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Author Topic: P65+ and lens selections  (Read 7051 times)
scott morrish
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2010, 02:35:01 PM »
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Quote from: design_freak
I understand your frustration. But such is life. I like both systems, I have no interest to be for any brand. Evaluate equipment such as it is. If someone writes about the Mamiya 28mm lens is the best, it mildly odds with the truth. And this is only because he is the lucky owner of the equipment brands PhaseOne. Rejoice at his happiness. Has the right to do so. Identified with the hardware. Everything is correct. Why are not the owners of P1 to the manufacturer's claim that it had not prepared for such an eventuality. (hasselblad have right to do)  Why does not mention the body "h1/h2" on PhaseOne DF. After all, digitalback is the largest expense and not the body. Simply replace the equipment and stop complaining (body) I know I have a strange way of perceiving the world. But as I do not like something, I do not complain, only to change it. This way you can punish such a producer. In this case it's brand Hasselblad. I do not believe that was profitable to them to open the system. The matter is simple, a world ruled by money. If you're a fan of P1 should move to 100% for this system and the sooner that is done the better for you.
Sorry if it offended anyone, this was not my goal. I just wanted to present a problem from my point of view. Phase In my opinion, should be prepared that the external company will perform such a move. And that P1 bears the entire responsibility for the situation in which they found to their customers. (Do not secured, respectively) P1 replace this equipment to customers in the brand new equipment for Phase small fee. Or, suggest a very favorable exchange.
My colleagues found themselves in the same situation, some changes to the Phase system, others on the Hasselblad.


Br
Design Freak

Not offended at all: Strangely i think our philosophies are similar.

The back is certainly the linch pin for me... at this point in time.
My objective is not / was not to complain... but simply to find out if the problems as i see them... are seen by others... or unique to me.
The issue here is simply that the H1 / H2 route is a dead-end for Phase users... and it seems to me that the Phase system is patchy if IQ is important.
In that case i can save a lot of money, and plod on with the H1... until things change... which of course they will in time.

I do feel frustration that Phase One have not managed (or tried) to explain the issues, bearing in mind this started back in April for me... but as you say... that is life.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2010, 02:51:57 PM »
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I will also add that I use the P65+ on an H2 with lenses up to 210 and don't have issues with getting sharp images provided my technique is OK.  I use a 2540 Gitzo tripod with the RRS #40 lightweight head.  I also have the RRS 55 head but found I do fine with the more lightweight and easier to carry RRS40.  I do think the leaf shutter lenses have something to do with my 65+  stability here.  Eleanor



I have not had any issues of soft images, at any speed with the H system (besides user error), for the obvious reasons you outline.

It sounds like you have either tested (or know people that have tested) this body and lens combination at a range of speeds below 1/80th and had good results: in which case can i ask what tripod / head combination you / Phase would recommend?

Scott
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design_freak
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2010, 03:57:19 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
Not offended at all: Strangely i think our philosophies are similar.

The back is certainly the linch pin for me... at this point in time.
My objective is not / was not to complain... but simply to find out if the problems as i see them... are seen by others... or unique to me.
The issue here is simply that the H1 / H2 route is a dead-end for Phase users... and it seems to me that the Phase system is patchy if IQ is important.
In that case i can save a lot of money, and plod on with the H1... until things change... which of course they will in time.

I do feel frustration that Phase One have not managed (or tried) to explain the issues, bearing in mind this started back in April for me... but as you say... that is life.


I am very pleased that so you think. As for the Hasselblad, for users of third-party DigitalBack so it had to end. Hasselblad had the choice of going out of business, or peel her own way. And I think we should not blame them for it. Although this decision was controversial. And hit many ordinary users.

Br
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DF

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scott morrish
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2010, 03:58:52 PM »
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Quote from: eleanorbrown
I will also add that I use the P65+ on an H2 with lenses up to 210 and don't have issues with getting sharp images provided my technique is OK.  I use a 2540 Gitzo tripod with the RRS #40 lightweight head.  I also have the RRS 55 head but found I do fine with the more lightweight and easier to carry RRS40.  I do think the leaf shutter lenses have something to do with my 65+  stability here.  Eleanor

Thanks Eleanor. The funny thing is, that i was not even slightly interested in the leaf shutters in the new Phase lenses: I just thought they added weight and cost!
Now however, in the light of my tests to date, i am beginning to think leaf shutters might fix the problems on the DF... so now i am hoping there are more in production asap, especially the 150mm.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2010, 04:17:31 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
If anyone could share that information... i would be very grateful.

Head/Pod combos that work for me:  For MF digital, my favorite is the Arca Cube head on top of a 3 series Gitzo CF pod WITHOUT a center column and mounted directly to the pod's top plate.  Center columns on tripods add a leverage moment and thus add flex to the system.   Other heads I've found to be as rigid or more so than the Cube: Arca B1, B2, RRS BH55, Gitzo 3780.  I'm sure any other quality head in the same size range would be adequate, but I'm going to irritate a lot of folks with this next comment: I've never found any Bogen or Manfrotto head rigid or tight enough for critical high-resolution MF or LF use, and this especially applies to their geared heads. They are probably fine for 35mm DSLR and smaller cameras though. Sorry to all who love theirs, but that's been my experience having had to correct issues for workshop participants that arrive with a Bogen head.  And FWIW, I think Bogen QR plates make the situation even worse.  

That out of the way, there are two more really important issues.  More than once, I've seen an L-bracket not properly fastened to the camera.  Usually this involves a camera that has a reducer bushing from 3/8ths to 1/4 thread.  My point here is if you need to make absolutely certain your L-bracket is TIGHT against the base of your camera, with absolutely zero wiggle or wobble as the slightest amount will show up during slow shutter speeds.  Don't be afraid to gently tap the base as you tighten it.  Final issue is heads that have had aftermarket clamps installed.  This is another fairly common problem for folks that have added an RRS QR or Screw clamp to whatever brand head.  That clamp has to be properly seated and tightened TIGHT to the head. If not, the clamp allows the camera mass to "spring" on it as it fires and this destroys resolution.

My .02,  

 
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2010, 05:43:53 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
Thanks Guy.

I've never fancied the Arca cube... but i'd be interested in any good combinations, that are back-packable and can at least manage to stabilise the DF with the 150mm lens.
I hadn't thought to list what i am using:a Gitzo GT3541XLS (carbon Fibre), with an Arca Swiss Monoball Z.
... is that the same as you?

Scott


Same Gitzo as you Scott and both heads are very strong just a little different design between the Z and P1. The one disadvantage of the P1 is you can't rotate straight down it has no slot for that. I think these are rated at 56 LBs which should hold just about anything we can throw at it in MF. Another good trick is a sand bag on a long lens on top of it for stability but always be aware of wind as in most cases that is the culprit for movement. The DF is a major improvement here over the AFDIII for sure. I can't speak for the Hassy though but same type of setup would certainly work.

Arca makes damn good heads
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2010, 03:03:26 AM »
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[quote name='dougpetersonci' date='Jul 1 2010, 12:10 AM' post='373814']
I'll leave it to the many experienced available light landscape shooters on this board to comment what tripods/heads they've found best and worst.
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson

For landscapes ballheads from the following are typically considered the top;

Markins, Kirks, Arca-Swiss, Really Right Stuff. A ballhead with much clamping power gives solid support. I have used Markins Q10 for years, very solid. It is lightest weight of the brands I mentioned, yet same top of the line quality of product.

In regards to solid tripod, frank most tripods on market tend to approach, well junk. Look for carbon fiber legs and three section legs without telescoping top. The reason is that four section legs have more joints and thus risk being less stable. A telescoping top makes a tripod tad into a monopod on tripod... I have used a Getzo, and before that Manfrotto (4-section) (same company, different lines). When I sold the Manfrotto after 5 years heavy use I disassembled and cleaned it. Tons of dirt and sand came out, yet functioned like day one!

The Arca-Swiss cube? Must be assumed to be solid, but... also heavy. Competitor is Korean, here http://www.tripodballhead.com/2009/02/phot...ed-head_23.html

Hope above is helpful.  

Regards
Anders
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scott morrish
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2010, 03:53:45 AM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
I've never fancied the Arca cube... but i'd be interested in any good combinations, that are back-packable and can at least manage to stabilise the DF with the 150mm lens.
I hadn't thought to list what i am using:a Gitzo GT3541XLS (carbon Fibre), with an Arca Swiss Monoball Z.
Scott

Additionally, in light of further responses to date, i never use a centre-column, there are no attachments or alterations, and having enjoyed 5x4 in the past... i am very aware of the wind: on the day of testing there was no wind, just a fine hot sunny summers day.

It doesn't look like i am obviously using the wrong tripod / head?

I guess my expectations may need re-calibrating (?), but i still think Phase should be the ones identifying which gear will enable their flag-ship products to work well.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2010, 08:51:41 AM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
.

It doesn't look like i am obviously using the wrong tripod / head?

No, but then I've never used the Z head.  So if your L bracket is properly tightened, and your head is solidly tightened to the tripod legs, and your head or head clamp isn't malfunctioning, you've probably got something wrong with your camera...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:52:51 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

scott morrish
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2010, 12:32:31 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
No, but then I've never used the Z head.  So if your L bracket is properly tightened, and your head is solidly tightened to the tripod legs, and your head or head clamp isn't malfunctioning, you've probably got something wrong with your camera...

Well, the issues of tripod and heads may turn out to be less clear-cut than i had remembered or reported here. So just to keep my account in order...
First time around (April), i didn't understand why i was seeing such poor results from the Phase 150mm, so i sent the equipment back, with comparative files for Phase to look at, and I waited to see what conclusions arose. In this instance, i had worked both cameras alternately on my tripod. At this point i was assuming the issue was with the lens, and was happy to accept i might have made a mistake... or been unlucky. There was general agreement that the older H lens was (surprisingly) better, but also a firm belief that the Phase lens was the better lens... and widely respected / loved etc. Mmmm.

Two months later, my dealer kindly drove out to me, to re-do the test with another 150mm lens, but this time, i shot with my H system on my tripod etc... and here is the bit i'd overlooked, he shot the DF on his tripod and head. Now i know his kit looked much like mine, (also Gitzo, also carbon fibre, and i think also an Arca ball head), but as i have said before... i don't pay too much attention to equipment unless it is mine and i need to use it. It turns out that he may well have used his centre column!

That doesn't explain away why the results were so poor first time around, but admittedly, it does warrant revisiting the second test.
Either way, it seems reasonable to assume that whatever is going on, is probably more to do with the body with the longer lens, rather than the just the lens itself, and i continue to wait for a response from Phase One.

Apologies for overlooking the details above.
For those interested, I'll let you know the outcome...
Scott
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2010, 01:55:07 PM »
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Hi,

I had a Manfrotto 055 tripod with a Bogen #3039 head. THe camera I had was the Pentax 67. My 300/4 + 1.4X was never sharp on this combo. I replaced it with a Velbon Sherpa Pro 630CF tripod weighting less than half of the Manfrotto/Bogen combo and started getting decent pictures. Nowdays Iuse a Sherpa 630 with a RRS BH40 and a Gitzo GT3541LS without center column and a RRS BH55. I shoot up too 400/4.5 with 2X extender.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Jack Flesher
Head/Pod combos that work for me:  For MF digital, my favorite is the Arca Cube head on top of a 3 series Gitzo CF pod WITHOUT a center column and mounted directly to the pod's top plate.  Center columns on tripods add a leverage moment and thus add flex to the system.   Other heads I've found to be as rigid or more so than the Cube: Arca B1, B2, RRS BH55, Gitzo 3780.  I'm sure any other quality head in the same size range would be adequate, but I'm going to irritate a lot of folks with this next comment: I've never found any Bogen or Manfrotto head rigid or tight enough for critical high-resolution MF or LF use, and this especially applies to their geared heads. They are probably fine for 35mm DSLR and smaller cameras though. Sorry to all who love theirs, but that's been my experience having had to correct issues for workshop participants that arrive with a Bogen head.  And FWIW, I think Bogen QR plates make the situation even worse.  

That out of the way, there are two more really important issues.  More than once, I've seen an L-bracket not properly fastened to the camera.  Usually this involves a camera that has a reducer bushing from 3/8ths to 1/4 thread.  My point here is if you need to make absolutely certain your L-bracket is TIGHT against the base of your camera, with absolutely zero wiggle or wobble as the slightest amount will show up during slow shutter speeds.  Don't be afraid to gently tap the base as you tighten it.  Final issue is heads that have had aftermarket clamps installed.  This is another fairly common problem for folks that have added an RRS QR or Screw clamp to whatever brand head.  That clamp has to be properly seated and tightened TIGHT to the head. If not, the clamp allows the camera mass to "spring" on it as it fires and this destroys resolution.

My .02,
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2010, 03:55:57 PM »
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Quote from: scott morrish
That doesn't explain away why the results were so poor first time around, but admittedly, it does warrant revisiting the second test.
Either way, it seems reasonable to assume that whatever is going on, is probably more to do with the body with the longer lens, rather than the just the lens itself, and i continue to wait for a response from Phase One.

My take:

The first time you were not aware that using a long focal plane lens used with the highest resolution digital back made in the range where it is most vulnerable to shutter movement required diligent technique and carefully selected tripod/head to get the best possible result. Therefore are any number of small things you could have done that would have caused issues, for instance using 1-2 second self timer rather than using a several second self timer.

The second time the dealer used a tripod/head/technique combination that was not up to the task.

That lens can be used with a properly functioning DF body perfectly well (actually a gross understatement) for low light landscapes with the right support-gear/technique as exhibited by dozens of our customers using it in that exact context, several of whom are on this board.

P.S. I might check with your dealer to see if he has updated the firmware of his DF body - perhaps he has one of the pre-production units or very first units off the line and has never updated the firmware. It's a stretch but something to check.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 03:56:35 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2010, 05:04:11 PM »
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Not sure this has even been mentioned as I have not looked back in this thread but has anyone talked about mirror lockup. If not my technique is using the self timer with lockup and I set it for about four seconds . So mirror up self timer on hit shutter and get your damn body parts away from the unit. LOL
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2010, 05:04:31 PM »
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My bad double post
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2010, 06:34:57 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Not sure this has even been mentioned as I have not looked back in this thread but has anyone talked about mirror lockup. If not my technique is using the self timer with lockup and I set it for about four seconds . So mirror up self timer on hit shutter and get your damn body parts away from the unit. LOL

He did mention mirror up used in the very first post many pages ago. But he also mentioned 2 seconds as the self timer, which I think is a bit fast for this combination of gear/shutter-speed. Several seconds would be better.
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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2010, 07:15:50 PM »
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Totally agree Doug, Even a light press of your finger puts downward pressure and I never tested this but I would say a minimum of 3 seconds. Vibrations last awhile to settle out. I go 4 just to be safe. Scientific no but it's a gut feeling.
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scott morrish
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2010, 04:32:40 AM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
He did mention mirror up used in the very first post many pages ago. But he also mentioned 2 seconds as the self timer, which I think is a bit fast for this combination of gear/shutter-speed. Several seconds would be better.

Thanks for thinking around this.
And yes... i always use mirror up, and i then also use a 2 second delay. This has worked flawlessly on the H system for years. Guess with the DF, i'll have to try longer...

I am still waiting on the details of tripod and head used by my dealer for the re-run test, and out of courtesy to all who have followed this thread, i will post that info here once i have it.

On a more general note, and more out of bewilderment than anything else, (i am certainly not intending to be antagonistic), why don't Phase let there dealers know about these 'issues', and why aren't the dealers then able to fore-warn potential customers [1] that there are issues to be aware of in certain circumstances, and [2] how to work around them?

This equipment is promoted under various promotional sound-bytes like 'ultimate quality' etc. So please, Phase One, and Phase One dealers, let us know how to realise 'ultimate quality' when we test your equipment. You never know... we might go on and buy it.

And do i want to clear another couple of days in my schedule to get the equipment back down to me for a third time, only to have to add a selection of tripods and heads to see which ones allow a very very expensive camera to sit still? Mmmm?
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