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Author Topic: Leica S2 in snow and sleet  (Read 8326 times)
PaulT
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« on: April 02, 2010, 07:40:46 AM »
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Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.

you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com

I will have a full report on the trip shortly on my Web site ( http://www.paultornaquindici.com ) . Until then I would say the camera is truly elegant, easy to get to the right menu quickly, presets worked very well and made for simple easy use. Love the lenses. And best of all the ability to have that quality when shooting out in the elements is a real joy. Which was exactly what I had wanted the camera to do in the first place.

There is an image (the second- number 2 on http://www.thingsnotseen.com ) that was shot handheld at 1/6 f4 at ISO 640 and it is one of my favorites.

PaulT
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 07:42:30 AM by PaulT » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 09:05:50 AM »
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Quote from: PaulT
Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
PaulT
Are these finished pictures, or un-post-processed?

Did you just use ambient, or any flash-fill or reflectors?

Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 09:20:20 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.
Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 09:32:41 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better... did you try to e-fill the shadows in your pictures?

When I get the H4D-60 and post sample files, shadow recovery/noise is one of the "real world" "real differences" I will be looking for, particularly as Phase, apparently, has problems with this (Dalsa 60 Mpx) chip.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 09:41:42 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better... did you try to e-fill the shadows in your pictures?

When I get the H4D-60 and post sample files, shadow recovery/noise is one of the "real world" "real differences" I will be looking for, particularly as Phase, apparently, has problems with this (Dalsa 60 Mpx) chip.


Can you enlighten us on WHERE Phase has problems with the Dalsa sensor PLEASE.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 09:46:53 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Can you enlighten us on WHERE Phase has problems with the Dalsa sensor PLEASE.
Have you not read this forum?
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2010, 10:12:38 AM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Have you not read this forum?


Dick I know about 10 or more folks with P65 backs and no one has said a word on ANY issues. I have shot it personally at least a dozen times on workshops and with Jack. So show me the threads and on what is wrong. And no i do NOT read every word on forums. I own one myself and I am a working pro so my time is limited.

The only problem I ever had with a P65 was a pre production model before deliveries where made to the public . Other than that I have not heard a word on Dalsa issues in the P65. Is this urban myth or something since Phase, my dealer and owners have never said one word of any issues.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 10:16:06 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 11:19:34 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Dick I know about 10 or more folks with P65 backs and no one has said a word on ANY issues. I have shot it personally at least a dozen times on workshops and with Jack. So show me the threads and on what is wrong. And no i do NOT read every word on forums. I own one myself and I am a working pro so my time is limited.

The only problem I ever had with a P65 was a pre production model before deliveries where made to the public . Other than that I have not heard a word on Dalsa issues in the P65. Is this urban myth or something since Phase, my dealer and owners have never said one word of any issues.

Grain is a problem with film, you accept it and/or change to a finer grain film.

Digital artifacts are a fact of life in digital cameras... but how much does who think is a problem? Come to Warwickshire when I get my H4D-60 and we can do some relevant side-by-side tests.

I have not visited any other photographic forum for some considerable time, so I read all the relevant info I have read was on this forum, or in links from it.

I have not found the original post, where someone mentioned that there was a problem (without specifying what) and Doug denied that there was a problem.

I first became aware of the nature of the problem at the top of page three in the link from the post about the Hasselblad Factory visit.

Quote from: derekhsu
I had visited Hasselblad Factory in early February 2010 with a prior arrangment by Shriro HK.

I had used the Imacon I96 and then upgraded to I96C DB with Rollei 6008 since 2000 and then dropped the whole system in 2006 and decided to choose Hasselblad H3D as my core system.

In addition, I had also visited the previous named Rollei Factory in Braunsweigh and Leica Factory in Solms in 2005.

I had discovered an important news regarding a gentleman called Mr Hans (I supposed is the key man from Rollei in charged of the Sales in Asian Countries at that time) Rollei is suffering a serious financial difficulties during 2005-2007.

Beside this, our (Ex-Rollei) HK distributor - Jebsen Group didn't place many orders from Rollei and the agreement was expired @9/2008, however, we have a parallel importer in HK whom I found out all this stories from 2005 onwards.

Anyway, I was very happy and satisfied with what I have seen and learned from this Trip.  
Hasselblad's guy is very nice, with passion, with all their Superb Technical knowledge and well managed operation.

I was lucky I had make this decision in 2006 to drop all my Rollei systems which I had used the Brand for over 20 years.

Most of the replies do have an Brief English Translation, indeed, the Chinese version especially on the 1st page is the FULL Original Version.

Hassselblad Factory Visit

"Discussion with Peter for the H4D-60!

Yes, Peter told me the H4D-60 indeed is using the DALSA CCD Chips but Exclusive to Hasselblad, however, it is not the STOCK version as P1 is using.  Hasselbald also delivered the best Optical Quality where this STOCK version DALSA 60M CCD chips do suffer a significant Shadow Noise Problem.   Therefore, Hasselblad and DALSA worked together and drill down the cause of the issues and enhanced it with an Exclusive 60M Chips version for Hasselblad.

The gentleman responsible to help DALSA to solve the NOISE Problem is named Anders Poulsen (R&D Manager - Hasselblad).

Please remember!
If you want just the Ordinary STOCK version but charge at an extraordinary price, you may go now and pay for it.

If you are looking for the Best, you should then go for the H4D-60 with a proven on-going product enhancement and a secure Product Life Cycle to protect your valuable investment.

PS:  It is very difficult to find any sample pictures taken by P1 DB in a long exposure mode or low light condition.  Do you know why?"


I will post this now, and post other links in a few minutes.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2010, 11:43:59 AM »
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Hasselbald also delivered the best Optical Quality where this STOCK version DALSA 60M CCD chips do suffer a significant Shadow Noise

So this comes from a Hassy guy. Hmmm

Dick sorry bud this is utter bullshit. I have seen no such issue with a P40+ or P65+ running through anything processed in C1. I have shot the P40+ down to very low light and very low exposures and have not witnessed any issues at all PERIOD. Jack has done the same with his P65+ and again no issues whatsoever. Dick do yourself a favor before you actually believe the BS out there run the test yourself. If there is any issue like this i would have heard from Doug, Dave , Steve or Phase itself. Please be careful on what maybe some little marketing or axe to grind showmanship out there. I would really like to see real proof of this claim. The Hassy 60 is not out yet so who knows what walls it may or may not run into. They are both very well established systems so i really don't buy one of them may have some real serious issue that is being delivered to customers. Obviously shit happens but this one is out in left field as far as I see. I need to see real working proof in front of me to buy into this claim.

BTW for the record i actually like Hassy products and think they have a nice system out there, so I really don't have a bias between the two. The phase system just fits me better and i see some advantages on it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 11:46:55 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2010, 11:55:48 AM »
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Dick BTW I just bought the NEC wide gamut monitor two days ago and right off the bat i can see a lot more to my files and i mean a lot more. So not sure what someone else maybe seeing off a srgb monitor but these wide gamut monitors there is a whole new world out here with our files and they can see really deep into the shadows , really deep. Nothing I am seeing suggest that claim
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 12:20:16 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
If there is any issue like this i would have heard from Doug, Dave , Steve or Phase itself.
So you believe that Phase or their sales people would tell you if there was a problem, and I am a fool for taking note of what I read?

Quote from: bcooter
If I decide to by an hd40 or whatever it's called, and sell off my 4 contax's and 2 phase backs, a p31+ and a p21+ WILL I SEE A DIFFERENCE IN THE FINAL FILE?  Not a pixel peeping put a loupe on a 30" monitor difference but are the skin tones better, the color response prettier and not so Phase blotchy exact?
BC

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tho_mas
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2010, 12:36:42 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Quote from: tho_mas
Dick... any RAW converter provides shadow and highlight recovery.
Maybe... but I think Phocus 2.1 is an order of magnitude better...
I see  
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bcooter
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2010, 12:50:50 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
So you believe that


I think you took me out of context, but what I meant was on the Phase backs I own, I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact.   In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement.

(We have always fixed this in post and every image, still or motion,  that has a decent dollar value to it goes through many rounds of post production, but on set, first frame, first impressions mean a lot).

It had nothing to do with shadow detail or anything dark as long as the iso of a p30+ doesn't go over 200.  Past 200 I see some detail loss, but that's another topic.

This week we took a day to do some testing of Version 5 to see how it works for an upcoming project and I was more interested in the skin tone editor than anything.  I noticed the skin tone presets takes some of the exactness of color away from the look, but mostly by just adding a warm global color which wasn't what I wanted to see.    

To be fair, our studio manager is still testing, so we may find it more useful than I see at first glance.

Actually what I really was trying to duplicate is the look of the Canons with a little more detail, given the fact that so many of our advertising projects are shot on continuous backgrounds and we do so much manipulation in post like placing one person from one image into the next.

But, back to the topic, I don't see any problems in shadow detail, though I'm not using the latest generation Dalsa backs.

I think all of this is splitting hairs and it's not just this forum it's everything digital and as with any camera, film or digital, you work around whatever that camera gives you.  10% less highlight recovery, 10% less shadow detail doesn't mean much.

Now with that in mind and working in today's market where speed and flexibility is important, especially with continuous lighting sources, I would like to see something like a high speed sensor upgrade, (sensor, not the whole back).

Anyway . . .

I found this test somewhat informative, but once the testers got past film, the difference between the digital cameras was very small.

http://www.zacuto.com/shootout

(warning this is a long video with a somewhat corny intro, but it's informative).

I have a feeling if you lined up Leaf, Blad, Phase and Canon and did this same type of test, you'd see pretty much these same results, but the only way to keep this even is to fill the room with working photographers.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:10:35 PM by bcooter » Logged
PaulT
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 01:27:49 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Are these finished pictures, or un-post-processed?

Did you just use ambient, or any flash-fill or reflectors?

Have you considered a Hasselblad system... the raw shadow fill in Phocus 2.1 would help a great deal.


These are opened in Lightroom and sent to Silver Efex... that's all. Hasselblad's performance in rain, snow and ice is the reason (as noted twice in the post) that I am using the S2!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:28:30 PM by PaulT » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2010, 01:47:16 PM »
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Hi everybody,
The Zacuto test has been posted by them some days ago and discussed in 2 or 3 different threads here for days now.
It's a very informative test anyway.
If I remember there were some interesting thoughts about Red Cameras.

What was not clear in the test and has not been answered so far that I know, is the Skywalker ranch movie: with what gear has it been filmed?
A mixed of all the cameras tested?

Coming back to Red Cameras, if Canon is going to Raw video soon, it will be a great dilema for RED.

The other point that I still do not understand, is the constant insistance from James Russel (it starts to be legendary) to have the speed and flexibility of the Canons in MFD.
The reason why I do not understand it is because James is not convinced that putting the systems in a test, there will be (at least for 90% of his works) a noticiable difference. So what's the point if the gear and system that responds to James whishes already exists?
But (ok, maybe, for the fun) there is actually a difference...and the price to pay today is slower and less versatility.

But if Phase or whoever increments the sensor speed, will we not need to increment power in all the chain involved also?
Or this upgrade will be done in such a way that we would notice a speed increment with the same computers...mmm...that sounds strange.
So to power a studio if things keep going that way we'll soon need a nuclear central just for us right? And dozens of coolers, and more engineers,
and as we know that photography is paid better and better, what a nice world to live in.

Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.

Fred.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:56:10 PM by fredjeang » Logged
JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2010, 02:41:01 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Hi everybody,
The Zacuto test has been posted by them some days ago and discussed in 2 or 3 different threads here for days now.
It's a very informative test anyway.
If I remember there were some interesting thoughts about Red Cameras.

What was not clear in the test and has not been answered so far that I know, is the Skywalker ranch movie: with what gear has it been filmed?
A mixed of all the cameras tested?

Coming back to Red Cameras, if Canon is going to Raw video soon, it will be a great dilema for RED.

The other point that I still do not understand, is the constant insistance from James Russel (it starts to be legendary) to have the speed and flexibility of the Canons in MFD.
The reason why I do not understand it is because James is not convinced that putting the systems in a test, there will be (at least for 90% of his works) a noticiable difference. So what's the point if the gear and system that responds to James whishes already exists?
But (ok, maybe, for the fun) there is actually a difference...and the price to pay today is slower and less versatility.

But if Phase or whoever increments the sensor speed, will we not need to increment power in all the chain involved also?
Or this upgrade will be done in such a way that we would notice a speed increment with the same computers...mmm...that sounds strange.
So to power a studio if things keep going that way we'll soon need a nuclear central just for us right? And dozens of coolers, and more engineers,
and as we know that photography is paid better and better, what a nice world to live in.

Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.

Fred.

Nothing worthwhile happens instantly. Think about photography 100 years ago. We should be focused on our own shortcomings as photographers before we should complain about technology. It's too easy today to be a photographer as it is.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2010, 03:32:14 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
I think you took me out of context, but what I meant was on the Phase backs I own, I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact.   In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement.

(We have always fixed this in post and every image, still or motion,  that has a decent dollar value to it goes through many rounds of post production, but on set, first frame, first impressions mean a lot).

It had nothing to do with shadow detail or anything dark as long as the iso of a p30+ doesn't go over 200.  Past 200 I see some detail loss, but that's another topic.
Sorry if I "quoted you out of context". Your paragraph that mentioned "phase blotchy" was not very specific.

What you are talking about seems to me to be a bit like the difference between Velvia and Provia... some people think that Velvia is too vivid for portraits.

...but Hasselblads are know for vivid colour, and perhaps they might be considered OTT for portraiture... perhaps the "clarity" slider should be capable of being set to negative values to smooth skin!



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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2010, 04:00:53 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
So you believe that Phase or their sales people would tell you if there was a problem, and I am a fool for taking note of what I read?


Dick here is the point you quote something from a Hassy exec that points something out that Phase can't do which has no formal proof or samples of the so called problem. But you have users that have not mentioned it or a user ME that owns a P40+ back and that shot the P65+ more times than I can count and i do not see any issues at all. Plus tested the P65 at least 3 times formally although some not published and i am supposed to believe the Hassy guy when I am sitting here staring at the files. Wow i think I may need better meds or something to understand this one. Feel like there is a tall fish story in here somewhere. LOL

Dick end of the day you believe whatever you want. Certainly within your right to believe the written word without questioning it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 04:04:06 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2010, 04:28:11 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
...you have users that have not mentioned it or a user ME that owns a P40+ back and that shot the P65+ more times than I can count and i do not see any issues at all. Plus tested the P65 at least 3 times formally...
Like I said, it will be interesting to do a side by side comparison and see if there are any noticeable differences...

The question is
"what photos do we take to see if there are any significant differences between 2 cameras with the same pixel count"

... I think that, to compare the digibacks, it would be best to put them on the back of the Sinar, with apo-digitars, but that would mean that the Hasselblad would loose the advantage of the phocus lens corrections.
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2010, 04:45:08 PM »
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I have tested the P65 twice, and it has impressive range into the shadows, far better than my P45. It's a nice chip and I like it. This is a good advance by Phase, and you can buy it. If Hasselblad can soon do as well with this chip as Phase has over the past year or so, then they should have a winner, given their sharp lenses, geometric correction, focus that actually works and *usable* LCD.

Edmund
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