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Author Topic: Reconsidering the Leica S2 ?  (Read 5191 times)
tho_mas
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2010, 05:06:14 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
I guess the alternative would be to move to H4D50 or just dump MF - the Phase P65 looks nice filewise, but the DF camera is more of the Mamiya
You get the P65 also in Contax mount. The lenses are up to the task (seriously!).
Then again... if you like your P45+ for portraiture... why upgrade to a P65+? For portraits I'd rather recommend to downgrade to a P21+ as it enables you to use the continous mode of your camera... unless you want to shoot those Thomas Ruff super large portraits or so...
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eronald
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
You get the P65 also in Contax mount. The lenses are up to the task (seriously!).
Then again... if you like your P45+ for portraiture... why upgrade to a P65+? For portraits I'd rather recommend to downgrade to a P21+ as it enables you to use the continous mode of your camera... unless you want to shoot those Thomas Ruff super large portraits or so...

The back is ok - I just want to swap the body type.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
tho_mas
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2010, 05:16:41 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
I have a look on one in Madrid, body + 80/2 planar + prism finder all in mint conditions=1200 euros.
Well, the Leica is also very simple...but much much more expensive
well... I've only seen the images available online and you never know how they were processed etc. So I have no first hand experience. But my impression is that the S2/70mm is better wide open and up to f4 in terms of resolution. In terms of "bokeh" (wow!) the 70mm also produces ghosting beyond the focus plane. Simply a weird look.
But from 5.6 and above I'd say the Contax 80mm smokes the S2/70mm ... especially on a crop 1.3 sensor (P40+ and the like)... unless someone shows better examples (or maybe I can test a S2 for fun sometime).
"Leica" is a big name ... but looking at the results I seriously don't get the hype.
"Zeiss" is also a big name btw. But finally that doesn't mean anything...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 05:21:37 PM by tho_mas » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2010, 05:20:24 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
The back is ok - I just want to swap the body type.
so why not just try a H? The finders are certainly very nice and I think for portraits that's a real benefit (?).
Maybe if it's really for portraits the H3D40 would be better...? I was very impressed by the ISO800 shot posted by D. Grover.
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Robert Moore
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2010, 05:31:42 PM »
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I have to say this....2010 and you all are talking about a system that is not supported nor likely to be resurrected.
Lenses have no appreciable loss of utility with time...not so with bodies.

Lets get real ... Contax is yesterdays darling. Find something that works today.

H4D, Phase Pentax....find the least objectionable alternative and make it work for you.

Legacy lens adapters and future upgrades.

Those who have the Contax MF system can make it work for years to come....I for one would
not want to buy in at this point.

I agree that the S2 has nothing that trumps MF but it is attractive...the files presented here look better than
a lot that Leica used to show the camera. Nothing I have seen makes me want to give away my H3DII - 39 in
order to change.

I would personally love a digital camera that supported Cooke LF lenses...wont happen!

Just some random observations.

Bob


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Robert Moore
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2010, 05:33:06 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
so why not just try a H? The finders are certainly very nice and I think for portraits that's a real benefit (?).
Maybe if it's really for portraits the H3D40 would be better...? I was very impressed by the ISO800 shot posted by D. Grover.

I also...Jeff Grants nearly 3 minute exposure on the H4D 40 was wonderful.

Bob
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2010, 05:35:32 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
I guess the alternative would be to move to H4D50 or just dump MF - the Phase P65 looks nice filewise, but the DF camera is just more of the Mamiya, and I am developing a real allergy to that thing. I guess I should try a Contax for a few days.
Edmund


Have you actually took the time to go shoot the DF or is the allergy just something that comes with thought. Go shoot the freaking thing , it's not even close to the AFDII. Frankly it's a much better cam by a long shot but you will not know that looking at specs. you need to actually put it in play.

Edmund just for you http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 05:42:08 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2010, 05:44:43 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,
I've been barking against Leica S2, I would have like them to make a digital successor of the R9 more than this risky and "unfinished" S2.
But I do have a more contrasted opinion after examinating some files from a place that I know in Madrid.
There is also an interesting link in french (use google traductor) with some 100% details from images, well if it is 8bits jpegs for the web,
the IQ is nothing less than exceptional.

If they fix the tethered issues it might really be a serious alternative to Phase and Hassy etc...

Here is the link: http://www.revoirfoto.com/pr/?pg=92&c=4&lg=

page 2 with samples: http://www.revoirfoto.com/pr/index.php?lg=&pg=93&c=4

Cheers,

Fred.

Most of these samples appear not to be 100% even when you click on the image, they are just downsampled to whatever resolution your screen has.

I would personnally wait for a comparison between the S2 and Pentax 645D files before even considering the Leica. The gap with top DSLR appears to be already not that huge in technical terms, my guess would be that the Pentax will be impossible to distinguish if not superior. It is by the 3.5 times cheaper in Tokyo. I could get the Pentax, a few lenses and a very nice second hand car to take me to shooting locales for the price Leica is asking for the S2 and 70mm lens.

In the end what remains might be the look of the lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
tho_mas
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2010, 05:46:38 PM »
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Quote from: Robert Moore
Lets get real ... Contax is yesterdays darling. Find something that works today
I kind of agree.
Then again... the S2 truley doesn't work today (only 2 lenses, ludicrous tethering performace ...) but the Contax does. The Contax is a complete system including vertical grip, exchangebale finders, the whole range of lenses (incl. Hasselblad lenses via adapter) etc.... it's all there! And it works.
As to service... just buy 2 or 4 or 10 Contax' and 2 or 4 copies of the most important lenses. That's still less expensive than a current MFD system and you won't need any service at all.
Man... occasionally I look at ebay for Contax items. I've bought a 2./80 for 200.- some months ago. Mint. Actually I think it has never been used.
At this price I can buy 15 Contax 80mm lenses for 1 S2/70mm lens. From this point of view, seriously... service it not an issue. Cases for all that gear are an issue  
As I am located in Germany service is not an issue at all anyhow...
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2010, 05:53:04 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Most of these samples appear not to be 100% even when you click on the image, they are just downsampled to whatever resolution your screen has.

I would personnally wait for a comparison between the S2 and Pentax 645D files before even considering the Leica. The gap with top DSLR appears to be already not that huge in technical terms, my guess would be that the Pentax will be impossible to distinguish if not superior. It is by the 3.5 times cheaper in Tokyo. I could get the Pentax, a few lenses and a very nice second hand car to take me to shooting locales for the price Leica is asking for the S2 and 70mm lens.

In the end what remains might be the look of the lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard


End of the day I really did not see much of a different look from the s2 lenses compared to anything else. Now if we are talking some M and R glass than we are talking a different story altogether.
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eronald
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2010, 06:25:07 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Have you actually took the time to go shoot the DF or is the allergy just something that comes with thought. Go shoot the freaking thing , it's not even close to the AFDII. Frankly it's a much better cam by a long shot but you will not know that looking at specs. you need to actually put it in play.

Edmund just for you http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243

Spent some time with it this afternoon. Focus was actually less accurate than I thought it would be, after all the hype I'd heard. Remember I *own* a P45+, so I actually know how these things behave.

The camera had no alignment issues, because I could focus it very well manually. But I am now old enough that I cannot do MF for more than one or two shots at a time.

And I still cannot stand the new thing. It just doesn't feel like a camera, although I do agree that focus is faster, no hunting anymore, and it doesn't slap as much as the old one.

 Yes, the DF is less of a kludge than the old Mamiya -but low-light focus is the sole real problem of this body, just like the LCD is the one reason one can have doubts about the Phase back.

 Yes, the DF is the path of least resistance; I also think that getting one almost guarantees that I'll *never* use the back outside studio setups.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 06:49:54 PM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
BobDavid
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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2010, 06:33:22 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
Spent some time with it this afternoon. Focus was actually less accurate than I thought it would be, after all the hype I'd heard. Remember I *own* a P45+, so I actually know how these things behave.
The camera had no alignment issues, because I could focus it very well manually. But I am now old enough that I cannot do MF for more than one or two shots at a time.

 And I still cannot stand the new thing. It just doesn't feel like a camera, although I do agree that focus is faster, no hunting anymore, and it doesn't slap as much as the old one.

Yes, the DF is the path of least resistance; I also think that getting one almost guarantees that I'll *never* use the back outside studio setups.

Edmund
I wasn't much impressed with the DF either. I like the Hasselblad H cams, although they are not perfect.
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eronald
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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2010, 06:45:04 PM »
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Quote from: BobDavid
I wasn't much impressed with the DF either. I like the Hasselblad H cams, although they are not perfect.

I'm just noticing that buying the naked DF and 80mm would cost me at least as much as switching to Contax or Hassy as I have just a few old Mamiya lenses, and a VA free body switch. And if I ever do choose to do an upgrade to the back be it to Hassy or Phase I guess the dealer will donate a body. So I guess my current back is a license to experiment  

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 06:46:16 PM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2010, 07:11:46 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
End of the day I really did not see much of a different look from the s2 lenses compared to anything else. Now if we are talking some M and R glass than we are talking a different story altogether.

True as of now, but they might show up in a variety of situations. Bokeh is of course a key aspect, but the look of flare, the stability of the performance at all focusing distances,... and of course the degree of exitation resulting from the usage of the most expensive 70mm lens ever that is also a nicely carved piece of gear.

The eyes of a close friend shine the moment he sits in the leather seats of his Carrera turbo, the moment his hands low pass over the black carbon transmission tunnel on the way to the gear box lever. He doesn't really have to turn on the engine to get his ROI...

Having put my hands on the new Pentax 55mm lens, it appears to be an amazing performer, but I didn't feel any erotic excitation when I touched it. Now I also don't feel anything special when I sit in the Porsche so it might be my problem, never have touched a S2 or its lenses.  

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
fredjeang
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2010, 05:10:43 AM »
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I remember Jack Flesher pointing an interesting info regarding the S2:
It is a light body with heavy lenses, and this have consequences on the handling. (balance)
In Jack's case, and also in my case, I've always prefered an heavy body with light (and compact) lenses.
So I imagine that with the Leica I would never end to feel totally confortable. But: What a bloody design!!
It's like the essence of the camera.
The Contax I've tried felt inmediatly "at home" in a second, but it's just me.
Sure that for others, the S2 handling is what they want. In fact it's a pregnant R10, but, has many pointed, much more expensive
than 35mm FF and the gap between the 2 systems is getting smaller. So, is that worth the expense?
Is the IQ so much better than a Nikon D3x, or a Sony A900 ? for example...
I have the feeling that the S2 plays in another league, but that has to be demostrated.

Speaking of the S2 files, they remind me the style of the Sinar backs files for some reasons.
But I have the impression that Leica is again some years late.
Michael Reichmann pointed that the X1 arrived too late on the market to be a real competitor because of MFT,
and this S2 arrived just when Pentax released the 645 and the CaNikons are coming in MFD "reserved area"...

But the S2 IMHO does not target the same client than the Pentax.
Anyway, it looks really good, has a top IQ and it's expensive...you buy it like you buy a peace of art.
I think that reason is not involved in the choice of an S2, but passion or investment.

Fred.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 05:12:32 AM by fredjeang » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 06:12:19 AM »
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Motivated by this "second look" on the S2,
I re-read the Lu-La testing here:http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2.shtml
In fact I think that they pointed exactly what has been said so far in the forum.

As often, Lu-La has provided valuable information and after many posts regarding the S2 in different threads, back on the article gives a good concentrate.
I like to give value to the efforts made to provide to us a trustable information.
Thanks to all the Lu-La team that participated on this shooting session.

Fred.
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yaya
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2010, 06:18:51 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Motivated by this "second look" on the S2,
I re-read the Lu-La testing here:http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2.shtml
In fact I think that they pointed exactly what has been said so far in the forum.

As often, Lu-La has provided valuable information and after many posts regarding the S2 in different threads, back on the article gives a good concentrate.
I like to give value to the efforts made to provide to us a trustable information.
Thanks to all the Lu-La team that participated on this shooting session.

Fred.

one thing they did not test is capture rate at high iso...
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2010, 07:37:53 AM »
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.

you can see the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com

I will have a full report on the trip shortly on my Web site ( http://www.paultornaquindici.com ) . Until then I would say the camera is truly elegant, easy to get to the right menu quickly, presets worked very well and made for simple easy use. Love the lenses. And best of all the ability to have that quality when shooting out in the elements is a real joy. Which was exactly what I had wanted the camera to do in the first place.

There is an image (the second- number 2 on http://www.thingsnotseen.com ) that was shot handheld at 1/6 f4 at ISO 640 and it is one of my favorites.

PaulT
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2010, 07:52:11 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
Spent some time with it this afternoon. Focus was actually less accurate than I thought it would be, after all the hype I'd heard. Remember I *own* a P45+, so I actually know how these things behave.

The camera had no alignment issues, because I could focus it very well manually. But I am now old enough that I cannot do MF for more than one or two shots at a time.

And I still cannot stand the new thing. It just doesn't feel like a camera, although I do agree that focus is faster, no hunting anymore, and it doesn't slap as much as the old one.

 Yes, the DF is less of a kludge than the old Mamiya -but low-light focus is the sole real problem of this body, just like the LCD is the one reason one can have doubts about the Phase back.

 Yes, the DF is the path of least resistance; I also think that getting one almost guarantees that I'll *never* use the back outside studio setups.

Edmund


Compared to what?


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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2010, 04:51:26 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
Spent some time with it this afternoon. Focus was actually less accurate than I thought it would be, after all the hype I'd heard. Remember I *own* a P45+, so I actually know how these things behave.

..
Edmund

Dear Edmund,

The Contax IS accurate; it just decides where it wants to focus and does it. The problem is, that may not be where YOU want to focus.

Over the years I have learned to compensate; the Contax AF wants to focus on the highest contrast high spacial frquency objects. If you have a subject and a tree, it may focus on the tree, You just need to focus and recompose.

It is really the ONLY place in my mind where the Contax is inferior to what the S2 or Hasselblad or New Phase/Mamyia bodies are (and I am not sure that the real issue is that ALL cameras, as Sean Reid says, should use a single, central AF point. Let's face it, that's what we do manually.

The counter is, fantastic lenses (see somewhere here my corner and edge shots with a 35mm that has never needed adjustment. The comments we all extremely positive. Even I was surprised at the result :-)

The WLF, Grips, lenses and yes, with 2s delay even 1/15 is rock solid.

BTW, the 35mm shot was 100% crop with the P65+! If you want the raw, email me.

So, a little give up in AF for a LOT more, and for CHEAP.... LOL

best regards
Victor

PS And if David Farcus ever gets back to me, I am considering the S2 as the BACKUP to the Contax P65+ setup. I do need the quality in a AF package with a little less fuss. I also think the Zeiss/Phase look is NOT the same as the Leica S2, but is just as good, just different; richer, less anylytical, more 'warm' and smooth. We shall see. If it doesn't blow me away, I can wait. (and ok, cost may not be a real issue for me, but I am not going to pay for a symbol; at 67 I long ago gave up the need to impress anyone except myself!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 04:56:31 PM by vgogolak » Logged
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