this product and as a someone who has spent a HUGE amount of time working with UI designers and engineers.

I know where my domain expertise is ... and you are right, I've never built an imaging app ... but that don't matter ... at least with respect to this issue.
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Schewe
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2010, 11:39:40 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I know where my domain expertise is ... and you are right, I've never built an imaging app ... but that don't matter ... at least with respect to this issue.

Ok...come back and let me know when you've don't something like Photoshop, Camera Raw or Lightroom...

So, here's the thing...Thomas Knoll who co-authored Photoshop with his brother John wrote Camera Raw 1.x and was the principle engineer for ACR 2.x-5.x and the raw processing pipeline to LR 1-2.x (including LR 3 beta)...
Lightroom was the brainchild of Mark Hamburg (the second engineer to work on Photoshop and the principle engineer on Lightroom)...

And yes, imaging apps are different in that image processing routines are what's "interesting" not basic UI stuff...and usability and functionality is completely dependent from normal computer user UI design...

I know on several levels...the basic UI design of LR was was done by Phil Clevenger after Phil beat me out on the UI design creds for Lightroom (I did actually apply for the position). Phil was Kai Krause' main UI designer for things like Goo and a few other imaging apps with Kai...

You really don't wanna belly bump with me dooode...you won't win (and the odds are you'll just end up embarrassed). The fact you are in New York pretty much says you aren't on the cutting edge of digital imaging...(sorry, that stuff happens on the west coast–or MIT at the least).

Sorry, your creds mean little to me...doubtful it will mean much to the guys creating this stuff–on the other hand, those guys creating the stuff do tend to listen to me. So, there ya go...life's a beach, and then ya die...ya gotta go more than what you've shown to be a player...

:~)


BTW just understand, I'm not trying to call you out...I've been involved in DI image applications for well over a decade and I know all the guys doing this stuff by their first name (and have both their cell and home numbers and they actually answer my calls). So, you really can't tell me much I don't already know...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 11:42:44 PM by Schewe » Logged
Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2010, 08:03:23 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
BTW just understand, I'm not trying to call you out...I've been involved in DI image applications for well over a decade and I know all the guys doing this stuff by their first name (and have both their cell and home numbers and they actually answer my calls). So, you really can't tell me much I don't already know...

Don't worry, Jeff ... I know what I know ... and now I know what you know, too.

I'm not embarrassed in the least.
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JRSmit
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« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 05:15:43 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Never sat over your should while you were editing in Camera Raw or Lightroom, but....it's bee my experience that "most people" (huge generalization I admit) go to the DNG profiles section when they are flummoxed at trying to deal with color correction–particularly certain color rendering such as red, green and blue...some people also use the camera vendor profiles as a "variations" filter to see a variety of color renderings before deciding what they want. When I open an image in ACR or LR, I already pretty much know exactly what I want the image to look like and know what tools to use to achieve it.

I'm not saying that's really bad to simply "play" mind you, but relying upon the DNG profiles to be something other than what they were designed to do isn't optimal. The DNG profiles are NOT designed to be color correction tools...there's a bunch of other tools for that.

Aside from my P-65+ (which doesn't really HAVE a real "Adobe Standard" DNG profile cause Eric hasn't done one yet) I've found no reason to do custom DNG profiles for my Canon 1DsMIII, Rebel 500 nor my s90. I have made a dual illuminate DNG profile for my P-65+ in DNG Profile Editor (I tried the Passport software but I could never get the 2nd P-65+ DNG open–it just blows up...seems the Passport software doesn't like multiple 60 MP DNGs).

I do accept that if you are shooting very specific product colors and you need to make sure "John Deere Green" is John Deere green, then doing a custom DNG profile and doing a specific green edit is the way to go. The is a very good use of the DNG Editor...

So, the prospect of altering the usability to make it easier to select DNG profiles in order to "see what's best" won't get a lot of traction (although ironically, I think it was Eric Chan that first brought up the possibility of adding a DNG profile dropdown in the Quick Develop and the "Basic" panesl...) As I recall, Eric kinda got shot down...
Reason i do not use the Adobe standard profile is that it over-exagerates the image tone. I stick to camera neutral as a starting poin (i use a Nikon D700, and sometimes also a Canon 300D, or a Nikon D90) and then develop the image to what i feel is correct.
Yes i do use the colorchecker for product photography, not yet for portraits, but is on my schedule to experiment.
I do not mind this functionality to be at the bottom of the Develop panel, or missing from the q-dev in Library mode.
Once set as default in LR i do not bother much about it.
Yes from time to time i play with the available profiles to see the effect it has on the image at hand, as i do with other "tools", this helps me in making the right tool choices when i need something changed in the image to light right.
The bottom line: it is a tool like a few more in LR to get the image to look how you want it to look.


Jan R.
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Jan R. Smit
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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2010, 07:26:37 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Sorry, your creds mean little to me...doubtful it will mean much to the guys creating this stuff–on the other hand, those guys creating the stuff do tend to listen to me. So, there ya go...life's a beach, and then ya die...ya gotta go more than what you've shown to be a player...

:~)

BTW just understand, I'm not trying to call you out...I've been involved in DI image applications for well over a decade and I know all the guys doing this stuff by their first name (and have both their cell and home numbers and they actually answer my calls). So, you really can't tell me much I don't already know...

[THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED BY A MODERATOR - If you cannot post without the use foul language, please do not post]

.... appearing out of nowhere....

Sigh....yeah well, after a couple of years now "listening" to your verbal diarrhea....  

There are many people on the planet that do research in DI on a scientific level, and beyond doubts you do not have all their cells, and sure they would not answer your call - Who the f... is Schewe? - nor do you even remotely understand what they talk about.

It is OK to act as a product evangelist to a degree, but Dude, your attitude plain sucks, and frankly I give a f..., [EDIT]

Btw just understand, I don't mean to piss in your moccs, but your condescending tone is not giving you any credit, period. Not that you would need it, I am sure your BMW is payed in full. So go back to the beach, before you die, and think about it before you jabber again in that tone to other people.... you may want to re visit your definition of RESPECT!

....disappearing back to nowhere....

P.S. BMW rules!

P.P.S Your shirts suck! ;o)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 08:51:46 AM by Chris Sanderson » Logged
Morris Taub
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2010, 05:10:29 AM »
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Quote from: laughingbear
[THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED BY A MODERATOR - If you cannot post without the use foul language, please do not post]

.... appearing out of nowhere....

Sigh....yeah well, after a couple of years now "listening" to your verbal diarrhea....

There are many people on the planet that do research in DI on a scientific level, and beyond doubts you do not have all their cells, and sure they would not answer your call - Who the f... is Schewe? - nor do you even remotely understand what they talk about.

It is OK to act as a product evangelist to a degree, but Dude, your attitude plain sucks, and frankly I give a f..., [EDIT]

Btw just understand, I don't mean to piss in your moccs, but your condescending tone is not giving you any credit, period. Not that you would need it, I am sure your BMW is payed in full. So go back to the beach, before you die, and think about it before you jabber again in that tone to other people.... you may want to re visit your definition of RESPECT!

....disappearing back to nowhere....

P.S. BMW rules!

P.P.S Your shirts suck! ;o)

I like his shirts

BMW's are nice but so are some japanese bikes...and harley, well...

laughing bear...it's ironic you talking about 'respect' in a post like this...maybe too much caffeine this morning?

ok, either schewe will drop a bomb on this thread or michael will ban someone, or, or...i gotta get back to work...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 08:52:40 AM by Chris Sanderson » Logged

flash
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 11:59:43 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Doesn’t work in the public beta. Both parties are aware of this.

Funny. I've had absolutely no problems creating profiles using to Passport profile generator, in the LR export module, in both beta 1 and beta 2 of LR3. I can't remember whether it installed straight into LR3 beta or whether it installed into LR2 and I copied the preset across to the LR3 presets folder, but it definately functions. Makes great profiles too.



Gordon
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:10:58 AM by flash » Logged
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