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Author Topic: Leica S2 in snow and sleet  (Read 8970 times)
ziocan
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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2010, 10:24:07 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Doug little surprised to hear you say that when the S2 was the best thing in the world going still on paper and was supposed to smoke Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Leaf right out of the water . Please let's get real here, we heard that for over a year before anyone even looked at it. Never mind tested it outside Leica walls. We all heard it before my gun is bigger than your gun syndrome. The Pentax has some promise and has pretty much the same basic Kodak sensor as the S2 at a very low cost. Do we honestly think people are not going to compare at some level here to the S2. Pentax is well known for making very fine lenses and this is coming in at a price point that has people excited about it and frankly if it gets some folks off the 35mm/MF fence than it is good for the industry at large. People look at this as it will hurt Leica, Hassy, Phase and I believe it will actually help them as people will eventually move up to a more sophisticated system as they get into MF. I see the Pentax as a plus for the industry. Obviously that remains to be seen and certainly debatable but the Pentax has a good chance to make inroads. I have friends that are flying over to Japan to buy one on release.
I think you made some valid points.

I think one of the keys to the success of the Pentax will be AF speed, accuracy and shutter lag.
We have already discussed on other threads that it does not matter if you have a 60mp sensor and a Leica or Zeiss lens on front of it, if the pic is not as sharp as the system could allow in the ideal conditions on a standing subject.
What all the current MF systems lack and it is the main reason why many of us are leaving them on the shelf and using the DSLR instead, is the precision of their AF when the subject is moving, even if just slowly.
Even the Leica, that I have found of having the best AF of all the MF system currently on the market, cannot make it next to an high end dslr on taking a photo of someone simply walking toward the camera. It is a very simple fact that if we use any of those MF taking a photo of someone moving, and I'm not talking about Usain Bolt, 80% of the shots will be worth 10mp at their best and sometime not even that.

IF the Pentax AF system is nearly as good as the one on their 1000$ DSLR, for many photographers it will not matter that it cannot mount a Leica, Zeiss or Fuji/Hasselblad lens. It would simply delivers usable images when the others could not.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 10:28:52 PM by ziocan » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2010, 10:54:11 PM »
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Actually The DF can on continuous and it works pretty dang good even with a 300mm 4.5 AF. I use it for runway projects a lot and it keeps up very nicely.


Now Doug I did not exactly say you said it can smoke the other MF systems but let's face it LUF forum is so incredible bias on Leica i almost can't read it anymore, actually stopped posting myself on that site it's like talking to a steel wall. The Red dot is like brain washing and the smoking of systems has been going on forever even Leica's marketing is saying it. LOL

What i see the Pentax doing for a low cost is getting folks a shot at MF for a good entry point. But it has a LONG way to go in respects to Hassy and Phase system wide, software wise and performance. Same issue for the S2 .

BTW Doug many folks are shooting old V glass and Zeiss glass for Contax in digital . Some maybe not cutting the cheese but a lot are and doing a fine job of it. Just look at the many Contax shooters bolting on Phase and leaf backs. The Mamiya 120mm macro was not designed for digital and one of the best macro out there in MF. So yes some lenses are not very good when they hit digital but some are still very very good as well.
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bcooter
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2010, 01:32:51 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I use it for runway projects a lot and it keeps up very nicely.

You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.

http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan

In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers.  Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.

http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/

Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.

Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and  used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.

Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.

Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night.  Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.

So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.



That'll probably get you more attention.

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2010, 03:58:35 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.

Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and  used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.

BC
All that points are absolutely true.

A 1D MK 3 or 4  is a perfect tool.
Recently, I spoke with a well known fashion photographer that told me that it's been a long time now he only shoot Canon for all the reasons exposed here.
No hassle, responsive and does a more than usable output for campaigns in different mediums. I saw some big prints (heavily PP), they did look great.
When people in the studio knows how to, you can do a lot with these cropped sensors.

2) We were looking at his old website made with flash, and he asked me if I could design something that would work for Iphone, Ipad etc...
Adobe will release anyway a "flash" integrated with HP, and it means that flash is not dead yet, but there is a great concern about that and people want to display with this mediums now.

3) 3D will be IMHO the next step.

I've always liked much more the MF, but for a lot of applications, this is going to be (talking in the state of current gears) less and less used. I do not see any Pentax 645 D for these kind of works, neither a Leica S2.
Simply because megapixels is not the only parameter.
To be honest, I've been amazed how I could enlarge from Raw file a 12MP Pentax KX (entry level camera) file without practicaly no loosing IQ to 18MP-20MP at 300ppp.
No problem for catalogues, covers etc..These new sensors are really much better than what was available some years ago.

Fred.
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rolleiflexpages
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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2010, 04:46:54 AM »
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Quote from: PaulT
Thanks to some great efforting by David Farkas I was able to get 2 S2 bodies with 70, 180 lenses for a recent 4 day trip to Bologna. I took a M9 w 21 lux as backup.
The second day in Bologna they were hit with an huge snowstorm. Snow, sleet and driving rain for 3 days in a row- many of the people had never seen the city with that much snow in their lifetime. This was great because I had purchased the Leica system to use in rough conditions. Rather than having to put the MF system away at the first sign of bad weather I wanted to be able to shoot without worries (as I had with my Canon system) and take advantage of the great glass. So for 2 days in the sub 30 degree, rain, ice and snow I walked around with the S2 and M9 hanging unprotected on my shoulders. I wiped them off when I could not see thru the viewfinder and kept shooting.

you can see some of the images here:
B&W- http://www.thingsnotseen.com
Color- http://www.thingshopedfor.com

PaulT

Hi Paul, very nice images indeed but "huge snowstorm" it does not look like ;-) Guess all is relative.
Regarding bad weather, did you use the S2 unprotected under heavy rain? If yes, no issues at all, including with the lenses?

An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal
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Pascal Heyman - www.rolleiflexpages.com
Rolleiflex 6008 AF + DB20p, Rolleiflex Hy6, Leaf AFi-II 7
PaulT
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« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2010, 07:16:16 AM »
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Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Hi Paul, very nice images indeed but "huge snowstorm" it does not look like ;-) Guess all is relative.
Regarding bad weather, did you use the S2 unprotected under heavy rain? If yes, no issues at all, including with the lenses?

An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal


It was for them a huge snowstorm 8-10 inches of snow... funny to see people clearing the side walks with serving tray etc... Both the S2 and the M9 were UNPROTECTED hanging off my shoulder in cold driving rain and snow for 2 days. The M9 viewfinder got a bit hazy after moving indoors and back out... but I would just blow the water out of the finder and  keep shooting. Lenses did well. The lenshoods kept the water off the glass.

Here's the view shooting the church scene in the color shots-
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PaulT
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« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2010, 07:25:03 AM »
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An important question would be how you like the 3:2 image format as compared to the "standard" MF 4:3 format. How did that work for you?
Thanks
Pascal
[/quote]
Once I started shooting I never even thought about that... just framed in the viewfinder and kept moving.

I know there has been lots of "discussion" in the thread about this system or that... to ME... the key here was I was able to have MF quality in a weather sealed package. This is terrific. I treated the camera as I would my Canon 1Ds bodies and it worked fine.
We can talk for days about this format or that but try and take your H3 / Phase One out in the weather conditions I like- Antarctica, Iceland, Ireland, Amazon- and you will have to put them away!

(I owned H3 gear and switched to Phase One P65+ when I used the back in Antarctica for the first time on demo from Kevin Raber. I use the back on Alpa now and really love it... but I wouldn't walk under waterfalls or shoot for two days in the pouring rain with either my H3 or the P1 stuff... I always had to fall back to Canon gear. NOW that doesn't have to happen. It doesn't mean I wont be shooting P1 anymore..... As Michael always reminds us "Different horses for different courses")
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2010, 07:28:17 AM »
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Quote from: telyt
How did you compare these prints with prints made with other cameras?  Did you make side-by-side tests under controlled conditions?

IMHO it's premature to make any assumptions or come to any conclusions about equipment that nobody aside from the maker has been able to use.

I don't believe that this is required to back up my initial statement.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2010, 07:58:50 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.

http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan

In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers.  Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.

http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/

Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.

Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and  used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.

Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.

Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night.  Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.

So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.



That'll probably get you more attention.

BC


These are model and conventions that my wife produces . More kids trying to break into the business . Still they are moving just as fast and that is more the point as they get on stage they walk the T pretty much just as fast as any real fashion show. I'm using sensor plus since they do go on screen later in the evening so processing needs to be fast but not jpeg out of the camera fast. I have a few hours to get a show ready for the evening. Also the 300mm AF lens with DF and P40+ on a monopod. I do handheld but at different times but no longer than the 150mm. Now if i did this all the time than I would certainly go for a Canon or Nikon as it would serve me better in the long run. Point being I can get it done with my existing MF kit. Also I could really shoot about 20 frames per kid if I wanted to shoot that many. We are talking 1200 kids so I will shot the max 5 as that is all I really need. Also I don't need to knock someone on there ass to work either as these are closed conventions and whoever is shooting is controlled with video and still shooters. Basically I have control of the riser on who is on it and who is not. I did do a report on this with sensor plus which many folks pass off as some gimmick until they actually put it in practice or try it they would be quite surprised how useful it really is and fast.  In this case the S2 would not only be a slow train to process with 70mg DNG's it would not do continuous focus either. Frankly I would not even attempt it. I have done these with the P25, P30 many times and reduced the output on processing but I used to bring a MacPro to these. With sensor plus I can just use the MBP instead. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2010, 08:37:20 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I don't believe that this is required to back up my initial statement.

Believe what you wish to.
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2010, 08:41:20 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Now Doug I did not exactly say you said it can smoke the other MF systems but let's face it LUF forum is so incredible bias on Leica i almost can't read it anymore, actually stopped posting myself on that site it's like talking to a steel wall. The Red dot is like brain washing and the smoking of systems has been going on forever even Leica's marketing is saying it. LOL

Guy what the S2 has that appeals to me is DSLR handling and weather sealing in a compact medium-format body, with competitive image quality.  The dot could be hot pink for all I care.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2010, 08:55:45 AM »
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Quote from: telyt
Guy what the S2 has that appeals to me is DSLR handling and weather sealing in a compact medium-format body, with competitive image quality.  The dot could be hot pink for all I care.


I know exactly what you are after Doug and it does do that better than any MF system to date with a DSLR handling. That one I totally understand where you are coming from. What I found though and it depends if your going to like the balance is the body is light but the glass is a semi truck. The question for you and folks that shoot like you do is when are those long lenses coming or frankly any of the lenses promised. It's been real slow on that end and that bugs me. One lens per every 6 months it seems like on a brand new system makes me question WHY so long when they have had a lot of time from development, production to on the street which roughly 2 years or so is there only 2 out today with 35mm coming end of month. Now don't get me wrong I spent my time with the S2 and i liked it but what I don't like is it is not a full system yet either. Maybe it does not matter to some and I view things from a working pro perspective and from my seat not ready to jump on until I see a lot more of it. I do agree it has some things i wish other MF solutions had. I'm also tough on this system but I also want Leica to come through on it as well.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2010, 11:34:53 AM »
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I've been asking in another thread the MFD reliability in extreme weather conditions: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=42240
Why the S2 would be more suitable for extreme conditions than the others?
Remember that the M9 does not claim weather seals.
As M.Reichmann said many times, we should not give that much credit to weather's marketing.

Fred.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2010, 12:16:29 PM »
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The weather sealing with the rubber gaskets slows and stiffens manual focusing on the S2 so that is the downside. Also in very extreme weather some Pro's will actually have the grease removed from the camera's and use a more suitable lubricant for this type of work but this is very extreme cold. I use a 29 cent 2 gallon zip lock bag in the rain, cut a hole for the lens shade a little gaffer tape and viola. Ugly as hell but works a charm. LOL
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fredjeang
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« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2010, 12:30:32 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The weather sealing with the rubber gaskets slows and stiffens manual focusing on the S2 so that is the downside. Also in very extreme weather some Pro's will actually have the grease removed from the camera's and use a more suitable lubricant for this type of work but this is very extreme cold. I use a 29 cent 2 gallon zip lock bag in the rain, cut a hole for the lens shade a little gaffer tape and viola. Ugly as hell but works a charm. LOL
Guy, do you have a pic of you working with this ugly home-made solution?  

Fred.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2010, 12:49:20 PM »
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Actually i had a iphone shot of it and it was pretty funny. Truth be told I did use it on a project here in town when the Southwest was getting 4 or 5 days of solid rain. One of my clients supports these disaster relief projects and they asked me to shoot the floods. It was kind of fun but rained cats and dogs . Truly the only way to do it was some type of rain cover. It really worked good except the viewfinder was a little tough looking through a bag. LOL

End of day you gotta do what you gotta do.  I think every Pro would say this is the majority of the work they do everyday is find solutions. I believe that is mainly our job no matter what field of photography we are always trying to solve things to get image to sensor.
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2010, 10:15:15 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
... The question for you and folks that shoot like you do is when are those long lenses coming or frankly any of the lenses promised...

Yup I don't need a whole lot of lenses but the lens I'd use most seems to exist only on paper (or, in ones and zeros) so far.  Not sure what existing long lenses there are for the Pentax but an older lens available now trumps a diffraction-limited superachromat promised for some unknown date.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2010, 03:06:45 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
You've mentioned this runway gig before and I'm not sure what shows your shooting with a phase/mamiya, but at the venues at the Louvre, Fiera and Bryant park, (and the smaller venues ) those guys and girls that work the risers are some very serious individuals and none of them would think about shooting anything that doesn't work at many frames a second, usually with a 1.3 or 1.5 cropped camera and one fast zoom lens, usually two bodies and lenses they can almost work simultaneously.

http://fashionism.ca/runway/fall_winter_2009/milan

In fact serious is a mild term for the intensity in the risers.  Move one elbow into somebody's line of sight and you start missing body parts.

http://blogs.glam.com/glamchic/2008/02/04/...k-photographer/

Now, before someone says, yea but that stuff is only shown in small web pages, or some flip book from the designer, that's not the case anymore.

Actually, to segway this into the NY Times thread on this forum, the runway photographs have for years taken the place of commissioned shoots of the designers seasonal collection for look books . . . to the point that those little 10 and 12 mpx images are often retouched repurposed and  used for international advertising, in store (still and motion), packaging, tags, outdoor as well as all forms of editorial.

Don't think for a second if that bunch of photographers thought that an extra dozen or so megapixels would one up them from their competition, that they wouldn't be buying different cameras overnight.

Also remember they turn this stuff around as they go, usually uploading during the day and through the night.  Doing one show is hard, dong 45 out of 80 is somewhere within the realm of playing 4 world cup soccer matches a day.

So, just a hint if you plan on working any of those shows, leave the Mamiya behind and invest the money in a new designer I-pad cover.



That'll probably get you more attention.

BC


Yes, it appears to have become fashionable to use runway shots for a lot of things these days. Probably a combination of costs and the fact many parties seem to be doing this at the moment. Serious people that work very hard and are quite vicious to defend the spot they are on, that is needed for their signature shot. Kind of like sportsshooters and papperazzi. Most I have seen are using the white variations.  

Personally I would not want to be doing this.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 03:07:52 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Deep
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2010, 04:10:57 PM »
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Good to know the Leica does what it says on the box re weather proofing.  Thanks for the information.
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Don
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