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Author Topic: Leica S2 in snow and sleet  (Read 9447 times)
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2010, 04:50:40 PM »
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Dick if your shooting with the Apo's you don't need Phocus lenses corrections that is for the Hassy H lenses. Best test is a cambo or other Tech camera with a high quality Apo lens and just switch rear mounts. Than again you would process Hassy in Phocus and Phase in C1 so still not apples to apples . Just like anything else the software is different . You can do some default stuff but again would be left to viewer discretion. I have done a lot of these tests between systems and they are not very easy to do and done in the most fair way. Last one was the S2 and P40+ with no profile worth a damn for the S2 and there still is not one. If you read the review you can see some of the S2 struggles in C1 and LR. Right now LR maybe better for it but it still needs tweaking. Both programs seriously over sharpen the files. These are tough test but again back to the P65+ seriously i don't know what came about on those comments but i have not seen anything that sticks out like mentioned. Big problem is Dick is knowing how to be really good at raw processing and that takes time and patience to really learn how to be really good at it. One reason i like doing things myself is i trust what I do or someone that I know is very very good at it.

I know we are very OT here but let me bring this back to the S2 it still does not have a great profile in C1 or a plugin for Lightroom that i would call on the money like say your h50 and Phocus and my P40+ and C1. It's still out there in left field looking for a home. The lenses are late to the market only 2 with a 35mm coming late this month and some on a wish list pretty far out. It's a nice system and i like it but it sat in the car for almost the whole workshop in the Salton Sea with one person playing around with it. Just no interest among the Phase shooters and Hassy shooters, not sure what to say about that but 30k sitting in my car does not say a lot for it in the minds of existing MF shooters. As nice and stylish as it maybe it needs to age fast before it becomes obsolete and Pentax is crawling right up there tail. Frankly I would not rule out anything coming it is the year of Photokinia and i am sure we will see some surprises. Yair just pointed out a new Brontax for example. This should be some interesting times ahead for US the end user. okay gotta run
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tho_mas
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2010, 05:07:43 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
no profile worth a damn for the S2 and there still is not one.
RAW Developper supports the S2.
Too, there is a profile in LR (i.e. a "camera calibration" matrix).
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Yair just pointed out a new Brontax
yeah, announced on April, 1st  
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mtomalty
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2010, 05:27:40 PM »
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Hi Paul

In the 2 sets of images you linked are you saying all were taken with the S2 ?

More than a few look like a significantly wider lens than 70 mm on a cropped sensor was used.

Mark
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2010, 07:16:29 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
RAW Developper supports the S2.
Too, there is a profile in LR (i.e. a "camera calibration" matrix).
yeah, announced on April, 1st  


Thanks Thomas i keep forgetting about Raw developer. My bad
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PaulT
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2010, 08:20:42 PM »
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Quote from: mtomalty
Hi Paul

In the 2 sets of images you linked are you saying all were taken with the S2 ?

More than a few look like a significantly wider lens than 70 mm on a cropped sensor was used.

Mark

The wides are with the M9 and 21 lens.
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abiggs
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »
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Great photos, Paul. Thanks for sharing.
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Andy Biggs
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2010, 08:40:55 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
. . . I find skin tones and color rendition very exact, actually too exact.   In other words if there is slight redness around a part of the face it picks it up to the point of enhancement. . . .

This week we took a day to do some testing of Version 5 to see how it works for an upcoming project and I was more interested in the skin tone editor than anything.  I noticed the skin tone presets takes some of the exactness of color away from the look, but mostly by just adding a warm global color which wasn't what I wanted to see.

This may possibly be of help - In the Color Editor (not the Skin Tone Tool you were using), select the Skin Tone Tab of the Color Editor (Basic-Advanced-Skin Tone); with the picker found in the Color Editor select an area of the skin; then adjust the Uniformity Slider.  This does (sometimes) reduce the slight redness around parts of the face.  Perhaps this could be a quick fix for viewing until you have a chance to do post work.
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ziocan
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2010, 09:29:16 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Seriously, what's the best speed we can have with MFD today with the very best computers availables?
If my calculations are not wrong it is +- 60 frames/min + about 50sec to have all the frames, so we are talking about 2 minutes for 60 frames.
This is simply slow.

Fred.
So it is 4 minutes for 120 frames.
120 frames should be plenty to get the picture you need. If it is not.... then time to change profession.
Then again if 4 to 5 minutes is too long for getting 1 picture done, it is also time to change clients, environment, planet or life.

I keep reading on this forum, that clients are waiting impatiently for the images to pop up on the screen and even a wait longer than 10 sec is not acceptable.
This led to the question: What are these guys doing to their clients to put them on such a state?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 09:30:43 PM by ziocan » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2010, 10:18:18 PM »
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Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Like I said, it will be interesting to do a side by side comparison and see if there are any noticeable differences...

The question is
"what photos do we take to see if there are any significant differences between 2 cameras with the same pixel count"

... I think that, to compare the digibacks, it would be best to put them on the back of the Sinar, with apo-digitars, but that would mean that the Hasselblad would loose the advantage of the phocus lens corrections.

Dick,

This is a waste of time.

You will buy the Hassy whatever the results and keep claiming that it is the best thing since sliced bread, P65+ users will do the same, Leica S2 will keep believing in the superiority of their lenses while the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 11:05:02 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

A few images online here!
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2010, 11:06:17 PM »
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Paul,

Nice B&W.

Do you have full size samples to be seen somewhere?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
wildlightphoto
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2010, 11:09:52 PM »
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Thanks for posting the beautiful photos, Paul.  There seem to be quite a few fair-weather photographers posting in this thread.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2010, 03:08:12 AM »
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Quote from: ziocan
So it is 4 minutes for 120 frames.
120 frames should be plenty to get the picture you need. If it is not.... then time to change profession.
Then again if 4 to 5 minutes is too long for getting 1 picture done, it is also time to change clients, environment, planet or life.

I keep reading on this forum, that clients are waiting impatiently for the images to pop up on the screen and even a wait longer than 10 sec is not acceptable.
This led to the question: What are these guys doing to their clients to put them on such a state?
This is exactly what I'm thinking.
Agree 100% with all you just said, my concern about to wich point this "pressure" is acceptable, real and not part of an over-pressure from the profession itself.
MFD speed is enough,
IT is just slow compared to 35mm systems, but enough is.

Fred.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2010, 05:02:15 AM »
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It will be interesting to do a side by side comparison between the P65+ and the H4D-60 (and the Leica S2) and see if there are any noticeable differences...
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Dick,

This is a waste of time.

You will buy the Hassy whatever the results and keep claiming that it is the best thing since sliced bread, P65+ users will do the same, Leica S2 will keep believing in the superiority of their lenses while the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
Thank you for your input, Bernard.

They might lend me a H4D-60 for the test, but I was thinking of doing the test when I have acquired my own.

As you have worked out, when I have bought an H4D-60, the results of the test are not likely to make me trade it in for a Phase!

And readers will conclude that I am biased in favor of the Hasselblad, so the Phase would need to be operated by someone who owns and appreciates one... could we find someone unbiased to write the summary?

It is difficult to make such a test useful, (even if there are significant differences between the cameras) for example for the few people who want their first MF system to be state of the art.

We would need to decide whether to compare digibacks or camera systems or what... I had envisaged comparing the 60 Mpx systems to 10*8 film and your pan-and-stitch technique, which I intend to use for some cylinder panoramas.

If we were to compare MF T/S cameras and Medium Format Digital View Cameras to large format cameras the results might be of interest to half a dozen LF users still thinking about switching to MFDVCs.
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
wildlightphoto
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2010, 06:17:59 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
... the new Pentax 645D owners will stay happy about the by far best price/quality ratio of their camera.

So far we've read a few things on the internet about price, but are there any owners yet, and what do we know about it's quality?  How did you extrapolate a price/quality ratio from the available data?  So far what I see it that the internet's reputation for accuracy is alive and well.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 06:19:32 AM by telyt » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2010, 07:48:08 AM »
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Quote from: telyt
So far we've read a few things on the internet about price, but are there any owners yet, and what do we know about it's quality?  How did you extrapolate a price/quality ratio from the available data?  So far what I see it that the internet's reputation for accuracy is alive and well.

I saw in the flesh prints made from it.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
wildlightphoto
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2010, 08:03:18 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I saw in the flesh prints made from it.

How did you compare these prints with prints made with other cameras?  Did you make side-by-side tests under controlled conditions?

IMHO it's premature to make any assumptions or come to any conclusions about equipment that nobody aside from the maker has been able to use.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2010, 08:54:17 AM »
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Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water . Please let's get real here, we heard that for over a year before anyone even looked at it. Never mind tested it outside Leica walls. We all heard it before my gun is bigger than your gun syndrome. The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost. Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large. People look at this as it will hurt Leica, Hassy, Phase and I believe it will actually help them as people will eventually move up to a more sophisticated system as they get into MF. I see the Pentax as a plus for the industry. Obviously that remains to be seen and certainly debatable but the Pentax has a good chance to make inroads. I have friends that are flying over to Japan to buy one on release.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 08:55:47 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

rogan
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2010, 02:42:57 PM »
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Quote from: PaulT
Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.

you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com

I will have a full report on the trip shortly on my Web site ( http://www.paultornaquindici.com ) . Until then I would say the camera is truly elegant, easy to get to the right menu quickly, presets worked very well and made for simple easy use. Love the lenses. And best of all the ability to have that quality when shooting out in the elements is a real joy. Which was exactly what I had wanted the camera to do in the first place.

There is an image (the second- number 2 on http://www.thingsnotseen.com ) that was shot handheld at 1/6 f4 at ISO 640 and it is one of my favorites.

PaulT

Paul,
 Nice photos but if you bought a leica to shoot in that weather? You could do wet plate process in that weather. Snow looks to be almost a 1/2 inch! I realize Bologna doesn't get a lot of snow.......
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2010, 08:47:36 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water

I never said it would smoke anything else.  I do have experience with several of the Leica APO lenses that the S lenses are based on, so it's reasonable to expect similar performance.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost.

So let's see if they cut any corners anywhere in order to deliver this sensor at the reported retail price.  The Pentax looks interesting, particularly if the existing lenses for the 645 film cameras perform well on this sensor... but except for one lens, the Pentax 645 lenses were designed in the film era, not for a digital sensor and as has been shown in many cases the digital sensor will expose flaws that film disguised.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large.

Yes Guy, I'm interested as well but let's see how it actually works before getting too excited.  My comparisons of Leica APO lenses and Pentax lenses have show the Pentax lenses are good on film, but that the Leica APO lenses I've used are in another league.
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abiggs
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2010, 08:51:19 PM »
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The tools we use are more than just about lenses, though. Good lenses are nice, but that is only one thing to evaluate a system on. Ergonomics, file quality, ease of use, support, etc etc etc are all things to look at. My hunch is that the Pentax system will be a good value, but the Leica will outperform it in the image quality department for many times the price. Horses for courses.
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Andy Biggs
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