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Author Topic: Calling All Digital Techs  (Read 20012 times)
gwhitf
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« on: April 22, 2010, 08:10:46 PM »
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Are there any Digital Techs reading this board? I'm just curious if there is anyone that has direct experience with Tethering a high-volume people/lifestyle job here. Ideally, someone with knowledge and experience with CaptureOne 5, compared to Phocus 2.

If you were the Tech, and your client would shoot either camera, (say, Hasselblad H4D_40), or a Phase back, (say, P65+), which software would you rather use, if the shoot was relatively high volume, in studio, capturing only, not processing final TIFFs. A possible third option would be a Nikon D3X using either CaptureOne, or one of those Nikon software solutions.

Do you have thoughts on which software is more stable for capturing? Which one might get bogged down? Let's say that your machine is not a tower, but a MacBook Pro 17 with lots of RAM and a 7200 internal drive; would that change your opinion?

Your task would simply be to capture the files, maybe overlay a tad of contrast/color adjustment, and be able to show fast Previews as the job was being shot.

If the choice was software alone, which one would you rather Tech all day long? Thanks.
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2010, 10:09:10 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Are there any Digital Techs reading this board? I'm just curious if there is anyone that has direct experience with Tethering a high-volume people/lifestyle job here. Ideally, someone with knowledge and experience with CaptureOne 5, compared to Phocus 2.

If you were the Tech, and your client would shoot either camera, (say, Hasselblad H4D_40), or a Phase back, (say, P65+), which software would you rather use, if the shoot was relatively high volume, in studio, capturing only, not processing final TIFFs. A possible third option would be a Nikon D3X using either CaptureOne, or one of those Nikon software solutions.

Do you have thoughts on which software is more stable for capturing? Which one might get bogged down? Let's say that your machine is not a tower, but a MacBook Pro 17 with lots of RAM and a 7200 internal drive; would that change your opinion?

Your task would simply be to capture the files, maybe overlay a tad of contrast/color adjustment, and be able to show fast Previews as the job was being shot.

If the choice was software alone, which one would you rather Tech all day long? Thanks.

I'm not sure you should be comparing those two. The h4d-40 has microlenses and is more suitable for handheld higher iso. Either system is better with its own software.
For your purposes the simplicity of the H4D-40 would be the better choice for the work you are doing, in my opinion. I dont think the increase in cost would be worth it for the p65+ for your project.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 10:17:13 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
I'm not sure you should be comparing those two.

OK, to level the playing field, let's say Phase One P40+. Although I'm not that concerned about the back, with this question. I'm more concerned with an overall feeling about how the software runs. But just for conversation, let's say the files are about the same size, in terms of the flow of data. One crop-chip versus another crop-chip. (Versus a D3X).
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yaya
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 01:01:19 AM »
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Well G you know what my answer would be...
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Dustbak
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 01:24:18 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
Well G you know what my answer would be...


Though my experience with Leaf is from a while back but I would not discount them either. Nothing has surpassed LC8 or LC11 (LC11 only after lots and lots of trouble with LC10) sofar in stability and speed. But.... my experience with C1 is basically not existing. It would be phenomenal if it could surpass Leaf in this area.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 04:40:36 AM »
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I am not an experienced high-volume tech, but if speed,  not cost, is the main criteria, you could consider a 30Mpx MF back (in addition to a high-res back). Without the AA you get more real-world res/Mpx with MF, so you need to handle fewer MPx to get enough res.

Hasselblad/phocus is a great combination, but I think it is optimized for quality rather than speed.
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
gwhitf
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2010, 05:59:40 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
Well G you know what my answer would be...

Yair,

I understand what you're saying, but somehow since Leaf was purchased by Phase, it seems like they've just lost their identity a bit. Not sure why I feel that way. Kinda like when you were in high school, and there'd be some hot cheerleader girl, and she got all the attention, and you heard that she had a little sister, but the little sister always stayed at home and you never heard much from her. Or maybe better analogy, it's kinda like when an NFL team has one star quarterback, but they keep this other (good) quarterback on the team, in case the main guy gets arrested (for gun possession, dogfighting or rape), but the backup guy never gets much playing time, so he just kinda fades into the woodwork.

For me, it makes it hard to get excited about investing in the backup quarterback, because you always feel like he could be traded to another team any day now, without any notice.

In these weird economic times, it makes you want to stick with a proven winner. (Or, at least the one with biggest name recognition, in case you want to sell it and not take a bath).

Maybe Leaf needs to step out a bit, and make sure they have a more unique identity in the marketplace?
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2010, 06:04:45 AM »
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P40+ tethered full res. preview speed about two seconds and pretty much unlimited shooting. I think maybe a 60 shot buffer. I have not gone that long in time without a break in the action and frankly I would think almost anyone no matter what the shoot is going to stop for a AD, Stylist, Hair or makeup person at some point during that coarse. Also the P40+ is pretty fast shooting 1.2 seconds I believe. Or maybe better said It's faster than the strobes will pretty much recycle and that I do a lot. This is in C1 . I suggest a demo under your type of shooting though and other gear like lighting to see if it fits in your flow. Also I have actually turned camera off when tethered along with back during a break period let's say and able to just turn both back on and it maintains it's connection. This part i really liked since it saved the camera battery and also cooled things down for the back which obviously will get warm under constant shooting. I would think Yair may agree the same will be for the Leaf in the same blood line. They do use the same sensor as well as Mamiya but obviously Yair would know this better than me on the Leaf side of the house. Frankly I am not sure there is anything better than color editor with tethered work and fashion since you can fine tune that first shot to exactly the style you are after and shoot every frame right to that look. Which I find a very valuable tool. But I have not run into any serious issues tethered with the P40+ . I have not tried to pull the plug either, I have not lost that connection. BTW this is shooting to a 15 inch MBP . I'm pretty happy with this setup and it's even faster if you jump into sensor plus but again you are now down to 10 mpx cam which for a lot of jobs for me i do use a lot but I hear you can pretty much go forever in sensor plus mode. Also on the 6 micron sensors you will see less moire and that I have tested over the 6.8 micron P30+. YMMV

I would seriously though get a demo and run it through the mill and see if it fits your style. I don't know Phocus so i will not comment on how that system works
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 06:08:05 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2010, 06:17:49 AM »
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BTW a bit of good news. Well first I dropped my core duo and destroyed it in a fall in Dallas at the airport which was a 2.93 15 8gb of Ram and two Cruicial SSD drives. Okay that was the bad news but the good news for everyone is the new MBP 15 Core I7  units with exactly the same ram and hard drives . I moved them over to the new box I picked up a 30 percent increase in processing speed in C1 which is unheard of. So end of day the new core I7 processors in all the typical programs have gone up in speed. Not sure about Phocus but C1 was the biggest improvement as noted by Lloyd Chambers which here are his results of some typical programs. Phocus is not in this test but my bet it will get some faster times
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 06:18:45 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

yaya
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2010, 07:07:02 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Yair,

I understand what you're saying, but somehow since Leaf was purchased by Phase, it seems like they've just lost their identity a bit. Not sure why I feel that way. Kinda like when you were in high school, and there'd be some hot cheerleader girl, and she got all the attention, and you heard that she had a little sister, but the little sister always stayed at home and you never heard much from her. Or maybe better analogy, it's kinda like when an NFL team has one star quarterback, but they keep this other (good) quarterback on the team, in case the main guy gets arrested (for gun possession, dogfighting or rape), but the backup guy never gets much playing time, so he just kinda fades into the woodwork.

For me, it makes it hard to get excited about investing in the backup quarterback, because you always feel like he could be traded to another team any day now, without any notice.

In these weird economic times, it makes you want to stick with a proven winner. (Or, at least the one with biggest name recognition, in case you want to sell it and not take a bath).

Maybe Leaf needs to step out a bit, and make sure they have a more unique identity in the marketplace?

Where I come from we did not have cheerleaders and I was never into basketball....maybe that's the problem?

But seriously, an Aptus-II 8 tethered to LC 11.3.1 will trounce anything MF in terms of capture rate, preview speed and simplicity i.e. no fancy tools or sliders, just large, colour managed previews and quick back-to-HD transfer...

Yair
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tmx3
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2010, 07:17:38 AM »
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While I haven't got experience of every hardware/software configuration you mention I do operate both programes, although Phocus to a lesser extent. What i like about the current version of Capture one is that you can select whether the software preview automatically moves to the next image when someone is shooting continually. This gives me time to check focus etc without being interupted by the next image coming in. Phocus also seems to have annoying lag where the preview renders in two stages- you think you are looking at the rendered preview, then it updates again. I personally find c1 more intuitive, but maybe thats because its the sofware I learnt on. In terms of stability i'd say C15 and Phocus are more or less the same, but speed in phocus seems to be very depenent on what hardware you have and related to this I've heard v mixed things about its speed. It works pretty well on my 15 macbookpro 4gb ram with the standard video card in conjunction with the h3d 39, although sometimes the tools can be slightly unresponsive.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2010, 07:28:10 AM »
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Quote from: tmx3
What i like about the current version of Capture one is that you can select whether the software preview automatically moves to the next image when someone is shooting continually. This gives me time to check focus etc without being interupted by the next image coming in.

Please note this is also available on Phocus.
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David Grover
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2010, 07:31:57 AM »
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I know tethered there are some tricks in C1 where you can setup different windows like focus tools on attached monitors. So a AD can see a full size image on another screen and have focus screens on any and as many monitors you have attached. Very cool features like this that you can work with when tethered.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 07:33:02 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Please note this is also available on Phocus.


That is a nice feature for sure. Glad to see that on Hassy as well
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gwhitf
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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2010, 07:47:55 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
But seriously, an Aptus-II 8 tethered to LC 11.3.1 will trounce anything MF in terms of capture rate, preview speed and simplicity i.e. no fancy tools or sliders, just large, colour managed previews and quick back-to-HD transfer...

Again, it amazes me that you guys don't sit down one day and do a down-and-dirty YouTube video showing these things. You guys are around your own product every single day -- it's like the back of your hand to you; you're like a fish in water. But imagine a potential customer with zero experience using Leaf Capture -- it's impossible to even get your head around it. (Especially with all the historical bad press of LC8 and LC10). If you've truly jumped a hurdle, you'd think you'd be eager to show the world.

How many potential customers are going to actually drive several hours potentially, to their nearest dealer? But they might if they had just the most basic teaser, to get them interested. I'm sick of suggesting this YouTube thing to you all, but honestly, you are your own worst enemies. Avoid the hypey fake manufacturer videos, and simply sit down, as a pro, and show another pro how the stuff works, in action, on a real job. Whatever. Good luck.

I am sitting here, doing the math of all the lost sales that you missed out on, because a customer was too afraid to blow big money on a system with problems; thus, they go to B&H site, order a d3x or a 1ds3 or a 5d2, and they get on with their life. But if they really wanted MF, how sad that all they got was some PR video from some lab coat guy. I promise I'm not being a dick, but it is frustrating. In this economy, you've got to EARN business.

PS. Go and buy one of Reichmann's videos of Lightroom; the ones with Schewe. There's nothing fancy about them, but it's real people talking in real language about real stuff; the way the human mind works. Follow that lead. You sit there, and you watch, (maybe too long, but sometimes that's what it takes for the light bulb to go off, above your head). How hard could this be? Of course it would take time and money, but if you factor in how many miles most of your potential customers are away from you, it starts to make sense.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 03:46:04 PM by gwhitf » Logged
tmx3
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2010, 08:55:23 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Please note this is also available on Phocus.


Ah, yes this feature is on v2.0.1, I stand corrected. Good to know.
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2010, 09:49:59 AM »
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Quote from: yaya
Where I come from we did not have cheerleaders and I was never into basketball....maybe that's the problem?

But seriously, an Aptus-II 8 tethered to LC 11.3.1 will trounce anything MF in terms of capture rate, preview speed and simplicity i.e. no fancy tools or sliders, just large, colour managed previews and quick back-to-HD transfer...

Yair

Hi gwhitf,

I second that for the Aptus75S. We do exactly what you plan to shoot, lots of exposures and very fast one after the other. Never had any issues or had to get help from outside. I would recommend a proper hardware setup though. Don´t forget you create a lot of data.

Cheers, Ulf
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bcooter
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2010, 10:27:27 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Are there any Digital Techs reading this board?
I think what your asking for is a 5 day test of the three remaining brands.

Kind of like the Zaguto shootout thing, but something more comprehensive than just comparing highlight quality, or color, but a real world start to finish example of what it takes to buy something take it out of the box and start working from pre production, to shoot to post production and finish out.

First buy a brand new macbookpro and load Phocus, C-1 and Leaf Capture. Hook up a 23" monitor a 30' firewire cord and start the day with the first assistant learning the nuances of each software.

Then show the 10 chargers in the floor doing 5 sets of batteries to get through the day.

Next the shoot.  Shoot in studio, fast paced with clients asking for stuff like, go back to that last session and let me see the model's face, or can we quickly edit and process out about 11 files while the photographer is still shooting to e-amail our vp of marketing?

Then step on the firewire cord or connector and have to go to cards instead of tethered while it's replaced.    Insert those cf card images into the tethered shoot so it's one continuous browser of images.

Next go to window light with an hmi fill and high iso for that quick shot you see between sessions.

That night, process out all the raws to jpegs for web galleries.

Then day 2, shoot outside in soaring heat, I'd suggest Jamaica where the humidity will blow out the electronics of a 767.   Shoot tethered, all to a macbook, shoot non tethered, shoot fast, shoot slow, shoot synced with flash, without flash and shoot a lot, change batteries and time how long it takes to software to restart and the camera to connect.

Once again go in at night, rename, rate, edit and process out the raws for jpegs to put on the web.

Third scenario is the retouching process.  First let the client select background A, subject 2, to fit into overall image 3, and let the retoucher go to work on the files.   Is there pattern moire, is there matching color, does the image process in CS4 (cause that's what all retouchers use), well that or CS3.

Then have that round table discussion with first assistant (who has now become the de-facto digital tech), photographer, clients and retouchers.

The rules should be simple.  No agendas, not reps, no dealers, no camera makers.   Once again the tech should be the good first assistant that knows there way around digital (because from what I can see that's the new process where everyone multi tasks).

And just to keep everything honest, throw in a Canon and/or Nikon and tether it to either C-1, lightroom 3, or the Maker's software.

After everyone talks about the shoot, the image quality, what is/isn't in focus, what had unfixable pattern moire, what didn't,  then end the video with the clients.  What image from what camera did they pick.  Which software did they like the previews on, which software did they notice was fast or slow, or crashed or ran solid and what was the final result.  Show finished 13x19 retouched proofs from each camera and let the clients rate them.

This type of test will go a long way to answering most of your questions, but will be hard to pull off cause who wants to pay for it?

Once again do the tests with no agendas, no bias, nothing but a mindset of to get each shot right, get it pretty, get it out the door.

But I would rename your request "are there any good first assistants on this board", because that's the way the industry is going.  It's all about multitasking.

BC
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 10:29:02 AM by bcooter » Logged
stewarthemley
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2010, 10:31:51 AM »
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Phocus is now a highly competent program but you need to know about one REALLY ANNOYING thing: previews are not sharp unless you zoom in. Goodness knows why. Every raw converter I know about gives sharp previews so WTF can't Phocus? That would slow you to almost a standstill if you want to shoot fast and tethered. Hass are bringing in some great new features but this lack of a basic requirement is bewildering.
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bcooter
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 10:52:39 AM »
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or to keep it simple, just send this link to every dealer.

Ask them to answer every question.

http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684672074546734

That'll wrap it up.

BC
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