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Author Topic: Calling All Digital Techs  (Read 19713 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2010, 11:55:13 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
USB and Macs never really got along oh so well in the first place.


Have you tethered thousands of captures with a updated mac, a canon and eos utility?  Because I don't find USB to be anything other than stable and fast.  Since Apple seems to be constantly limiting the amount of firewire ports on their computers, it seems that the days of firewire and apple are numbered, or at least limited.

Anyway;

Tethering can always be an issue.

I tethered Leaf to V-8.  We learned it back to front (which was not easy) and it was bullet proof, though clunky, then V-10 came out with a lot of issues.

I moved to Phase solely to use C1 version 3 and except for the 400 images in a folder thing. no real issues ever with a p30, p30+, p21+ shooting many thousands of frames many pressured projects.

Once again we learned c-1 v3 front to back and I found it so reliable that nobody really had to man a tech station unless you needed to rename or review images with the client on the fly.

I routinely ran V3 to 24" I-macs connected to a 23" mac monitor.  The client's saw the second monitor, the tech (if we used one) and I saw the I-mac.

Then V4 and well I lost interest with version 4 and moved to the 1ds3 and eos utility, running bridge in the background.

The only issue with usb and the macs was the usb was slow.  Mac fixed that with a 10.5.8 update and I find eos utility very solid and secure and fast.  

Recently we moved to V5.1.1 with the p30+ and the P21+ and it's back to never really knowing what's going to happen.  

Since we're prepping for an upcoming project, yesterday we went through everything, on both capture machines, a new 2.8 ghz mackbook pro running 10.5.8. and our previous 2.5 ghz macbook pro running 10.5.8.

We took all the Contax bodies, lenses, finders, pocket wizards, everything that has an electrical connection and polished the contacts like a jewel thief prepping the Hope diamond for a quick sale.

This time got good results with the p21+, running either small IQ or Large IQ (almost identical speed), spotty results with the p30+.   10' cord, 30' cord we get the same results and yes we have both backs set to battery power and yes all batteries, camera and back are fully charged.

Just to make sure it was not the cords, the backs, the batteries, etc. we pulled out the two white 24" Imacs we  use to use with v3.78 and the backs ran flawlessly with version 3.  As good as eos utility and the 1ds3's which for capturing I find to be the gold standard.

Anyway, with the p21+ and version 5.1.1 we now have stable results, EXCEPT that it fires so fast that we are constantly 8 frames ahead of the previews and it's not like the previews keep popping up 8 frames back, they just sit there on one preview while the thumbnails load.

Stop shooting and the large preview finally goes to the last frame, but the 8 to 10 previous ones are bypassed, so you have to stop and scroll through them for client review.    The p21+ shoots so fast, with 5.1.1 after the first frame, the client sees nothing until you stop and then it goes to the last frame.  

Talk about a perplexed A.D.  

The thing I don't get is this.  We can go project to project, fly in late from LA to NY, set up, pre light, plug in a Canon to the powerbook and without touching, cleaning, massaging a thing it always works.  

With the Phase backs and the contax, we have to take everything apart, clean all the contacts, tape in all the connectors, make sure the cables never get a twist pray that nothing glitches, UNLESS we decide to run version 3 on the Imacs then we're back to solid.

So my view is yes, we do need a simplified version for tethering.  Actually we had that with c1 version 3, have that with EOS utility, but V4/5 is a much more complicated and different process.

Though I am loathe to purchase any new expensive cameras, I would love to see how Phocus and the HD40 performs in the scenarios that I work.

Not just IMO, just in my everyday use.

BC


P.S.  One fashion A.D. I worked with knew C-1 v.3 as well if not better than any tech we've employed.  She could sit down in front of the machine during a change of sessions, or a break,  rename, organize, even check focus and have her selects moved to a folder so by the end of the day she had no editing to do.  With V4/5 she just shakes her head, especially for renaming.  For her we have moved back to the Imacs and V3, or shoot with the Canons and let her edit in bridge.



EDIT;  On the top menu in the c1 browser their is a camera setting for viewing and you must drag down the menu for immediate preview.  Then you get fast previews.

I stand corrected on this point.  It's still a very heavy program.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 02:16:24 PM by bcooter » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2010, 12:01:26 PM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
I totally agree with this part. I would welcome an application that solely tethers as well.

Do you guys also want this application to show you 100% preview for focus check?

Do you want it to run on a 30" Eizo? Do you want the previews to look sharp and nice on that 30"

Do you want to adjust contrast? Saturation? WB?
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bcooter
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« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2010, 12:11:10 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
Do you guys also want this application to show you 100% preview for focus check?

Do you want it to run on a 30" Eizo? Do you want the previews to look sharp and nice on that 30"

Do you want to adjust contrast? Saturation? WB?


What I want is to have stable capture.

For checking focus, renaming, Bridge works fine.

As far as setting a look, nothing is easier than the Canons.  You can do it from the camera, do it from the software and lock it in.

If your working a very trick look, like really moving curves, or desaturating various colors to give a unique look, you can easily set up a hot folder to lightroom and every now and then let the client see the exact look.

That one is a no brainer, other than it does take someone to man the station and every now and then let a client see a result.

But for overall capture the main thing you want is a clear, clean, large preview (see eos utility) that comes up quickly, or at least quick enough to let the client see the session as it goes and you must have STABILITY.

Now I have limited experience with lc11 though I understand it does this well.  

The only question I have with a leaf back is the firewire power consumption, since the leaf backs cannot be powered from the battery like a phase or a canon when tethering.  I don't want to get into a situation where we have another set of chargers or some kind of powered firewire cord/repeater.

I have been told (so take this with a grain of salt) that if you are using a new powerbook and a leaf back you must power the firewire cord with a separate device.  If this isn't so, I stand corrected.

BC
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gwhitf
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« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2010, 12:47:32 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Have you tethered thousands of captures with a updated mac, a canon and eos utility?  Because I don't find USB to be anything other than stable and fast.

I completely agree. I thought his statement was completely irresponsible. I see nothing but stability and speed.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2010, 12:52:29 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
Do you guys also want this application to show you 100% preview for focus check?
Do you want it to run on a 30" Eizo? Do you want the previews to look sharp and nice on that 30"
Do you want to adjust contrast? Saturation? WB?

Yair,

Yes, to all those things. I just want the RAWs to flow in, with nice tight Previews, and with WB/contrast/etc controls, but those would only overlay a Tag onto/into the RAW file.

The tagged RAWs would live in some kind of Capture Folder, with their Tweaks embedded or sidecar, but then, later, if you wanted to actually Process them into TIFFs, you would open the main application, ie Leaf 11 or Capture One 5.1.1 or Phocus 2.5.

The RAW development engine would be disabled, but you'd be able to have a tiny Focus 100% window.

Actually, I don't really WANT this mini-application, but it just seems that so many people are reporting bloated performance, especially with laptops, that using the main application is like trying to run a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine to power a V12 Hummer -- these Macs are simply underpowered. Phocus seems to be the very worst in this regard -- very sluggish, especially if you arent' running a hot-rod video card.

I would pattern this after how Canon approaches their software -- EOS Utility is used to capture and tether, but if you want to process a big fat TIFF, you've got to use DPP. But the key point is: They are two different stand-alone applications.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:56:50 PM by gwhitf » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2010, 01:32:12 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Yair,

Yes, to all those things. I just want the RAWs to flow in, with nice tight Previews, and with WB/contrast/etc controls, but those would only overlay a Tag onto/into the RAW file.

The tagged RAWs would live in some kind of Capture Folder, with their Tweaks embedded or sidecar, but then, later, if you wanted to actually Process them into TIFFs, you would open the main application, ie Leaf 11 or Capture One 5.1.1 or Phocus 2.5.

The RAW development engine would be disabled, but you'd be able to have a tiny Focus 100% window.

Actually, I don't really WANT this mini-application, but it just seems that so many people are reporting bloated performance, especially with laptops, that using the main application is like trying to run a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine to power a V12 Hummer -- these Macs are simply underpowered. Phocus seems to be the very worst in this regard -- very sluggish, especially if you arent' running a hot-rod video card.

I would pattern this after how Canon approaches their software -- EOS Utility is used to capture and tether, but if you want to process a big fat TIFF, you've got to use DPP. But the key point is: They are two different stand-alone applications.
I don't know if that should be able to acheive with servers via intranet.
2 units would be required, a main unit with the tethered stuff and the dedicated folder. When a pic is choosen to be process in tiff it is sent wireless o cabled in real time to a server on another computer where the AD or retoucher is taking place.
I don't know if it sounds logical or no technically.


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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2010, 01:38:03 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Have you tethered thousands of captures with a updated mac, a canon and eos utility?  Because I don't find USB to be anything other than stable and fast.  Since Apple seems to be constantly limiting the amount of firewire ports on their computers, it seems that the days of firewire and apple are numbered, or at least limited.

No and absolutely no desire too either but that was not the point it was about Macs and USB which have nothing to do with any camera or software. It has been problematic for a long time. Glad it works for you and yes agree Firewire seems to be fading which is really strange and the plug for Firewire 800 is a poor design no question. Back to the cameras obviously software designed for the back or cam will most likely always be the most stable solution. C1 and canon sure it works but why would anyone be expecting miracles out of it. Phase to C1 it better damn work well all the time just like Hassy to Phocus. I have not experienced a slow down in this area or buffer wall and obviously that is something for Phase to look at with there backs and C1.

On a separate tethered program, I think it is a great idea but I would still like color editor involved in the program.


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fredjeang
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« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2010, 01:45:00 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
No and absolutely no desire too either but that was not the point it was about Macs and USB which have nothing to do with any camera or software. It has been problematic for a long time. Glad it works for you and yes agree Firewire seems to be fading which is really strange and the plug for Firewire 800 is a poor design no question. Back to the cameras obviously software designed for the back or cam will most likely always be the most stable solution. C1 and canon sure it works but why would anyone be expecting miracles out of it. Phase to C1 it better damn work well all the time just like Hassy to Phocus. I have not experienced a slow down in this area or buffer wall and obviously that is something for Phase to look at with there backs and C1.

On a separate tethered program, I think it is a great idea but I would still like color editor involved in the program.
I think Guy that an independant tethered software would be good to have. It would have the basics editions so no weight, then the big heavy artillery on another computer. My idea is to completely divide the speed and stability requirements and the real software unit.(heavier retouching, classification...)

That would also have the adventage to isolate a little more the photographer. Units could be placed relatively far.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 01:48:54 PM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2010, 02:20:56 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
No and absolutely no desire too either but that was not the point it was about Macs and USB which have nothing to do with any camera or software. It has been problematic for a long time. Glad it works for you and yes agree Firewire seems to be fading which is really strange and the plug for Firewire 800 is a poor design no question. Back to the cameras obviously software designed for the back or cam will most likely always be the most stable solution. C1 and canon sure it works but why would anyone be expecting miracles out of it. Phase to C1 it better damn work well all the time just like Hassy to Phocus. I have not experienced a slow down in this area or buffer wall and obviously that is something for Phase to look at with there backs and C1.

On a separate tethered program, I think it is a great idea but I would still like color editor involved in the program.


If your not tethering with a phase back how the heck do you read intricate lighting through the camera lcd and present the images to your clients?

No knock on you or Phase, but that lcd scares me, in fact it scares everyone unless you shoot with soft subdued lighting.

I'm not a fan of tethering, clients are to the point a non tethered or problematic tethered shoot can be a deal breaker.


BC
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2010, 03:05:44 PM »
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I am tethering the Phase to c1 back quite often actually just not a canon or Nikon, sorry if that was written wrong or misunderstood.


But if it is hot and heavy sometimes i will pull the cord and after things are set in stone on the set or it becomes a party going on to the side. At some point you just have to say screw everyone else and your just trying to work and i know you guy's run into a whole mess sometimes with a side party going on around you.

I know your as old school as me and come from no look see anyway and you go with your gut and what you know. At least we are past polaroids or worse nothing at all. Believe me i do remember the days when there was nothing but a meter on a set and it was ALL guess work.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 03:11:22 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

yaya
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« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2010, 03:15:28 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Yair,

Yes, to all those things. I just want the RAWs to flow in, with nice tight Previews, and with WB/contrast/etc controls, but those would only overlay a Tag onto/into the RAW file.

The tagged RAWs would live in some kind of Capture Folder, with their Tweaks embedded or sidecar, but then, later, if you wanted to actually Process them into TIFFs, you would open the main application, ie Leaf 11 or Capture One 5.1.1 or Phocus 2.5.

The RAW development engine would be disabled, but you'd be able to have a tiny Focus 100% window.

Actually, I don't really WANT this mini-application, but it just seems that so many people are reporting bloated performance, especially with laptops, that using the main application is like trying to run a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine to power a V12 Hummer -- these Macs are simply underpowered. Phocus seems to be the very worst in this regard -- very sluggish, especially if you arent' running a hot-rod video card.

I would pattern this after how Canon approaches their software -- EOS Utility is used to capture and tether, but if you want to process a big fat TIFF, you've got to use DPP. But the key point is: They are two different stand-alone applications.

FWIW, we did a shoot 2 weeks ago in Wendlingen, Germany; Bikes n' babes type of shoot

We had a 15" MBP (2.33Ghz with 2GB RAM, about 2.5 yr old, quite clean) running LC11 on 10.5.8

Aptus-II 10 on a 645DF and Aptus-II 8 on 645AF, 10m Leaf FW800 cable, laptop plugged in (no repeater) and a 21" Quato monitor attached showing a full size preview

Shot about 650 frames overall in 5 hours so not massive volumes but there were many long bursts there.

We also had a Netgear router and the Leaf Remote server sending previews to a couple of iPhones

No real issues to report, no crashes, no freezes, no real slowdowns either.

Yair

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« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2010, 04:01:08 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
No real issues to report, no crashes, no freezes, no real slowdowns either.
Yair

Leaf Capture used to be the kid in the schoolyard that everybody kicked around. Maybe now, with 11, they've leapfrogged even CaptureOne and Phocus. Congrats.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #132 on: May 14, 2010, 05:33:15 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
I don't know if that should be able to acheive with servers via intranet.
2 units would be required, a main unit with the tethered stuff and the dedicated folder. When a pic is choosen to be process in tiff it is sent wireless o cabled in real time to a server on another computer where the AD or retoucher is taking place.
I don't know if it sounds logical or no technically.

With all due respect, are you a photographer, working in situations like this?

Maybe it's a language thing. Maybe not.
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Fritzer
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« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2010, 11:59:57 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Now I have limited experience with lc11 though I understand it does this well.  

The only question I have with a leaf back is the firewire power consumption, since the leaf backs cannot be powered from the battery like a phase or a canon when tethering.  I don't want to get into a situation where we have another set of chargers or some kind of powered firewire cord/repeater.

I have been told (so take this with a grain of salt) that if you are using a new powerbook and a leaf back you must power the firewire cord with a separate device.  If this isn't so, I stand corrected.

BC

From my experience, LC 11 is rock solid, unlike LC 10 .
But I don't do much high-volume shooting, so take it fwiw.
It is very easy to work with, unlike C1 5.x ; not very much has changed since LC8 in terms of usability .
It's a bit like EOS utility, only less ugly and more intuitive .

The Leaf backs I used do indeed draw a lot of power when tethered, but always worked well on MacBook Pros without Firewire repeaters (powered or not) .
The MBPs have fairly low power output on the Firewire ports, but to my knowledge the latest models are considered a little more stable than they used to be, I never had issues with a straight Leaf DB-Mac connection.
Apple desktop models performe just fine with any configuration, to my knowledge .

USB - I'm not an expert, but it looks to me like Canon have a very well implented camera-computer 'file exchange technology' , for lack of a better term .
Usually, with continious large file transfer, USB gets bogged down very easily; I can only assume the in-camera processing is playing a big part here.
Well, that's why you bring those big spare batteries .

Doesn't really matter, as long as it works .
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2010, 01:29:24 PM »
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Quote from: Fritzer
From my experience, LC 11 is rock solid, unlike LC 10 .
But I don't do much high-volume shooting, so take it fwiw.
It is very easy to work with, unlike C1 5.x ; not very much has changed since LC8 in terms of usability .
It's a bit like EOS utility, only less ugly and more intuitive .

The Leaf backs I used do indeed draw a lot of power when tethered, but always worked well on MacBook Pros without Firewire repeaters (powered or not) .
The MBPs have fairly low power output on the Firewire ports, but to my knowledge the latest models are considered a little more stable than they used to be, I never had issues with a straight Leaf DB-Mac connection.
Apple desktop models performe just fine with any configuration, to my knowledge .

USB - I'm not an expert, but it looks to me like Canon have a very well implented camera-computer 'file exchange technology' , for lack of a better term .
Usually, with continious large file transfer, USB gets bogged down very easily; I can only assume the in-camera processing is playing a big part here.
Well, that's why you bring those big spare batteries .

Doesn't really matter, as long as it works .

+1

we do a lot of high volume shootings with LC11, could happen more than 750 frames in one folder. We use a MacPro setup in studio or for location work a 2009 MBP unibody. Both systems are dedicated for shooting, are build in a case, have a small UPS, use a calibrated display and store the files on a mirrored volume. No issues ever, never polished any contacts, no pimped graphics card and the same fw cable for a long time - always sleep well the night before.
That´s probably why Yair used LC11 during that shoot in Germany.

Cheers, Ulf


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tmx3
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« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2010, 02:53:19 PM »
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know the topic has moved on somewhat but was using phocus today on a speced out macpro tower (h3d 39, 10gb ram + v good video card) and it was really poor - seemed worse than on m y 4gb ram macbookpro. i timed 7 seconds for the preview to rez at 100% and 2 minutes to process out one medium sized jpg (in fact it seemed to be the same time for a 16 bit tiff -everything except quick preview jpgs take 1 min 50 - i did a test). This is after rebooting and running disk permissions, cache cleaning etc. Maybe there is another issue but it was a real pain!
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gwhitf
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« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2010, 02:56:38 PM »
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Quote from: tmx3
i timed 7 seconds for the preview to rez at 100% and 2 minutes to process out one medium sized jpg (in fact it seemed to be the same time for a 16 bit tiff -everything except quick preview jpgs take 1 min 50 - i did a test).

Wow. I really hope that that can't be normal. Or else, you just saved me twenty grand.

Please report back if something changes. Thanks.

SEVEN seconds...? Using a Tower...?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 02:57:01 PM by gwhitf » Logged
Nick-T
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« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2010, 03:34:05 PM »
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Quote from: tmx3
know the topic has moved on somewhat but was using phocus today on a speced out macpro tower (h3d 39, 10gb ram + v good video card) and it was really poor - seemed worse than on m y 4gb ram macbookpro. i timed 7 seconds for the preview to rez at 100% and 2 minutes to process out one medium sized jpg (in fact it seemed to be the same time for a 16 bit tiff -everything except quick preview jpgs take 1 min 50 - i did a test). This is after rebooting and running disk permissions, cache cleaning etc. Maybe there is another issue but it was a real pain!

Something wrong there, I just checked and process out a medium JPG from a 31 MP file and it took 8 seconds.. A 16 bit TIFF from the same file took 11 seconds. I'm guessing you have the moire filter turned on at 3 or more as that filter is very processor intensive (but works better than anything else I've used).

Nick-T
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Nick-T
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« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2010, 03:40:34 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
Something wrong there, I just checked and process out a medium JPG from a 31 MP file and it took 8 seconds.. A 16 bit TIFF from the same file took 11 seconds. I'm guessing you have the moire filter turned on at 3 or more as that filter is very processor intensive (but works better than anything else I've used).

Nick-T

And to clarify I went with medium JPG as that's what you had processed (albeit from a 39 and not a 31).

While I'm waving the flag I just about 325 fast previews for client selection measuring 1082 X 812 px in 46 seconds.

All this on a well specced tower (about 18 months old).
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gwhitf
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« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2010, 03:57:21 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
And to clarify

Tethered, how long from pressing the shutter to see full-rezzed-in Preview on a Macbook Pro Unibody?
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