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Author Topic: RED EPIC 5K  (Read 8356 times)
BJNY
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« on: April 14, 2010, 08:14:48 AM »
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Sneak peek
http://vimeo.com/10921200
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Guillermo
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 01:26:05 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY


This should/could be the camera of the future.  Especially since after NAB there were no "real" announcements of anything that comes close to the RED.

Maybe the Arri for film makers, but that is still not at the delivery stage yet.

The difficulty with RED is any real information.  I thought medium format was a difficult buy in, in regards to real information and delivery times, but talking to RED is somewhat like calling the CIA and asking "what's happening".

Case in point.  Yesterday called RED to buy a camera.

Me.  Want to buy a camera with the X sensor, so do I come to the store or just order by phone.

RED Guy:  Well don't come by today or tomorrow cause everything's at NAB

Me:  OK so next week?

RED Guy: Well, yes, but we have no viewfinders and it's only the RED One with the old sensor.  You have to go onto a list for the new sensor.

Me:  How long is the list

RED Guy:  Can't say that because you go into stages, you would be stage 4.

Me:  Stage 4, well ok, so how long until Stage 4 gets the new sensor upgrade?

RED Guy:  I can't say that because we have to reward the customers in the previous stages.

Me:  So if I spend $50,000 for a camera I get the old sensor, have to wait for the new one, you can't tell me when and I can't get a viewfinder even with the old one?

RED Guy:  Well, I can understand how this seems frustrating, but maybe you should wait for the Epic.

Me:  OK, so how much is the Epic and when can I buy that one?

RED Guy:  Well we have to first service the loyal customers that optioned for the Epic upgrade and we don't know how many of those they will be or when the Epic will be out.

Me:  OK, so If I buy the old RED One today, then I sign up for the Epic upgrade how long will that take.

RED Guy:  Well, if you buy a new RED One today that's not offered on the Epic upgrade.

So bottom line is buy used, but you have to find someone that has a certain serial number, optioned for all the upgrades, paid Red for the upgrades, you pay them for the old Red Camera, but the camera has to stay in their name to get the upgrades.

BC
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smthopr
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 03:42:01 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
This should/could be the camera of the future.  Especially since after NAB there were no "real" announcements of anything that comes close to the RED.

Maybe the Arri for film makers, but that is still not at the delivery stage yet.


BC

I'm not sure I understand your comment about the Red vs Arri.

I had a pretty good look at the Arri Alexa and Red Epic at the NAB this week.  Both are similar in price with slightly different advantages for each.  Both are clearly motion picture cameras and neither would be my first choice for still photography unless you need to shoot at 15 frames per second or higher.  While the Epic is wonderfully compact, it is quite heavy for it's size.  I think one would be far happier with a good DSLR and a VR/IS/auto focus lens for hand held still photography.

For 1/2 the price of these cameras, a good medium format digital camera will outperform them by far.  And you can buy one today:)
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Bruce Alan Greene
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2010, 05:45:51 AM »
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Seeing RED, I don't understand why the camera brands like Nikon, Canon or Sony (and Leica) etc...are not more interested in develloping the modularity as Ricoh's proposal here:

[attachment=21547:ricoh_gr..._camera2.jpg]
[attachment=21548:Ricoh_GRX.jpg]
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2010, 08:09:20 AM »
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Quote from: smthopr
I'm not sure I understand your comment about the Red vs Arri.

I had a pretty good look at the Arri Alexa and Red Epic at the NAB this week.  Both are similar in price with slightly different advantages for each.  Both are clearly motion picture cameras and neither would be my first choice for still photography unless you need to shoot at 15 frames per second or higher.  While the Epic is wonderfully compact, it is quite heavy for it's size.  I think one would be far happier with a good DSLR and a VR/IS/auto focus lens for hand held still photography.

For 1/2 the price of these cameras, a good medium format digital camera will outperform them by far.  And you can buy one today:)

Alexa is what, around $70k at today's exchange rates, and the list on EPIC is $28k. You could get two EPICs and accessories for the cost of a single Alexa.

An MF back may outperform in some areas, but movie making is not that area. For stills - all depends how fast you shoot. If you don't need to shoot very fast, an MF back will do you fine. That said, as we're moving well into MF territory in the future, things will get interesting.

Epic is a little heavy compared to a DSLR, but a DSLR doesn't run full sensor at 120fps. And it's a lot lighter than a RED One and the Alexa. That said, with the cinema glass on the front, it's the lens that really makes the EPIC heavy.

Graeme
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bcooter
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2010, 02:29:11 PM »
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Quote from: Graeme Nattress
things will get interesting.


Graeme

I have no dog in this hunt, as I'm paid by no camera company.  I care about what I can use to go forward, not stay where we were 5 years ago and obviously there are a lot of genre's represented on this forum, but for commercial and editorial work images are gonna move and become interactive.

Look at the Wrangler EU. site and this will give you some idea where advertising is going

http://eu.wrangler.com/#/collection/chapter1

then this

 http://eu.wrangler.com/#/weareanimals/camp.../campaignslides  combined with this http://eu.wrangler.com/#/weareanimals/films/redcampaignstory


Look at the 5d2 accessories.  God they're falling out of the trees, with lenses, static supports, sound, steady cams, boom steady cams, it's not just a novelty, it's becoming our industry and all of these items if they are available are usually backordered.

I was in Samy's Culver City yesterday and they are redesigning their video department which will be larger than any of the still sections and in the years I've done this biz, I've never seen Samy do anything that doesn't make money.

(of course as an image maker the trick is how do I make money, but looking at this wrangler europe projects those smell like money).

And in my view a camera like the Epic that will go to 800 iso and shoot a 5000 k still frame along with motion, is the future.  Being modular even makes it more enticing.

You can debate image quality, depth of field, what format is what and nobody suggests that a medium format back will not produce a more detailed image during a still session than any motion, camera, but the Epic at 5k will easily go double truck print without interpolation.

My only gripe with RED is you can't walk in and buy one today.

BC


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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2010, 02:37:25 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
My only gripe with RED is you can't walk in and buy one today.

BC

That's our "gripe" too. Unfortunately for us, and you, doing such a motion / stills camera "properly" is no easy task. An Epic brain can process a mind blowing 1.5 GigaPixels a second. 5x as powerful as a RED One and 1/2 the weight. But that's what you need for up to 120fps at 5k sustained.

And there's little point doing less than "best" as the market for that is utterly saturated. Anyway, just busy on a Saturday afternoon working away to remove that "gripe"!

Graeme
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bcooter
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 02:49:39 PM »
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Quote from: Graeme Nattress
That's our "gripe" too. Unfortunately for us, and you, doing such a motion / stills camera "properly" is no easy task. An Epic brain can process a mind blowing 1.5 GigaPixels a second. 5x as powerful as a RED One and 1/2 the weight. But that's what you need for up to 120fps at 5k sustained.

And there's little point doing less than "best" as the market for that is utterly saturated. Anyway, just busy on a Saturday afternoon working away to remove that "gripe"!

Graeme

Graeme,

I don't spend money lightly and after my learning experience of the medium format world, I gotta admit I'm a little gun shy about putting down 30 40 or 50 large on anything that doesn't have air conditioning.

Anyway, I'd just blow you guys off if you'd stop producing tests like this.

http://red.cachefly.net/M-X-REEL.mov

Even knocked down for the web (though still a fairly large clip), it's obvious that RED is on to something and after seeing what came out of NAB I guess everyone else is a few years or a hundred grand behind.

Still, I'm competitive, I want what I want, I want it now and it doesn't have to be an epic I just need the new sensor.

That kind of goes with the territory of being a photographer the competitive and impatient thing.

Anyway.

Heavy cameras don't bother me, low iso and limited cameras do.

BC
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 02:50:02 PM by bcooter » Logged
Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 04:03:27 PM »
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Actually, the EPIC does have air conditioning...

Graeme
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DesW
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 06:01:08 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Graeme,

Still, I'm competitive, I want what I want, I want it now and it doesn't have to be an epic I just need the new sensor.

BC

Yoh, I believe they can put the 5k (Epic) sensor in the current RED.

D
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 06:37:01 PM »
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Quote from: DesW
Yoh, I believe they can put the 5k (Epic) sensor in the current RED.

D

Yes, we're in the process of upgrading existing RED One's to the new sensor, and it's rather nice, but as a camera is more than a sensor, it's just a taste of what the EPIC has to offer. Nice taste though.

Graeme
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pschefz
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 02:58:14 PM »
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would love to see a raw still file from that shoot.....like the guy in the garage welding or something.....this is probably above 800? a full size tiff without any tricks would be nice as well.....
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2010, 03:32:37 PM »
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Quote from: pschefz
would love to see a raw still file from that shoot.....like the guy in the garage welding or something.....this is probably above 800? a full size tiff without any tricks would be nice as well.....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42130 has links to some R3D files from the early M-X demo footage. Please remember they don't fully represent the quality of the shipping camera as there were still some calibrations issues with the sensor at the early time that they were shot. You can use the free REDCINE-X software to open the files and work with them.

Graeme
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MattLaver
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 11:44:52 PM »
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Quote from: Graeme Nattress
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42130 has links to some R3D files from the early M-X demo footage. Please remember they don't fully represent the quality of the shipping camera as there were still some calibrations issues with the sensor at the early time that they were shot. You can use the free REDCINE-X software to open the files and work with them.

Graeme


Hi Graeme,


I may not be following this exactly. Was this shot with an Epic using the M-X sensor or a One with M-X upgrade?

If it's the Epic, are these files you linked to 'Still' Raw R3D files shot in Stills mode with stills-appropriate settings, like shutter speeds, or are they R3D Raw frames taken from Movie mode captures using movie-appropriate settings, like slower shutter speeds?

I ask because I, and I'm sure a lot of people here, are keen to see what the Epic/Scarlet can do in Stills mode under stills-specific conditions.


Thanks

Matt
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2010, 08:08:07 AM »
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The R3D files I pointed to were shot with an early M-X sensor in a RED One body. That is the same sensor that goes into EPIC, but EPIC can get a lot more out of that sensor - full 5k at up to 120fps, for instance, whereas RED One hardware goes up to 4.5k wide at 30fps.

The R3D files are movie files running at 24pfs, the stills being extracted from them, and the camera running with a 1/48th second shutter as is typical for motion work.

We've not really talked much about the stills functionality, other than to say it has such functionality. Once we're talking about stills publicly, I'll be around to answer more questions on that side of things.

Graeme
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2010, 05:51:38 PM »
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Many thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm excited to hear more regarding the stills capabilities as you are able to discuss it, and of course your developments in the moving arena, as this industry changes.

Cheers

Matt

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 12:33:30 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
I don't spend money lightly and after my learning experience of the medium format world, I gotta admit I'm a little gun shy about putting down 30 40 or 50 large on anything that doesn't have air conditioning.

Ok so you (and I) have been through the MF wheel over the last 5 years

The bleeding edge

Watching Red right now it is so similar

MF went from dodgy, unreliable to a functioning system in that time

(a dodgy system that could match film when working unlike any consumer offerings of the time)

By the time MF arrived (?) as solid and reliable canon and nikon were there too with 'good enough' offerings

No a D3x is not as good as a P65 but it is good enough

What are the lessons

I dunno

My first digitals (3 X nikon D1) were bought on a loan that cost less than my average film and processing budget

My first MF got me a magazine client who has employed me for the last 8 years

My D1 s are literally used as an ornament now my blad is only used very rarlely for flash synch

Stupid waste of cash ? no - they worked for my business at the time and Im still afloat

BC I think you need to look at the kit now

Say a used R1, and buy it if you think the month cost will be paid back, assume in three years it will be comical valuless junk like a 16mp square crop sensor digiback

or rent

or wait

or shoot 5d and wait

or whatever

My big lesson is that stills wise CaNikon have become 'good enough'

That took 5 years, but that was in the 2000s, and 5 years in the 2000s is probably 2 years in the 2010s

S
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 12:40:19 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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