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Author Topic: P65+ and lens selections  (Read 7219 times)
scott morrish
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« on: April 06, 2010, 02:53:50 PM »
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I have spent a little time looking at the new Phase One camera, with the Phase One 150mm lens today.
I am a little puzzled about what i am seeing when comparing the lenses performance with a much older H 150mm lens on a H1.

From what i can see, the Phase 150 is better than the H150 in terms of Chromatic aberration, but surprisingly, the Phase lens does not seem to be as sharp at equivalent apertures.

As a quick disclaimer (having seen others roasted for not producing scientifically rigorous tests)... I'll happily confess that I am not particularly technical and i like to keep things simple: so i used the same focal length / shutter / aperture combinations and simply looked at the raw files (with everything zeroed on import) side by side in LR2.6 - with the hope of ensuring a 'relatively' level playing field. In both cases i used P65s on tripods with mirrors-locked-up, 2 second delay... etc.

This leaves me with a few questions:
[1] Does anyone find that the newer 'Phase' lenses either equal or better the 'H' lenses at equivalent focal lengths?
[2] ... and if so which are better / worse?

and on a slightly different tack...
[3] Looking at alternative camera systems for 60MP backs... (Artec / Linhoff etc) would you expect better performance from the 'best' lenses, when compared to Hasselblad or Phase lenses?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...
Scott
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 03:01:52 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
I have spent a little time looking at the new Phase One camera, with the Phase One 150mm lens today.
I am a little puzzled about what i am seeing when comparing the lenses performance with a much older H 150mm lens on a H1.

From what i can see, the Phase 150 is better than the H150 in terms of Chromatic aberration, but surprisingly, the Phase lens does not seem to be as sharp at equivalent apertures.

As a quick disclaimer (having seen others roasted for not producing scientifically rigorous tests)... I'll happily confess that I am not particularly technical and i like to keep things simple: so i used the same focal length / shutter / aperture combinations and simply looked at the raw files (with everything zeroed on import) side by side in LR2.6 - with the hope of ensuring a 'relatively' level playing field. In both cases i used P65s on tripods with mirrors-locked-up, 2 second delay... etc.

This leaves me with a few questions:
[1] Does anyone find that the newer 'Phase' lenses either equal or better the 'H' lenses at equivalent focal lengths?
[2] ... and if so which are better / worse?

and on a slightly different tack...
[3] Looking at alternative camera systems for 60MP backs... (Artec / Linhoff etc) would you expect better performance from the 'best' lenses, when compared to Hasselblad or Phase lenses?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...
Scott

Should be using capture one software to compare instead of lightroom.
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scott morrish
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 03:19:59 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
Should be using capture one software to compare instead of lightroom.

would it tell a different story?
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JDG
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 03:28:30 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
Should be using capture one software to compare instead of lightroom.


I'll second that... MUCH better quality than Lightroom with the P65+.

As for the lenses, I have the Phase 150mm and have found it to be exceptional.  extremely sharp, and an over all better performer than the H.  In full disclosure I haven't used the H 150 in a couple years, but I always found it to be so so.... I have not tested the recent revision of it which I am told is much better.

While the 75-150 zoom is very good, for a zoom, I think the 150 is much better, and its really my favorite lens.

I find the 80mm lenses to be very comparable between Phase and Hasselblad.
Both 120mm lenses are extremely good, though the H probably wins out for being AF.
The Phase 28mm is very good...  The H is not compatible.
I also found the Phase 45mm and the H 50mm to be similar.

When it comes to H lenses overall, most are very good, though I thought the quality on the 50-110 and 100mm were not as good as I would expect.  I've seen 2 50-110 lenses produce wildly different color temperatures on the same back/camera on several occasions.

Over all Both systems make fantastic lenses...  All the Phase One branded lenses and Mamiya Sekor D will give you top notch quality. The older lenses are not as good.. but they are very cheap.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 03:30:50 PM »
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Yes big time . LR basically is not Phase file friendly for starters. C1 is designed for their backs make no mistake about it. There algorithms and profiles get the absolute best out of the files. Also not sure what 150mm you have tried but the older one is okay nothing really special, on the other hand the 150MM D lens is killer and maybe one of their best lenses around. To get the most out of the P65 back i recommend all the D lenses for it. I have the P40+ but shoot the P65+ quite often. My lens selection right now is the 28D, 45D, 80D, 150D and i do have a 50mm old Shift lens that works very well and a older 200mm 2.8 manual focus that is also very sharp. The 70 -150D is also very good as well as the 300mm AF 4.5.

But do yourself a favor and get a trial version of C1 and use that.  Hope that helps, the P65 is a extremely nice back and the detail from it is quite amazing.

JDG seems we posted the exact same time but both agree
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 03:32:25 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

scott morrish
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 04:14:01 PM »
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FWIW... i have C1 Pro: swings and roundabouts in my mind, but that thread is already well-worn.
Remember that i am not comparing software in this instance... i am simply comparing lenses.

I realise both H and P systems are good: no doubting that.
I also realise that many will only be able to contemplate C1: but crucially... i fail to see how it could tell a factually different story to LR?
Can C1 make a relatively sharper image softer... or visa versa? I hope not or my world just got more complicated... again!

So... getting back to the idea of a comparing two lenses, on a level (if not optimal) playing field... any thoughts?
Has anyone looked at them side by side and found the opposite to me?

My reason for posting the question, is because i find it hard to believe what i am seeing.
I expected the Phase lens to be clearly better on every measure: it is several years newer... and at 6OMP... i thought that'd show.

As for the P65+ ... yes, its ability to capture detail is amazing!
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tho_mas
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 04:15:08 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
and on a slightly different tack...
[3] Looking at alternative camera systems for 60MP backs... (Artec / Linhoff etc) would you expect better performance from the 'best' lenses, when compared to Hasselblad or Phase lenses?
I don't know the H or Phase lenses and in particular not on a P65. But the Contax lenses on a P45...
First, the Digitar and HR lenses are better, especially at the edges. But the difference is not that spectacular as one might think... actually; at least the Contax lenses are quite contrasty and quite sharp.
But if you take post work into account - software distortion + perspective correction (always including cropping) vs. movements with LF lenses - the final difference can be remarkable.

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scott morrish
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 04:21:57 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
I don't know the H or Phase lenses and in particular not on a P65. But the Contax lenses on a P45...
First, the Digitar and HR lenses are better, especially at the edges. But the difference is not that spectacular as one might think... actually; at least the Contax lenses are quite contrasty and quite sharp.
But if you take post work into account - software distortion + perspective correction (always including cropping) vs. movements with LF lenses - the final difference can be remarkable.

So reading between the lines, you are saying that there may be less work in post production... as well as better overall results. Am i reading this correctly?
And by the way... which are the star performers in your lens line-up?


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tho_mas
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 04:28:03 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
So reading between the lines, you are saying that there may be less work in post production... as well as better overall results. Am i reading this correctly?
yes, correct!

Quote
And by the way... which are the star performers in your lens line-up?
  that's easy: the Digitar 47XL and recently the Apo Sironar Digital 70 (aka "Digaron-W 70) ... I only have those 2 lenses.
But here are quite a few photographers using a lot more of those lenses... maybe they can tell you a bit more...

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macz5024
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 04:32:38 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
FWIW... i have C1 Pro: swings and roundabouts in my mind, but that thread is already well-worn.
Remember that i am not comparing software in this instance... i am simply comparing lenses.

I realise both H and P systems are good: no doubting that.
I also realise that many will only be able to contemplate C1: but crucially... i fail to see how it could tell a factually different story to LR?
Can C1 make a relatively sharper image softer... or visa versa? I hope not or my world just got more complicated... again!

So... getting back to the idea of a comparing two lenses, on a level (if not optimal) playing field... any thoughts?
Has anyone looked at them side by side and found the opposite to me?

My reason for posting the question, is because i find it hard to believe what i am seeing.
I expected the Phase lens to be clearly better on every measure: it is several years newer... and at 6OMP... i thought that'd show.

As for the P65+ ... yes, its ability to capture detail is amazing!


I have compared the two systems extensively now - since I am working with the H1-P65+ combo right now. The 150 mm by Phase is stellar compared to the 150 mm H-lens.
I have also compared the 120 mm H-lens with the 150 mm (H) - and I am glad keeping my 120 mm instead of the 150 mm...
The 120mm-H lens is better than the Mamiya 120 mm - not only because of the AF - you can use it both for Macro and for infinity - the latter gets difficult for the Mamyia lens.
For now I still stick to the H-system because the H-camera is al lot more user friendly. The Phamyia DF is ok - and even much better than the H-camera when it comes to focussing manually. If looking at the lenses, there are two big issues for me: the 300 mm H-lens is much better than the Mamiya 300 mm - and there is no equivalent to the 50-110 mm on the Phase/Mamiya side - seems like they are sleeping there!

However - after having suffered quite a time with lens errors, reattach lens... - with my nice H1 system I am longing for switching to a Phase system on the level of the 80/150 mm with a camera that matches the state of the art of digital cameras.

Markus
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scott morrish
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 04:33:39 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
yes, correct!

   that's easy: the Digitar 47XL and recently the Apo Sironar Digital 70 (aka "Digaron-W 70) ... I only have those 2 lenses.
But here are quite a few photographers using a lot more of those lenses... maybe they can tell you a bit more...

thank you...
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 04:49:12 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
From what i can see, the Phase 150 is better than the H150 in terms of Chromatic aberration, but surprisingly, the Phase lens does not seem to be as sharp at equivalent apertures.

The Phase 150mm is one of the best lenses I've tested on any platform. I would review/double-check your method of testing or ask your dealer to try another copy of the lens (maybe that one was e.g. dropped at some point).

Doug Peterson
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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scott morrish
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
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Quote from: macz5024
However - after having suffered quite a time with lens errors, reattach lens... - with my nice H1 system I am longing for switching to a Phase system on the level of the 80/150 mm with a camera that matches the state of the art of digital cameras.

Markus

My situation is similar. And it is only today, after a long, long wait to test the DF and new lenses... that i have begun to realise that i may also be sticking with the H1 for a while longer. I am surprised at the awkwardness of the DF. Mirror can not be left up. AEL does not work in manual mode. No user settable button (which we all got used to on the H1). Still heavy (why so heavy?). No magnifier for the viewfinder? And why such an awkward switch on the front of the camera for switching between M, S, C etc?  I am genuinely surprised to be thinking these thoughts... as i am more than ready to part with the H1.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 05:25:45 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
My situation is similar. And it is only today, after a long, long wait to test the DF and new lenses... that i have begun to realise that i may also be sticking with the H1 for a while longer. I am surprised at the awkwardness of the DF. Mirror can not be left up. AEL does not work in manual mode. No user settable button (which we all got used to on the H1). Still heavy (why so heavy?). No magnifier for the viewfinder? And why such an awkward switch on the front of the camera for switching between M, S, C etc?  I am genuinely surprised to be thinking these thoughts... as i am more than ready to part with the H1.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/03/...stom-functions/

The AEL and AF buttons can be swapped for rear button focus (the most common setting for the user-setting button on the H body - at least in my market).

You can get a magnifier for the viewfinder from any Mamiya/Phase dealer.

Switching systems almost always leaves you wondering where things are and missing the unique advantages of the older system (mirror can remain up between exposures). Give it a few weeks and you'll (likely) start to feel more comfortable and you'll start to appreciate some of the unique advantages of the new system (e.g. both focal plane and leaf shutter lenses).

Doug Peterson
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scott morrish
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 05:45:26 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/03/...stom-functions/

The AEL and AF buttons can be swapped for rear button focus (the most common setting for the user-setting button on the H body - at least in my market).

You can get a magnifier for the viewfinder from any Mamiya/Phase dealer.

Switching systems almost always leaves you wondering where things are and missing the unique advantages of the older system (mirror can remain up between exposures). Give it a few weeks and you'll (likely) start to feel more comfortable and you'll start to appreciate some of the unique advantages of the new system (e.g. both focal plane and leaf shutter lenses).

Doug Peterson
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Appreciate your feedback Doug, but swapping AEL and AF buttons still wont make AEL work in M mode.
The old 'periscope' focusing aid isn't easy to use (and focusing shouldn't be difficult) unless there is something new i have not been made aware of...
As for the leaf and focal plane shutters... great if its useful to you... otherwise it simply adds cost and weight.
And granted, familiarity would make things... more familiar... but really testing equipment ahead of jumping ships doesn't allow much time for that...

FWIW... i just ran through the comparisons in C1 Pro. The softer image is still from the Phase 150mm.
I'll talk to my dealer again tomorrow as you suggest: they are good people.
I just wondered wether others had found the same as me... or not?
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kdphotography
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 07:26:16 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
....The old 'periscope' focusing aid isn't easy to use (and focusing shouldn't be difficult) unless there is something new i have not been made aware of...
....

You might be thinking of the Mamiya Angle finder FA401 as the "periscope."  The Magnifying Finder is the FD402.  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=m...itialSearch=yes

My 150mm D is fantastic.  The new D series lenses are top-notch, but the 150 D is my favorite by far.  Very fast focusing on the 645DF.
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2010, 08:17:50 PM »
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I'll add my 2c worth - one of the two sharpest lenses I own is the 150 mm D. (The other is the 135/1.8 Zeiss for Sony). It is very sharp wide open and perfect at f4.
Bill
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scott morrish
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2010, 02:40:08 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
The Phase 150mm is one of the best lenses I've tested on any platform. I would review/double-check your method of testing or ask your dealer to try another copy of the lens (maybe that one was e.g. dropped at some point).

[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson

Well, as advised, i reviewed and double-checked, and from what i can see, i still think there is an issue, but possibly with the DF body more than the 150mm lens. It seems, that the new Phase 55 and 80mm LS lenses are better than the older Hasselblad equivalents, as one would hope / expect, most notably in terms of CA... but the 150 mm tells a different story.

As before, my disclaimer is that i am not particularly technical. I keep things simple - cameras on tripods, 2 second delay, all the usual common sense for working with high-end equipment, and I judge with my eyes, and in this case the eyes of my dealer too, as they'd quite like me to go on and buy the kit that i tested! Admittedly I am kind of fussy, especially when things are very expensive... and for me seeing is preferable to believing.  

So, back to the new 150. At the same aperture and shutter speed combinations, the Phase lens manages to out-perfom (apparent detail / sharpness) the H lens at F5.6, and perhaps more importantly at 1/160 sec. Stopping down to F8 / 11 / 16, with with correspondingly slower shutter speeds of 1/80, 1/40, 1/20th, and the tables turn: the Hasselblad lens is noticeably crisper. (In terms of CA, the phase lens is always better from what i have seen to date).

Does the DF suffer from the shakes?
Would it show on a P45 (i am on a P65)?
Anyone else notice softer images below 1/80th second?

And FWIW... the same story is revealed in LR 2.6 / LR3 // C1 Pro 5. whatever it is now... all show the exact same issues.

I realise that i may be mistaken... which is why i asked the original question.
Now back to waiting to hear something / anything from Phase about how and when this issue will be resolved, if it is an issue (?), but in the mean time I am still happily awe-struck by the P65+, and it is still stuck to the back of my trusty old H1.
Back to work...
Scott
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 02:59:01 PM by scott morrish » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2010, 03:18:19 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
Well, as advised, i reviewed and double-checked, and from what i can see, i still think there is an issue, but possibly with the DF body more than the 150mm lens. It seems, that the new Phase 55 and 80mm LS lenses are better than the older Hasselblad equivalents, as one would hope / expect, most notably in terms of CA... but the 150 mm tells a different story.

As before, my disclaimer is that i am not particularly technical. I keep things simple - cameras on tripods, 2 second delay, all the usual common sense for working with high-end equipment, and I judge with my eyes, and in this case the eyes of my dealer too, as they'd quite like me to go on and buy the kit that i tested! Admittedly I am kind of fussy, especially when things are very expensive... and for me seeing is preferable to believing.  

So, back to the new 150. At the same aperture and shutter speed combinations, the Phase lens manages to out-perfom (apparent detail / sharpness) the H lens at F5.6, and perhaps more importantly at 1/160 sec. Stopping down to F8 / 11 / 16, with with correspondingly slower shutter speeds of 1/80, 1/40, 1/20th, and the tables turn: the Hasselblad lens is noticeably crisper. (In terms of CA, the phase lens is always better from what i have seen to date).

Does the DF suffer from the shakes?
Would it show on a P45 (i am on a P65)?
Anyone else notice softer images below 1/80th second?

And FWIW... the same story is revealed in LR 2.6 / LR3 // C1 Pro 5. whatever it is now... all show the exact same issues.

I realise that i may be mistaken... which is why i asked the original question.
Now back to waiting to hear something / anything from Phase about how and when this issue will be resolved, if it is an issue (?)...

Sounds like you are discovering how carefully one must use a 60 megapixel sensor when dealing with shutter speeds like 1/20th of a second with a long focal plane lens. The Hassy H body uses leaf shutter lenses (and leaf shutter lenses only) - this has advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is that there is less net-motion caused by the shutter during the exposure (disadvantages would include a low maximum shutter speed, and increased weight/size/manufacturing-cost of the lens, and a tendency towards showing diffraction earlier in the f-stop range).

The DF body can use both leaf shutter lenses and focal plane lenses. When using a focal plane lens the motion of the shutter needs to be accounted for. The motion (or vibration/bounce) of the shutter is insignificant at most shutter speeds but when using a longer lens in the "danger zone" of 1/4th to 1/15th (or so) it will be a challenge. You'll want to be very careful of your tripod/head selection and increase your self timer (used after the mirror up) to be several seconds rather than 1 or 2 seconds. Carrying a high quality ND or polarizing filter can also help you jump the system down the stop needed to get out of that range.

Many many many of our landscape shooters use this lens and love it. All of them have had to learn through trial and error which tripods, which heads, and what settings will take full advantage of the P65+ 60 megapixel full-frame sensor.

By the way the "mirror-dampening" and "shutter-bounce-reduction" of the DF is already the best of any focal plane MF body I've used. I'm sure this will always be an area they work on (like every company always works on autofocus), but they cant' change physics.

I maintain this is one of the best lenses I've used on any platform: fast f-stop (f/2.Cool, great color, great bokeh, great sharpness even wide open, very low CA even wide open even without software lens corrections, smooth focus operation, fast autofocus performance, manageable filter size, relatively light weight and compact size, good minimum focus distance.

Doug Peterson
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scott morrish
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2010, 04:13:08 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Many many many of our landscape shooters use this lens and love it. All of them have had to learn through trial and error which tripods, which heads, and what settings will take full advantage of the P65+ 60 megapixel full-frame sensor.

Hi Doug,

Most of my exposures are on the slow side, with a long lens, and they are always on a tripod. I have not had any issues of soft images, at any speed with the H system (besides user error), for the obvious reasons you outline.

It sounds like you have either tested (or know people that have tested) this body and lens combination at a range of speeds below 1/80th and had good results: in which case can i ask what tripod / head combination you / Phase would recommend?

Scott

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