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Author Topic: NY Times Magazine last Sunday.......  (Read 10384 times)
Peter Mellis
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« on: March 25, 2010, 03:21:58 PM »
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This is a link to an article/photos in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03...ml?ref=magazine. Very moving.
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ddk
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2010, 10:50:35 PM »
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Quote from: PeterAM
This is a link to an article/photos in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03...ml?ref=magazine. Very moving.

I find absolutely nothing moving in these pictures, just some boring bedrooms, that's really all. This is just more leftist, anti-war rhetoric from NYT and nothing more, wish the images had more to them but...
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2010, 11:24:39 PM »
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How can it be anti war rhetoric if all there is in the photos are a bunch of boring bedrooms?
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 11:52:09 PM »
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I agree, very moving.....
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 11:53:47 PM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
How can it be anti war rhetoric if all there is in the photos are a bunch of boring bedrooms?

The title and the explanation!
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 12:48:13 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
I find absolutely nothing moving in these pictures, just some boring bedrooms, that's really all. This is just more leftist, anti-war rhetoric from NYT and nothing more, wish the images had more to them but...
God almighty!... what exactly makes you say this is anti-war or leftist? What part of the title and what part of the explanation makes it anti-war or leftist? Paying respect to the dead, to the people who gave their life for the country, and showing what their lives were like before, is somehow anti-war and leftist? Rightists do not acknowledge that people die in wars, they do not pay respect to the dead by remembering how they lived!? Or you would rather have them forgotten behind statistics?
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Rob C
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 04:09:21 AM »
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What is remarkable to non-Americans, perhaps, is the amount of paraphernalia connected with military and national emblems in the way of flags and service posters. Another unsettling thing is the display of childhood toys.

I know this is quite normal in America - flags on poles in front of houses etc. but it is just so different in other countries where there is seldom this outer display of nationality. It is strange to foreign eyes because as it can come across a some need to state nationality, as if it were somehow under threat or doubted, almost a complex or compulsion to shout. Why? For example: when we first moved to Spain we bought into a new development and one of our neighbours was Canadian. The first thing he did was stick up a Canadian flag, which caused some quizzical looks from the Spaniards sill working on site; I think there was a sense of offence though they were all far too polite to say anything to him... The surprising thing is that he became one of my staunchest friends and was quite unlike the image that the extrovert act suggested.

But getting back to the published images, I think that the strongest message I take from them is of an innocence that suggests those kids should never have been allowed anywhere near a war. But then, isn't that where cannon fodder is always recruited and, by unavoidable extension, also the loss?

The older I get the more futile it all looks to me. Yes, of course we have to defend ourselves, but perhaps if our elected representatives were more careful in what they all do there would be less need from any side.

Rob C

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ddk
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 08:10:58 AM »
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God almighty!... what exactly makes you say this is anti-war or leftist? What part of the title and what part of the explanation makes it anti-war or leftist? Paying respect to the dead, to the people who gave their life for the country, and showing what their lives were like before, is somehow anti-war and leftist? Rightists do not acknowledge that people die in wars, they do not pay respect to the dead by remembering how they lived!? Or you would rather have them forgotten behind statistics?

I guess based on our past, life experiences and pov we all react differently to something like this, specially if its in NYT. Over the years I lost close friends and relatives to different wars and have dear friends who lost children to this one, and for once I wish that their death would be remembered and celebrated in a more meaningful way and not just a waste. I realize that war is hell but hopefully there are good things that come out it, no one talks about the lives, freedoms and ideals saved because of the soldier's sacrifices. Have you seen anything that celebrates these deaths with what was saved in NYT, instead of portraying their sacrifice as wasteful? As I mentioned I find nothing in the images to make me feel anything on their own but the pretense in the caption does make me angry... They did not all die for NOTHING!
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 08:33:58 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
Have you seen anything that celebrates these deaths with what was saved in NYT, instead of portraying their sacrifice as wasteful? As I mentioned I find nothing in the images to make me feel anything on their own but the pretense in the caption does make me angry... They did not all die for NOTHING!

Unfortunately, you attitude about the NYT is blinding you to the reason for this project. This is not about the global value of the war or it's rights or wrongs. It's a touching essay on the individual soldiers who have died, and how they're no different than any of the millions of other teens or early twenty-somethings we see everyday. The same kids we complain about when they're skateboarding on our sidewalks or parties are too loud. It's about average young people who died in extraordinary circumstances. It's about innocence and youth and horrors of war.

If you cannot see this, I truly feel sorry for you.

I, for one, was deeply moved.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 08:36:50 AM by ckimmerle » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 08:43:18 AM »
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Quote from: ckimmerle
It's about average young people who died in extraordinary circumstances. It's about innocence and youth and horrors of war.

If you cannot see this, I truly feel sorry for you.

I, for one, was deeply moved.

I read the same message and that's exactly what I'm objecting to, we're just reacting differently to it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 08:52:06 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
I read the same message and that's exactly what I'm objecting to, we're just reacting differently to it.

It's not a question of having differing reactions, it's a question of "why".
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 09:10:30 AM »
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Quote from: ckimmerle
It's not a question of having differing reactions, it's a question of "why".


For many reasons Chuck, some of which I mentioned above. Please, let's not make this thread about me anymore, its about those who we lost in-spite of our individual reactions to the caption and the images.

(PS. I changed my mind, maybe I should explain why I react that way)

For me images like this and just talking only about the horrors of war is very superficial, war is complex on many different levels. From these images you see these soldiers as the ordinary kid next door, that's deceiving the reader/viewer without saying anything about who lived in those rooms. They weren't drafted, its a voluntary army, do you know them or their reason for joining or what they died for from these images? While they all have/had their own convictions, many noble perhaps, not everyone's reason to become a merc is honorable. Whoever they were I simply don't see them as the simple kid next door as this photographer wants us to think...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 09:39:58 AM by ddk » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 09:30:26 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C
What is remarkable to non-Americans, perhaps, is the amount of paraphernalia connected with military

In the bedrooms of soldiers?  Really?

I find this comment and the surrounding musings as puzzling as you found your Canadian friend's urge to plant a flag at his home ... perhaps more.
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PeterAit
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 09:54:41 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
I find absolutely nothing moving in these pictures, just some boring bedrooms, that's really all. This is just more leftist, anti-war rhetoric from NYT and nothing more, wish the images had more to them but...

Right! What we really need is some rightist, pro-war rhetoric!
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Peter
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 09:58:50 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
... I realize that war is hell but hopefully there are good things that come out it, no one talks about the lives, freedoms and ideals saved because of the soldier's sacrifices. Have you seen anything that celebrates these deaths with what was saved in NYT...
Yes, I heard about a similar practice (i.e., celebrating the positive). My wife would be telling me that in Soviet Union they never heard or read about plane crashes (except in other countries, of course), sex crimes and even sex (except in other countries, of course), etc. But the newspapers were choke full of happy children running around playgrounds, under spirit-uplifting captions like: "thank you comrade Stalin  for our happy childhood!". There were no news of miners dying in mine accidents, just ecstatic workers celebrating latest five-year plan victories.
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 10:03:38 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
I guess based on our past, life experiences and pov we all react differently to something like this, specially if its in NYT. Over the years I lost close friends and relatives to different wars and have dear friends who lost children to this one, and for once I wish that their death would be remembered and celebrated in a more meaningful way and not just a waste. I realize that war is hell but hopefully there are good things that come out it, no one talks about the lives, freedoms and ideals saved because of the soldier's sacrifices. Have you seen anything that celebrates these deaths with what was saved in NYT, instead of portraying their sacrifice as wasteful? As I mentioned I find nothing in the images to make me feel anything on their own but the pretense in the caption does make me angry... They did not all die for NOTHING!

Where does the article say these young men died for nothing? Nowhere. This is an inference you are making, likely because you fear it is true.
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Peter
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 10:05:20 AM »
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Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
Yes, I heard about a similar practice (i.e., celebrating the positive). My wife would be telling me that in Soviet Union they never heard or read about plane crashes (except in other countries, of course), sex crimes and even sex (except in other countries, of course), etc. But the newspapers were choke full of happy children running around playgrounds, under spirit-uplifting captions like: "thank you comrade Stalin  for our happy childhood!". There were no news of miners dying in mine accidents, just ecstatic workers celebrating latest five-year plan victories.

+1

Exactly.  If only the NYT were more like the old Pravda ...
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 10:06:46 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C
... Another unsettling thing is the display of childhood toys....
It would be interesting to hear why is that "unsettling", but my guess is that mothers put it there after death... and for our parents, we will be forever kids.
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 10:40:42 AM »
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I agree with David. The thing is just another propaganda piece by the NYT. Do these morons really think people in the U.S. are "in favor" of war? As I said in another post, I spent 26 years in the Air Force. In three combat-zone tours I flew fighter-bombers during the Korean war, commanded a radar site in the Vietnam delta, and commanded a tactical control group with radar sites all over Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war. I lost several close friends during all of that. The worst loss for me was in primary pilot training when my best friend was killed during his last flight before we moved on to advanced training. I had to accompany his body home on a train and spend a week with his parents during the run-up to and denouement after his funeral. My hardest job on that trip was convincing his mother that she didn't want to have the casket opened so she could see him one last time. An aircraft accident doesn't leave you in pretty condition.

In spite of that, none of us, neither his parents, my parents, my peers, nor I felt that the risks we took weren't worth it. It simply had to be done. Nowadays it seems that that understanding has faded. But let me assure you: it still has to be done, and the risks are still worth it. It's clear that people who obsess over the bedrooms of the departed aren't part of the solution. They're not about to volunteer to fight for their comfortable country, and they're perfectly willing to let those kids whose bedrooms. along with their toys, are on display in this wretched propaganda piece do the fighting for them -- then whine and express feigned dismay about how costly it is to defend their freedoms.

This kind of thing is unmitigated crap, and people who buy into it are showing that they can be easily gulled!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 12:35:47 PM by RSL » Logged

Jeremy Payne
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 10:50:35 AM »
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Quote from: RSL
This kind of thing is unmitigated crap, and people who buy into it are disgusting cowards!

Russ ... I know you know what real 'propaganda' is and this ain't it.

With all due respect and admiration for your service and wisdom, you are wrong ... like the other guy, your stance would seem to have more to do with the NYT and your perception of the paper than the piece itself.

I wish we could run an experiment and put these in the Wall Street Journal and see your reaction to them at that point.
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