Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: NY Times Magazine last Sunday.......  (Read 9073 times)
k bennett
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1410


WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2010, 10:59:13 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
This kind of thing is unmitigated crap, and people who buy into it are disgusting cowards!


Thank you. I suppose my six years in the military doesn't count in your world -- if I am moved by these photos, I am a "disgusting coward."

One glaring problem with political discourse in this country is that it quickly devolves into name-calling. You, sir, should be ashamed.

Ken Bennett
US Army, 1982-88
Logged

Equipment: a camera and some lenses.
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2010, 11:03:38 AM »
ReplyReply

Jeremy, Do you really think the WSJ would be willing to run something like this? What, exactly, is the point of the thing other than to make people feel that the wars we have to fight aren't worth the losses we experience when we fight them? You're right: my opinion of the NYT is about as far down the scale as you can get -- mainly because the paper regularly runs editorials disguised as news reports, but it wouldn't matter where this crap appeared, it still would be what it is: propaganda to make people feel (not think) that the wars we have to fight are too costly. Is there some hidden artistic value in a picture of a dead man's bedroom with his childhood toys? If there is, I've somehow missed it.
Logged

ddk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 274


WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2010, 11:04:35 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Russ ... I know you know what real 'propaganda' is and this ain't it.

With all due respect and admiration for your service and wisdom, you are wrong ... like the other guy, your stance would seem to have more to do with the NYT and your perception of the paper than the piece itself.

I wish we could run an experiment and put these in the Wall Street Journal and see your reaction to them at that point.

That's just your opinion Jeremy, I would react exactly the same no matter who printed those drab pictures...
Logged

david
-----------------------
www.pbase.com/ddk
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2010, 11:05:47 AM »
ReplyReply

Ken, I'll ask you the same question I asked Jeremy: Is there some hidden artistic value in a picture of a dead man's bedroom with his childhood toys? If so, what is it?
Logged

Jeremy Payne
Guest
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2010, 11:06:49 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Ken, I'll ask you the same question I asked Jeremy: Is there some hidden artistic value in a picture of a dead man's bedroom with his childhood toys? If so, what is it?
It's a newspaper, Russ ... not lenswork ...
Logged
Jeremy Payne
Guest
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2010, 11:08:05 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ddk
That's just your opinion Jeremy, I would react exactly the same no matter who printed those drab pictures...
So you would have accused the Wall Street Journal of leftist, anti-war propagandizing?

I seriously doubt it.  Just my opinion.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2010, 11:08:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
It's a newspaper, Russ ... not lenswork ...
Exactly! They're not even pretending it's art. So what is it?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:09:05 AM by RSL » Logged

Jeremy Payne
Guest
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2010, 11:27:52 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Exactly! They're not even pretending it's art. So what is it?

Russ ... this is the same conversation we had when the NYT published the Brazilian asylum photographs ...

It is photojournalism.

Logged
k bennett
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1410


WWW
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2010, 12:01:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Ken, I'll ask you the same question I asked Jeremy: Is there some hidden artistic value in a picture of a dead man's bedroom with his childhood toys? If so, what is it?


It's not hidden at all. The artistic value of these photographs is right in plain sight, for any feeling person to see.

I see many things in these photographs: honor for the service and sacrifice of the men and women who died in the service of their country. The loss and pain their families felt and still feel. The ordinariness of their rooms -- these could belong to any 19 or 20 year old, including my own 19 year old daughter. The thought that these rooms will remain exactly the same until the parents move or die.

Of course they are just ordinary bedrooms -- that's the point.

I am sorry that you appear to be so blinded by your political beliefs that you can't feel anything but anger when confronted with the price that individual families pay so that you may have the freedom to call me a "disgusting coward."

EDIT: Let me add that these photographs moved me to tears.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:02:42 PM by k bennett » Logged

Equipment: a camera and some lenses.
ddk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 274


WWW
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2010, 12:21:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
So you would have accused the Wall Street Journal of leftist, anti-war propagandizing?

I seriously doubt it.  Just my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion...
Logged

david
-----------------------
www.pbase.com/ddk
ddk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 274


WWW
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2010, 12:23:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Russ ... this is the same conversation we had when the NYT published the Brazilian asylum photographs ...

It is photojournalism.

What kind of photojournalism is this? Its just a bunch of bedrooms cleaned up for a photo shoot and a catchy title, that's all.
Logged

david
-----------------------
www.pbase.com/ddk
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2010, 12:24:36 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Russ ... this is the same conversation we had when the NYT published the Brazilian asylum photographs ...

It is photojournalism.

Jeremy, I've decided that the "coward" part of what I said was over the top. I've taken it back. But the "disgusting" part stands. The whole thing really steams me.

So this is "photojournalism." Really? Photojournalism exists to make a point. Is there some point to this "photojournalism" other than that people get killed in wars, and that before they were adults they were kids with kids' toys? If there is some other point maybe you can explain it to me. And if there is some other point, why wouldn't one bedroom do the job? Why are we showing bedroom after bedroom? Is there someone out there who doesn't understand that people get killed in wars?
Logged

Jeremy Payne
Guest
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2010, 12:25:30 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ddk
You're entitled to your opinion...
Here's another ... I like your photographic work very much!

:-)
Logged
Jeremy Payne
Guest
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2010, 12:28:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Is there some point to this "photojournalism" other than that people get killed in wars, and that before they were adults they were kids with kids' toys?

Russ, if it made me value and recognize their sacrifice MORE than I did yesterday, is that a valid point?
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2010, 12:35:51 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: k bennett
It's not hidden at all. The artistic value of these photographs is right in plain sight, for any feeling person to see.

Really? Suppose we didn't know that these were the bedrooms of people killed in a war? Would they still have artistic value? Art has to stand on its own feet. This crap doesn't do that.

Quote
I am sorry that you appear to be so blinded by your political beliefs that you can't feel anything but anger when confronted with the price that individual families pay so that you may have the freedom to call me a "disgusting coward."

EDIT: Let me add that these photographs moved me to tears.

My political beliefs have nothing to do with it. That they do is an assumption you're making on the basis of your own politics. Believe me, I know all about "the price that individual families pay" -- not only from my own experiences, but from the  gold-star families on my street during WW II, when I was a teenager. It's a high price, but it's a price we used to be willing to pay. It's a price we still have to pay whether we want to or not. This garbage, fobbed off as art, can only increase "the price individual families pay."

By the way, I've taken back the "coward" part since I don't know that for a fact.
Logged

ckimmerle
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 442



WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 12:42:31 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ddk
What kind of photojournalism is this? Its just a bunch of bedrooms cleaned up for a photo shoot and a catchy title, that's all.

Moonrise, Hernandez was just a pretty sunset photo, that's all.
Pepper #30 was just another overdone vegetable picture, that's all.
Karsh did simple headshots, that's all.
Dykinga won a Pulitzer for pictures of rocks and trees, that's all.

It's easy to dismiss the value of any photograph(er) if you don't actually make an attempt to understand.

Quote from: RSL
Really? Suppose we didn't know that these were the bedrooms of people killed in a war? Would they still have artistic value? Art has to stand on its own feet.

Russ, with all due respect, that's garbage and you know it. Perspective has ALWAYS played a part in art. It's essential to the basic understanding.

(edited to be less obnoxious)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:46:48 PM by ckimmerle » Logged

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeing new landscapes, but in having new eyes." Marcel Proust

Chuck Kimmerle
WWW.CHUCKKIMMERLE.COM
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12215


« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 12:47:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
It would be interesting to hear why is that "unsettling", but my guess is that mothers put it there after death... and for our parents, we will be forever kids.




Slobodan

The unsettling aspect, for me, is that soft toys etc. signify very young and immature minds. If those were indeed placed there after the event by a grieving parent, I can fully understand the reason: we are all our parent's children for ever, even in our sixties. But then it is no longer honest reportage. If the toys were there by the hand of the soldier, then in my way of looking at it, he or she was far too immature to know exactly the depth of the possibility incurred by what he or she was signing up to accomplish. Just how I interpret these little motifs.

Russ

I don't think you are being fair when you label dissenting minds cowards. There is a hell of a difference between signing up to protect your country (who wouldn't) and signing up to engage in foreign adventures, which is what I am afraid all modern wars seem to be, without clear indication of exactly where the domestic front is being served.

Perhaps a better purpose would be served by governments considering their positions more carefully, whose countries and religions they decide to favour and, with the latter, take into account the inevitable reactions choices can provoke. I doubt very much that the US would have experienced 9/11 had it paid more attention to such things, and for sure the subways would be safer in the UK had our own puppy dogs thought more deeply too.

Mention was made, in another close thread, of the US being or not being the world's policeman: perhaps it should wait to be asked next time? It is just too easy to view everything from one perspective. The world does not always want the same lifestyle that we share, as we sometimes think; why try and impose it when such action usually leads only to disaster?

Rob C

PS: I see you deleted the 'coward' remark - good for you!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:55:18 PM by Rob C » Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 12:54:22 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Russ, if it made me value and recognize their sacrifice MORE than I did yesterday, is that a valid point?

Jeremy, You and I don't often disagree, but this is one time when we do. Why does seeing a picture of a series of bedrooms make you value and recognize their sacrifice more than you did before? Certainly you were aware that they had bedrooms. Surely you were aware that when they were little they had Pooh bears and other toys. Yes, it's terrible that people have to die in wars, and especially terrible because they're young and have full lives in front of them that get snuffed out. But I'd be willing to bet you're aware of that every day, and that you value that kind of sacrifice without seeing a series of bedrooms. The only possible use for this kind of propaganda is to: (1) Frighten people who've thought about military service, (2) Sadden and frighten the parents of people who are in military service, (3) Frighten the parents of people who are thinking about military service, and (4) Make it harder for the United States to fight the wars it needs to fight by emboldening the clueless people who don't understand that these things need to be done.
Logged

fredjeang
Guest
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 01:10:43 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rob C
The world does not always want the same lifestyle that we share, as we sometimes think; why try and impose it when such action usually leads only to disaster?

Rob C

PS: I see you deleted the 'coward' remark - good for you!
Rob, as always, it is a pleasure to read you and also the Russ posts. Both have a style and experienced in the writings that I'm learning a lot.
Different points of view, I can agree or disagree but I always find wisdom and great writing. I'll always remember the "duels" Russ-Rob from LU-LA.
(like Prost-Sena for the ones who remember).

I have to say that your sentence above resumed my feelings.

Fred.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5717



WWW
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 01:19:54 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rob C
Russ

I don't think you are being fair when you label dissenting minds cowards. There is a hell of a difference between signing up to protect your country (who wouldn't) and signing up to engage in foreign adventures, which is what I am afraid all modern wars seem to be, without clear indication of exactly where the domestic front is being served.

Rob, The main reason these things seem like foreign adventures and don't seem to have a clear indication of where the domestic front is being served is that unlike WW II, where we had clear fronts that needed to be penetrated and where the fighting took place, the menace we faced during the Cold War and the menace we face now, for the most part don't have identifiable fronts. But that doesn't make them any less existential threats. Unfortunately our governments -- not just the current U.S. government -- have for a long time gone out of their way to downplay the significance of the threats. That lets governments spend less on defense and more on "social security," which is a happy state of affairs for any politician. The real tragedy isn't empty bedrooms, though that's tragedy enough. The real tragedy is that at least in the  U.S., for a long time now we've increased the burden on our armed forces while reducing the means they have to carry that burden. We're not far away from breaking the tool the whole free world depends on for defense. If it breaks, the result will be catastrophic.

Quote
Mention was made, in another close thread, of the US being or not being the world's policeman: perhaps it should wait to be asked next time? It is just too easy to view everything from one perspective. The world does not always want the same lifestyle that we share, as we sometimes think; why try and impose it when such action usually leads only to disaster?

Actually, seems to me we were asked. At least that's what Churchill seems to indicate. Three questions: (1) Does the free world need a policeman? (2) If so, since WW II, who, other than the U.S. has had the ability to be the world's policeman? (3) Without a world policeman, what would the world look like?

Regarding the second part of your paragraph, I certainly agree. I'd be happy to see an acknowledged dictator in parts of Palestine. "Democracy" didn't work out so well for those folks. Of course, if you look back at history you find that democracy" rarely does work out well. That's why the U.S. has a republic. So far that's worked fairly well, but underneath the republic is a democracy full of people who've discovered that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. Mr. Tytler has educated us about the inevitable outcome of that problem.
Logged

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad