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Author Topic: Canvas Coatings - Gloss, Semi-Gloss  (Read 14405 times)
Roscolo
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« on: May 03, 2010, 10:12:34 PM »
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I have a customer for whom I was printing images of his paintings. He seems to prefer a gloss or semi-gloss finish. We played around with some acrylic gel medium and he liked the effect.

Question: What are some of the better options out there. Everything looks to be $90 / gallon and up. What do you like and why? I've looked at Glamour II and Eco Print Shield. Has anyone used Lexjet's Sunset Coatings? I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas.

And this isn't just for his paintings. Now I'm thinking of coating my photos that are printed on canvas. I do not want a hi-gloss on my photos on canvas. How does a Glamour II matte coating look compared to just the print on canvas. If it only darkens the blacks, but the rest of the print appears more or less how it appears uncoated, that may be up my alley for my photographs. If possible, I would prefer an alternative product not from Breathing Color. One of their reps was downright pushy and rude in a sales / telemarketing call and that has stuck in my mind ever since. I understand a lot of folks like the Glamour II product, though.

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neile
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 10:47:56 PM »
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I've used Glamour II and can give a few pointers. Hopefully others like Dan will chime in, as they have far more experience with the coating side of things.

The Glamour II matte really isn't meant to be used straight. It's intended to mix with the Glamour II gloss to adjust the sheen to your desired look. I use a 50/50 mix of the two and like it a lot. It's a protective coating that adds a bit of shine but isn't super gloss.

How you apply it makes a difference as well. I've only ever used roller application, but others who use a spraygun say that you can get very different effects at the same mix ratio just by how many layers you apply.

You can order pints of the matte and gloss from Breathing Colour to try it out before committing to the full gallon buckets.

Neil
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bill t.
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 12:24:13 AM »
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Part of the reason the for-canvas coatings are so expensive is that they as designed to be flexible enough so you can stretch the canvas (within a reasonable period after coating).

Glamour II represents pretty good value because it is rather concentrated.  1 gallon over GII translates to about 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of coating that you can supposedly use "straight from the can" such as Clearshield and the Lexjet product.  Of course handling the thicker-than-molasses GII concentrate up to the dilution step can be a PITA by any measure, until you get your technique together.

Yes you can get different finishes just by the way you apply the coating.  But I think for maximum protection and durability and minimum sub-surface scattering you should always apply very thick, wet coats and only vary the mixture of matte and gloss to get the desired finish.  As little as 1:9 Matte:Gloss gives you a distinctly less-than-glossy finish, at about 50:50 you are very distinctly matte.  It takes about 6 hours for GII to dry to the point where you can judge the finish, which gradually loses it's gloss for long after it is dry to the touch.

You must coat canvases unless you plan to frame them under glass or plex.  Uncoated matte canvas prints can look quite nice, but in a way that can't be duplicated by a matte-coated canvas.  Coating just adds a different dynamic, no matter what you do.

Coating pulls down the blacks quite a bit and increases the overall apparent snap of the print.  Basically, just print with your shadows a little more open than you want.  I have semi-successfully used special profiles made from coated canvas, but without yakking a lot I would advise you to use profiles made from uncoated canvas, and print up.

Set aside a few weeks to learn the ins and outs of using canvas.  There are lots of ins, and many outs.  But let me save you at least 2 months...wet coatings, not dry ones.  And HVLP is good, but rolling can be mastered by those with high pain thresholds.

And I know certain people who use just regular Home Depot acrylic coatings on their canvases.  But I won't tell you who they are, or what they use because I think it unwise.



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Roscolo
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2010, 03:23:18 PM »
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Still researching coatings. Has anyone used Breathing Color's Timeless coating? Apparently it is the replacement for the Glamour II product.

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kdphotography
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 03:40:31 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Still researching coatings. Has anyone used Breathing Color's Timeless coating? Apparently it is the replacement for the Glamour II product.

Actually Timeless is not a replacement for Glamour II.  It is a ready to use (no mixing) sealant.  The available matte finish is supposed to be what really sets Timeless apart from the rest.  I recently received a pint of the Timeless matte to try.  Otherwise, I'm extremely happy using Glamour II with hvlp on Lyve Canvas.  I've got it to where missing Glamour II in the right ratio is easy and works well everytime.  Timeless is more expensive since you don't really dilute the solution, though you may thin it slightly when using a hvlp sprayer.

ken
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Roscolo
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 03:57:25 PM »
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Quote from: kdphotography
Actually Timeless is not a replacement for Glamour II.  It is a ready to use (no mixing) sealant.  The available matte finish is supposed to be what really sets Timeless apart from the rest.  I recently received a pint of the Timeless matte to try.  Otherwise, I'm extremely happy using Glamour II with hvlp on Lyve Canvas.  I've got it to where missing Glamour II in the right ratio is easy and works well everytime.  Timeless is more expensive since you don't really dilute the solution, though you may thin it slightly when using a hvlp sprayer.

ken


Thanks. The other thing I'm trying to calculate is how much canvas I can cover per gallon of Glamour II. Breathing Color's site states that one coat of Glamour II is usually enough. I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte. For my own work I print for retail sale, I'm not as concerned, but for my customers for whom I'm printing their photos and paintings, the margin is slimmer and I need to adjust my prices to account for the coating expense and labor.

For Glamour II users, how many square feet of canvas can you coat per gallon of Glamour II?



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Dan Berg
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 04:12:40 PM »
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I have not tried the Timeless product to date as I am happy with my Glamor II results. As Bill points out give yourself plenty of time and just work with the product. I do not care for the straight matte finish or even 50/50 matte/gloss. At this point I have about 4 containers with different mixtures of glamor and my most used mixture is 75/25 gloss/matte.
I have never done any calculations with regards to useage of Glamor II. Spraying clearshield was easy to figure useage because the cans usually only covered 2 prints.
My charge for glamor is 3 cents per square inch but everyone that orders canvas gets the varnish so it is really built into the price.
Its probably just as easy for you to figure out the useage yourself. Just keep track of how many ounces you are using when you do a mixture and keep track of how many square feet it covers. You know what you pay per gallon which gives you the cost per ounce. Do the math and you have your answer.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 04:48:45 PM »
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Thanks, Dan. Eventually I'll have the sq.ft. / gallon calculated, but as I've never used Glamour II before, I'm just trying to get some rough numbers out there to a few customers. Canvasses I've seen, I'm not at all crazy about the high-gloss appearance. I'm looking for more of a satin appearance.

I'm going to experiment with some acrylic mediums and varnishes for paintings as well. Those are in the $50-$75 / gallon range. Painters have the same non-yellowing and archival concerns as I do, so it seems worth experimenting with. I've not seen any independent archival ratings for the Glamour II product so I'm a little cautious about using it. Think I may order some small quantities of Glamour II, Eco Printshield, and some artist's acrylic varnish and experiment. Spraying seems like the way to go.

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Dan Berg
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 05:18:28 PM »
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Spraying is a very good way to go. I believe I get more out of a gallon by spraying if you know what i mean. If you use an ounce of glamor per square foot your cost should be less then .50 per square foot. Thats less then half the cost of Clearshield per square foot. I have done no real tests and am just estimating.
Good idea to try all these different products as it is the best way to learn.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 07:33:22 PM by Dan Berg » Logged

Roscolo
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 06:12:10 PM »
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I think this is my last question on the topic. I purchased an airless sprayer some years ago. Big unit. Used it to paint my house and the gallery here. Mine has been packed up and unused for years. Probably needs a new gun. Can't remember the model name. How would a commercial airless sprayer do for spraying canvas?

Thanks for all the help.

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Gemmtech
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 09:39:50 AM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Spraying is a very good way to go. I believe I get more out of a gallon by spraying if you know what i mean. If you use an ounce of glamor per square foot your cost should be less then .50 per square foot. Thats less then half the cost of Clearshield per square foot. I have done no real tests and am just estimating.
Good idea to try all these different products as it is the best way to learn.

Dan,  Off Topic, did you close your furniture making business?  I noticed you no longer link to the website.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 09:53:03 AM »
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Quote from: Gemmtech
Dan,  Off Topic, did you close your furniture making business?  I noticed you no longer link to the website.

Yes I did,Aug. 09. I now have  the whole 2500 sq. ft. renovated into a gallery and printmaking studio. Way more then I need but I have about half of it still filled with equipment for woodworking.
Here is a quick picture of the renovated studio/workshop and spray booth. I am still cleaning up sawdust that is falling through the cracks in the walls.  
Thanks for asking.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 09:57:38 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Roscolo
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 10:53:17 AM »
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Still not sure if my airless sprayer is appropriate for spraying canvas coatings. I have a Campbell Hausfeld airless, 1/2 hp, .30 gpm sprayer. It is about like this one:

http://www.cpocampbellhausfeld.com/paint_s...ers/ps250b.html

Seems everyone is using HVLP systems, and if I understand correctly, an airless unit like mine is High pressure and so may not be ideal or even practical for spraying canvas.

Can someone confirm or deny?

I see some folks seem to be getting good results with a cheap Wagner HVLP.

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Dan Berg
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2010, 11:13:19 AM »
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I cannot answer directly with regards to that model but  do not see any reason why it would not work. An absolute must is to make sure it is clean. It is very important to not switch back and forth between multiple products. Paint,varnishes etc.
You would be amazed at what sticks to the insides of your lines and gun.  Any contaminate that finds it's way onto the print will ruin your day.
Control of the spray nozzel is super important as well. You have to be able to adjust your spray ouput. Its not like spraying the deck.
 I have plenty of spraybooth experience just none with your type equipment. Mix a small batch and try it out.
Please let us know how it worked out.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 11:15:58 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Colorwave
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2010, 12:27:02 PM »
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Roscolo-
I've used a number of airless sprayers over the years, and suspect that it can be done, but think it will be far from ideal.  The units are designed for volume spraying of relatively inexpensive, heavy material.  Undiluted acrylic latex blasted on a wall is very nearly the other end of the spectrum from what we want for applying clear finish to prints.  The units I owned did not even have any real adjustability of the air to material ratios (that is a function of the spray head, and is strictly venturi), or fan spread.  There was a pump pressure adjustment only.  I think some adjustment can be had by getting a different spray tip, perhaps one with a smaller orifice, but I think you are going to find that they are very wasteful and produce a large amount of overspray.  The large amount of material in the hoses would also make routine cleanup very labor intensive.  Keeping it loaded full time is possible, but a real pain to avoid drying problems where there is contact with air.  I once sprayed a lot of contact cement with a pressure pot and compressor and was quite successful with keeping that setup going without flushing, but airless sprayers are not as easy to do that with.  In my opinion, the money you save in not buying new equipment will be fairly quickly offset by the additional coating you will go through.  With the challenge of applying the material properly with the airless, it seems like a misguided compromise.  On the other hand, if you want to get into printing mural size prints with a grand format printer, you may be ideally positioned to coat them quickly and efficiently.
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milt
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2010, 02:06:56 PM »
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There is some really good advice buried in the history of this forum.  Here are some threads about coating in the last year:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=42429

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=41103

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39983

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=38663

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=37456

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33259

--Milt--
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2010, 02:18:55 PM »
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Thank you Milt for taking the time to dig those out.
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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2010, 11:41:51 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
I'm going to experiment with some acrylic mediums and varnishes for paintings as well. Those are in the $50-$75 / gallon range. Painters have the same non-yellowing and archival concerns as I do, so it seems worth experimenting with. I've not seen any independent archival ratings for the Glamour II product so I'm a little cautious about using it. Think I may order some small quantities of Glamour II, Eco Printshield, and some artist's acrylic varnish and experiment. Spraying seems like the way to go.

A became curious about the various acrylic coatings available, and their prices. Basically, all these coatings have their origins in a Rohman Haas product from the 50's call Rhoplex. Acrylic artists in the 60's jumped all over it, using it as a paint base to add pigments and other additives to. Also, the popular arcrylics--Liquitex and Golden medias come from this same product.

If you check with art schools, you will find that many artists will buy the polymer base called Rhoplex from local paint companys that use it to manufacture their own latex paints.

I found that the Rosco company (Rosco theatrical gels), also sells a similar product available as a clear gloss and matte.
http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp

I have been using the clear gloss and diluting it about 1 to 1 and spraying with an HPLC type unit. The product is similar with a milky appearance that drys to a nice clear glossy appearance. You will note that it contains Titanium Oxide, which is a UV protectant. The list price is a very reasonable $39/gallon. But it comes packaged in a traditioinal metal paint can.

I have a south window test in progress right now with the Rosco product coating Ink Jet Technology's Water Resistant Canvas. If I have not seen any shift after 3-5 months of Nebraska Summer sun, I'm sure it will be comparable to the other commercial products.

John Nollendorfs
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Roscolo
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2010, 12:13:23 PM »
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Quote from: John Nollendorfs
I found that the Rosco company (Rosco theatrical gels), also sells a similar product available as a clear gloss and matte.
http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp

I have been using the clear gloss and diluting it about 1 to 1 and spraying with an HPLC type unit. The product is similar with a milky appearance that drys to a nice clear glossy appearance. You will note that it contains Titanium Oxide, which is a UV protectant. The list price is a very reasonable $39/gallon. But it comes packaged in a traditioinal metal paint can.


John Nollendorfs

Thanks, John. This is the kind of info. I've been searching for. In my experience, everything that carries the Rosco name is top-notch. Have you used any of the Rosco matte product? Curious if you can achieve a satin appearance by combining the Rosco gloss with the Rosco matte, as you can with the "other brands." Keep us posted on your test. I'm definitely putting this on my list of products to try.

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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2010, 10:22:34 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Thanks, John. This is the kind of info. I've been searching for. In my experience, everything that carries the Rosco name is top-notch. Have you used any of the Rosco matte product? Curious if you can achieve a satin appearance by combining the Rosco gloss with the Rosco matte, as you can with the "other brands." Keep us posted on your test. I'm definitely putting this on my list of products to try.

I'm sure you can mix the two together, but I am quite happy with the gloss product. I bought it as an experiment, figuring I could always buy the matte latter on if needed. Additionally I have found, it is quite forgiving in it's application. If you get a run, just carefully blot it up with a paper towel before it starts to dry. I've used about 1/3 of a gallon in two months and have excellent results so far. The real proof will be when I examine the South Window tests after 4 months in September. I am confident there will be no yellowing, but want to make sure that there is no interaction with the HP pigmented inks from the Z3100 and the IJ water resistant canvas. People stretching the canvas, report no problems with cracking at the edges. Will keep everyone apprised if I notice any  problems.

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