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Author Topic: CS5 "no colour management" print option gone  (Read 35550 times)
FrankPinkston
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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2010, 04:19:40 PM »
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Quote from: madmanchan
Not yet. Still under development.
What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!

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Farmer
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« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2010, 09:58:39 PM »
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Quote from: FrankPinkston
What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!

The "problem" is not Adobe's.  It lies with variances and vagueries of operating systems, printer vendor drivers and other things (probably including the phase of the moon...)

The functionality in previous versions and the problems associated with it due to changes outside of Adobe's control is precisely why this FREE app is being developed.  It's not a simple matter of just grabbing parts of old PS code and turning it into an app.

If you want to complain - talk to Apple primarily, and printer vendors secondarily (or just get a PC and run Windows - works just fine).
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Schewe
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« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2010, 11:49:05 PM »
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Quote from: FrankPinkston
What's the problem? This feature was in earlier versions of Photoshop so it's not like they have to invent it again. Come on ADOBE!! Get the problem fixed ASAP !!!!

Actually, yes, Adobe did have to start over from scratch on the Mac (which if you had been paying attention you would understand).

Apple changed the print pipeline for Cocoa apps compared to Carbon apps. Since Adobe had to rewrite Photoshop using Cocoa API's in order to take advantage of full 64-bit libraries, they HAD to use the new API's which made No Color Management virtually impossible to do in Photoshop CS5. So, you can either wait for the free profile target printing app, buy a color management app that CAN output printed targets correctly (like Eye-One Match), or learn to use the assign workaround to print out targets in CS5. Or, just output targets from CS4 or CS3.
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FrankPinkston
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2010, 08:02:45 PM »
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Schewe and Farmer, Thanks. I appreciate your comments explaining why the problem exists on a Mac. However, I run the Windows 64 bit version. If the problem is principally due to Apple, I still don't get why an Apple issue caused a problem on the PC version.

Frank
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Schewe
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2010, 11:00:49 PM »
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Quote from: FrankPinkston
If the problem is principally due to Apple, I still don't get why an Apple issue caused a problem on the PC version.

Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2010, 07:52:41 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.

Jeff, yes, that does appear to be what they are doing, but one has to question the wisdom of creating "equality" at the expense of functionality for the OS which did not mess up colour management. As someone on the verge of converting from Windows to OSX, it bothers me that Apple, a company which WAS the standby of the graphic arts community, appears to have turned its back on the trouble it is causing for those wishing to implement a quite fundamental step in developing their colour managed workflows: printing profiling targets accurately. It says little for Apple's management that Adobe feels the need to come in behind them and repair the mess they've made.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 09:20:03 AM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
Jeff, yes, that does appear to be what they are doing, but one has to question the wisdom of creating "equality" at the expense of functionality for the OS which did not mess up colour management. As someone on the verge of converting from Windows to OSX, it bothers me that Apple, a company which WAS the standby of the graphic arts community, appears to have turned its back on the trouble it is causing for those wishing to implement a quite fundamental step in developing their colour managed workflows: printing profiling targets accurately. It says little for Apple's management that Adobe feels the need to come in behind them and repair the mess they've made.

Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess. But I'm happy to report that I already have a Windows-app that lets me print profiles. It's called CS4.   


Eric M.

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-Eric Myrvaagnes

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digitaldog
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 09:24:23 AM »
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Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess.

Its not really a mess, a small stain perhaps. Printing targets, with without cm is fully doable outside Photoshop (or in an older version of Photoshop). The software manufacturers that demand untagged targets be output should be supplying the print paths anyway. And you’ve got all those virus and other windows goodies to keep you cleaning up other messes <g>
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 09:26:05 AM »
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Quote from: Eric Myrvaagnes
Recently I've begun to be thankful that I am on Windows instead of Apple, just because of all this mess. But I'm happy to report that I already have a Windows-app that lets me print profiles. It's called CS4.   


Eric M.

Eric, yes, it's good to be ambidextrous, and as someone who is totally agnostic about brand names of anything (I only care about what serves the purpose efficiently and effectively), I too shall keep windows functionality alive some time after I make the conversion to OSX. But I think having said that we need to put things in perspective. This is one important glitch in the latest implementation of OSX. There is, otherwise, a great deal to be said for working in a Mac environment, which is why I am finally migrating. Not a place to rekindle that whole debate, but there is a litany of reasons which make it sensible, without however invalidating the use of Windows where it happens to be advantageous.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 09:33:26 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Its not really a mess, a small stain perhaps. Printing targets, with without cm is fully doable outside Photoshop (or in an older version of Photoshop). The software manufacturers that demand untagged targets be output should be supplying the print paths anyway. And you’ve got all those virus and other windows goodies to keep you cleaning up other messes <g>

Andrew, maybe I got the wrong end of this stick, so tell me if I'm mistaken, but from what I've read, in Snow Leopard Colorsync will automatically color-manage an image regardless of what software was used to create it, because there is no option to turn off colour management in the OS itself. If that's the case, I don't see how doing this outside Photoshop in Snow Leopard would solve the problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
digitaldog
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 10:38:43 AM »
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The issue was ColorSync or some other issue (we never know fully) providing a problem with untagged target output using no color management. ONCE you build the profile, all is fine and dandy.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 10:54:47 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
The issue was ColorSync or some other issue (we never know fully) providing a problem with untagged target output using no color management. ONCE you build the profile, all is fine and dandy.

Yes, OK, so I got it right. from what I see, the issue still "is" - not "was"; and sure once you build the profile all is fine and dandy. You heard the story of the guy stranded on an island with a sealed can of tunafish - "if only I had a can-opener all would be fine".    
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 11:00:11 AM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
I see, the issue still "is" - not "was"; and sure once you build the profile all is fine and dandy.

It really depends on a number of factors including version of Photoshop, print driver, OS, and other available applications that could print a target without color management. For example, Preview can be made to work like Photoshop CS4 (no color management). So “is” or “was” may be totally moot for a lot of users, even that rare group that printed untagged data of which should be few and far between.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 11:09:17 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
It really depends on a number of factors including version of Photoshop, print driver, OS, and other available applications that could print a target without color management. For example, Preview can be made to work like Photoshop CS4 (no color management). So “is” or “was” may be totally moot for a lot of users, even that rare group that printed untagged data of which should be few and far between.

The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX. The "rarity" of the group that could be affected is not really known and not relevant to solutions. I'm only interested in the technicalities of a solution which really works and for which I don't need yet more software. Sounds like keeping CS4 with Windows active until the new Adobe app ships is the easiest and safest thing to do for all those like me who still have these or some such legacy products.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2010, 11:18:40 AM »
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The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX.

Again, it depends. Works fine with CS3-CS4 etc. ColorMunki prints direct as such a task should be handled in the first place. Software that generates or supplies targets for ICC profiling demand output a fixed way, a method virtually no one else is using and that app should be in charged of printing that data. IF said app could open existing non tagged TIFFs and output, so much the better. I don’t see why Photoshop has to even enter the picture until the profile is built.

Now the inability to print no color management in Photoshop CS5 does affect some of the work I do and I’m not happy about that. I will often use Convert to Profile on multiple images, then gang them in the output space onto a page so I can make one print and inspect different profile options. I would have to print that NCM in Print which I can’t do any longer. I suspect a tiny, tiny group of PS users would need to do this kind of work.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 11:21:00 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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Schewe
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 12:23:43 PM »
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Quote from: Mark D Segal
The fact remains that now you need more than one application to do what you could have done previously within Photoshop and OSX.


Yes, and you seem to keep forgetting what I told you...in order to do what the old No Color Management did in Photoshop in a Carbon API application, the engineers (and product management) determined that trying to do the same hack (because it was a hack that could and was broken many times by Apple) was unmanageable. So, No Color Management was yanked...yes, Win users also lost..so what. The impact is ONLY on people who need to print out intentionally untagged profile making targets. Even back when Photoshop had the ability, a lot of users still failed to properly use it–as Andrew how many people took the target and printed it incorrectly and sent him off the print to read...

So, Photoshop CS5 and above will no longer be engaged in an activity that the color management companies should themselves be doing. You have a color target, you need to read the printed target, shouldn't the CM application provide a method of easily printing that target? I say yes...more moderns ones like Eye-One Match does...

So, rather than tie Photoshop CS5 and above do this, Adobe is going to offer a free, cross platform printer application probably named "Adobe Color Printer Utility" that should be very easy to use and very easy for Adobe to rev in the event that there are underlying issues caused by the OS print pipeline in the future...

Pi$$ & Moan™ all you want about Apple & ColorSync, it pisses me off no end, that's the reality we live in. Deal with it. Also note that color management on Windows ain't exactly nirvana either bud...the only nice thing about Windows is by and large it doesn't do anything bad which means it's up to the applications and the print drivers to get things right. Which doesn't always happen either...

No Color Management is out of Photoshop CS5 and above. Time to move along now...
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digitaldog
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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2010, 12:28:32 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
...the only nice thing about Windows is by and large it doesn't do anything bad which means it's up to the applications and the print drivers to get things right. Which doesn't always happen either...

And they have “Install Profile” as a contextual menu for profiles. That’s too cool <g>.

Even in OS9, dragging an ICC profile into the system folder would automatically move it to the correct location. What a step back for OS X (despite the multiple location options).
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Andrew Rodney
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FrankPinkston
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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2010, 01:27:29 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Because, where possible, Adobe strives for cross=platform equality. Also, on Windows, 99% of the printers out there will properly print out a target from Photoshop with Print Manages Color and the actual print drivers set to No Color Management. The problem on Mac is that ColorSync would not allow that and the former hacked work-a-rounds simply proved unsustainable.
Isn't this developing software for the lowest common denominator? If something works on 80% of the computers out there, let's break it so we can be compatible with the 20% ?
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Schewe
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« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2010, 01:44:08 PM »
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Quote from: FrankPinkston
If something works on 80% of the computers out there, let's break it so we can be compatible with the 20% ?


Yep...although the split in digital imaging is more like 45/55 Mac to PC not 20/80.

Also, do you have solid numbers regarding what % of the total Photoshop marketplace will be impacted by the removal of No Color Management from Print –and guess what, photographers make up less than 10% of the Ps user base–so, how many users are really impacted?

Just how many times in the last year did YOU print out color targets for the purpose of building print profiles?

Not to mention there _IS_ a workable solution to print targets in CS5, you can always use an earlier version or print out of the color management apps that DO support outputting targets...or wait for the free printing app Adobe will be making available.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2010, 02:57:22 PM »
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Jeff, I agree that Photoshop isn't the issue here. For example, my Pulse Color Elite system prints the targets straight out of its own application without even opening Photoshop, I have been doing a fair bit of that lately and I can do it with confidence that once I turn off colour management in the Epson driver, the target printing process is worked as wanted - i.e. Windows XP isn't imposing another level of colour management under the hood. If I got it right, I think that's the complaint which came in with Snow Leopard - it is doing unwanted stuff under the hood. So if that's the issue, the whole debate about how many Photoshop users are impacted is irrelevant. Anyone who prints targets from any application could be impacted. Is it a thousand people, ten thousand people - I don't know, I don't care. It's a necessary functionality for "X" number of people, and if the problem is lodged within the OS that's unfortunate. So for now, the solution is to use another OS for this purpose which doesn't raise the issue, or wait for Adobe's forthcoming target printing app - good of them to be preparing this.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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