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Author Topic: Photoshop on Win or OSX  (Read 36164 times)
nanjeca
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« on: April 16, 2010, 07:14:16 AM »
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I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 08:24:16 AM »
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Quote from: nanjeca
I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.
I've done this exercise before.

When you consider only the hardware, a power-packed Windows box is essentially the same as a Mac Pro. Multiple processors with multiple cores, fast bus speeds, multiple internal hard drives, and other features are available on both platforms. If you configure a machine on the Apple Store and Dell Store you'll see the prices are almost equal.

The applications from Adobe all function the same on both platforms (I think Adobe called it "parity" back when Photoshop's functionality and features were finally equal on both platforms). You take a series of good photos and process them through either platform and the photos will still look good. Now that Adobe is porting their Mac programs to 64-bit, there is no inherent advantage to either platform. And, I for one, believe 64-bit functionality is moot when working with 100MB-500MB image files (I could've used it with 1GB-2GB scans from 8x10 film, though).

This means it boils down to the OS. And this is where people get opinionated because we get so accustomed to a particular OS and its workflow.

Unfortunately, the only way you'll learn the Mac OS is to buy a machine and spend time using it to see if you are more productive. You can't drive it around the block to know if you'll like it, you'll need to use it for several months before you can make an informed decision. I know a lot of Windows users who have tried and cannot stand the Mac OS. I also know a lot of Windows users who have tried the Mac OS, and would rather die than switch back to Windows.

Good luck.
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 08:24:21 AM »
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Since the 64bit Photoshop CS5 is now available for both Mac and PC, one advantage of the Mac version is a 16bit print output option.
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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 09:50:40 AM »
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Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike

You don't want to discuss PC versus Mac but you want to discuss the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other. Hmmm, that's going to be tough!

Bottom line, both platforms are fast and stable for CS5 and LR. If you want to spend many hundreds of dollars extra for no practical advantage, get the Mac.
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Peter
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bjanes
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 11:32:42 AM »
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Quote from: Chris_Brown
When you consider only the hardware, a power-packed Windows box is essentially the same as a Mac Pro. Multiple processors with multiple cores, fast bus speeds, multiple internal hard drives, and other features are available on both platforms. If you configure a machine on the Apple Store and Dell Store you'll see the prices are almost equal.
Good luck.
Of course, the Mac and Dell both are grossly overpriced. They charge a premium for disc space and memory. The best value can be obtained by building your own machine. This link is dated, but gives an idea of the cost differentials.

Bill
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graeme
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 11:53:16 AM »
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'Time Machine' can be very useful. Has Windows 7 got an equivalent?

Graeme
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 12:12:31 PM »
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Quote from: bjanes
Of course, the Mac and Dell both are grossly overpriced. They charge a premium for disc space and memory. The best value can be obtained by building your own machine. This link is dated, but gives an idea of the cost differentials.

Bill

Bill, OK - I went to that link, and sure, this is well known, people who know what they are doing can build their own computer for MUCH less money than buying a Dell of a Mac, and of course as you read that piece you see that Mr. Ou indeed knows his stuff and monitors the component market in real-time. BUT: first you really need to know what you are doing: what pieces to select, how to put them together, or how to chose who to put them together and how to monitor whether they've done a good job or not; then there is the whole question of support and guarantees - you buy parts from all over the place with different warranty conditions, assemble them yourself or subcontract the assembly and you have a computer. If it doesn't work properly or stops working properly, who do you go to for a diagnosis, how much do you pay and who is responsible? Really, this is an option for computer techno-geeks, not for most of us who just want a robust and reliable computer for making our photographs.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 12:14:23 PM »
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Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

Mike
The software will run the same on either machine so it all comes down to a question of price.  Comparably equipped PCs are cheaper than a Mac Pro probably by $1000.  this means more money to spend on paper, lenses, etc.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 12:53:35 PM »
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Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
The software will run the same on either machine so it all comes down to a question of price.  Comparably equipped PCs are cheaper than a Mac Pro probably by $1000.  this means more money to spend on paper, lenses, etc.

Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 02:39:33 PM by Mark D Segal » Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 02:19:14 PM »
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Mike:  I also fail to see how any response to your questions would not be in the PC vs: MAC realm....

I agree with Mark that at the high end, pricing between MAC and other offerings essentially disappear.  My concern is the tendancy to look toward Dell as a high end computer supplier..... IMO Dell's purchase and relationship with Alienware has effectively turned their offerings into nothing less than unstable, overclocked junk.  

Dell's technical decisions are now clearly being made by marketing "suits".  A typical Dell machine with Windows 7 ships with:

A "dock" utility (are you KIDDING ME???)
The Dell local backup tool SCREAMS at the user to purchase an upgrade.  It also does not function with the included Roxio disk burning utility.  The Windows 7 backup utility is much better and easier to use.....

If you are looking to the high end, I'd recommend either

A Mac Pro - runs either OS X or Win 7 beautifully
An Intel Chassis / Workstation mainboard from an Intel Channel Partner (i'm one)

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 02:49:54 PM »
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Quote from: Joh.Murray
Mike:  I also fail to see how any response to your questions would not be in the PC vs: MAC realm....

I agree with Mark that at the high end, pricing between MAC and other offerings essentially disappear.  My concern is the tendancy to look toward Dell as a high end computer supplier..... IMO Dell's purchase and relationship with Alienware has effectively turned their offerings into nothing less than unstable, overclocked junk.  

Dell's technical decisions are now clearly being made by marketing "suits".  A typical Dell machine with Windows 7 ships with:

A "dock" utility (are you KIDDING ME???)
The Dell local backup tool SCREAMS at the user to purchase an upgrade.  It also does not function with the included Roxio disk burning utility.  The Windows 7 backup utility is much better and easier to use.....

If you are looking to the high end, I'd recommend either

A Mac Pro - runs either OS X or Win 7 beautifully
An Intel Chassis / Workstation mainboard from an Intel Channel Partner (i'm one)

John, not that I'm planning to buy one - in fact I'm planning a move over to Mac, but does your commentary about a "typical Dell machine" also apply to their Precision Workstation line?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 02:56:16 PM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
If you want to spend many hundreds of dollars extra for no practical advantage, get the Mac.
I'm amazed this myth still exists.
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 04:22:44 PM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
John, not that I'm planning to buy one - in fact I'm planning a move over to Mac, but does your commentary about a "typical Dell machine" also apply to their Precision Workstation line?

I just finished configuring a fully loaded Dell T5500 as a small departmental database server (oracle), a mess of a machine.  My experiences with recent HP's haven't been much better.

Intel always seems to be on top of latest O/S and driver bugfixes.....
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PeterAit
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 07:09:12 PM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.

I am astounded by your Dell price. I have an 8 core i7 Dell with 12 gigs of ram, a raid-0 boot drive, and a high-end video card and the whole thing cost about $2200. What on earth are you including, a solid gold case <g>?
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Peter
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 08:12:38 PM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
Alan, as this news was - well - news to me (because I thought prices were pretty convergent between the two systems at the high-end) - I decided to go back to first principles on both the Apple and Dell websites (talking Canada here, but the prices are consistent with US prices just a few percent higher because this is Canada) and customize their flagship models as closely as the choices would allow. The Dell came out over 300 dollars more expensive than the Apple, and it was four core rather than 8 core and 6 gigs of RAM rather than 8. Specifically, $5746 for Dell, $5431 for the MacPro. I can email you PDF copies of the detailed spec sheets if you would like to see in greater detail what I did.
Mark, I just got a new PC in February (delayed delivery by one week because of the mid-Atlantic blizzard) from CyberPC in Los Angeles) and paid $1300.  Intel I7-860; 8 GB RAM; ATI video card with 1 GB memory on the card; 1.5 TB SATA hard drive.  No monitor is included in the price as I already have a NEC.  I don't do enough work to set up a RAID system and two conventional external HDs (already owned) provide my back capability.  I'm running both LR and PS in 64 bit mode and things go pretty darn fast.  Maybe you have added some features that I don't need at this point in time.  The only difference that I can see from a workflow perspective is 16 bit printing with a Mac but I'm unsure whether that makes any qualitative difference.  In addition, I only do photography and no other graphical arts applications so maybe my machine is top line for just that application.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2010, 08:53:04 PM »
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Quote from: PeterAit
I am astounded by your Dell price. I have an 8 core i7 Dell with 12 gigs of ram, a raid-0 boot drive, and a high-end video card and the whole thing cost about $2200. What on earth are you including, a solid gold case <g>?

There are Dells and Dells. This is a top-of-the-line workstation with 4 internal hard drives. How much better it is than your 2200 construct I would have no idea. What line of system is yours? Here's the link to what I was building: DellT7500 basic All you need is a few departures from the base specs to conform it as closely as possible with a MacPro and the price shoots up there. If you want the full spec sheet send me an email address and I'll provide it. You can compare what I developed with what you have and you will find the factors causing the price spread. BTW, I'm NOT buying it!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2010, 08:55:56 PM »
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Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
Mark, I just got a new PC in February (delayed delivery by one week because of the mid-Atlantic blizzard) from CyberPC in Los Angeles) and paid $1300.  Intel I7-860; 8 GB RAM; ATI video card with 1 GB memory on the card; 1.5 TB SATA hard drive.  No monitor is included in the price as I already have a NEC.  I don't do enough work to set up a RAID system and two conventional external HDs (already owned) provide my back capability.  I'm running both LR and PS in 64 bit mode and things go pretty darn fast.  Maybe you have added some features that I don't need at this point in time.  The only difference that I can see from a workflow perspective is 16 bit printing with a Mac but I'm unsure whether that makes any qualitative difference.  In addition, I only do photography and no other graphical arts applications so maybe my machine is top line for just that application.

Sounds like a great deal, but I should send you the specs on the one I constructed so you can determine where the price differentials occur and whether or not they seem acceptable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 09:22:43 PM »
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Mark's Config is for a Dual Xeon platform.  This would be a proper comparison to Apple's Mac Pro.

I personally think it would be very cool to see Apple offer an I7 tower, but currently the only way to get that is an iMac.

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2010, 10:03:16 PM »
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Quote from: Joh.Murray
Mark's Config is for a Dual Xeon platform.  This would be a proper comparison to Apple's Mac Pro.

I personally think it would be very cool to see Apple offer an I7 tower, but currently the only way to get that is an iMac.

John - yes exactly - that's what I had in mind when I did the exercise - to get as comparable as the offerings allow.

Now the question this raises of course - triggered by Alan's comment and relevant to the OP's initial question - how much computer does one really need to get top-flight performance out of Lightroom or Photoshop? Is a 5000 dollar computer total overkill, in the sense that a 2200 dollar outfit would be just as fast and just as stable and just as robust? I ask - I honestly don't know - I think it's an important question. One can always take flight in safety by buying the absolute best because by definition it can't get any better, but how useful? You know what I mean - it conjures up the analogy of driving a Porsche in a 30 MPH speed zone.

It is interesting that Apple has the i7 chip in the iMac, which is a somewhat limited computer (i.e. very limited scalability and has experienced some technical glitches) but not in the MacPro. I'm wondering why. Do they think a Nehalem solution is better for the purposes of the MacPro, or it is just a matter of time before it too goes i7? Any thoughts on the merits of Nehalem versus i7?

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2010, 12:23:37 AM »
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Quote from: nanjeca
I do NOT want to re-ignite the no-win discussion of pc vs mac.

Now that CS5 is announced, yet again as I preprare to upgrade from CS4, I ask if I should convert fromWin7 64-bit on a PC to MAC Pro running OSX. I currently run a WIN 7 64-bit PC with 8 GB Ram. I would consider buying a MAC PRO with 8 GB RAM. The machine(s) are used strictly for image processing, no general office work or general internet surfing except as relates to supporting my software, etc.

I don't want to discuss PC vs MaC but I would like to understand the limits, advantages/disadvantages of one platform vs the other as specifically relates to CS4/CS5 and/or Lightroom 2/3.

any comments or help??

Mike

Mike,

what do you expect to gain from changing OS/platform? I have and use both, but we are talking little differences between them. No one can tell on my images, that they have been prepared on a Mac or a PC. My Photography doesn't improve because I use one or the other. The same can be said when I shoot with the Nikon D3 and my Canon 1D mkIII.

Good luck - It would be interesting to know what the gain is going from one to the other, its very subjective but it makes for fun reading

Henrik

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