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Author Topic: Canvas Coatings - Gloss, Semi-Gloss  (Read 15346 times)
Roscolo
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2010, 03:21:31 PM »
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I found a local source for the Rosco Clear and Matte coatings and will be trying them out next week.

I wonder how the Rosco Plastic Varnish would do? It's also available in gloss and matte and you can blend the 2 together. May give some of that a test as well.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 03:34:33 PM by Roscolo » Logged
John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2010, 03:50:08 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
I found a local source for the Rosco Clear and Matte coatings and will be trying them out next week.

I wonder how the Rosco Plastic Varnish would do? It's also available in gloss and matte and you can blend the 2 together. May give some of that a test as well.
Are you referring to the Urethanes? They may be a "harder" finish, and may have problems with craquelure when stretched. I was having problems like that when using Krylon Kamar spray--a year or two after spraying and stretching,  the canvas' developed fine cracks all over. Also, I discovered, that the Krylon Kamar spray did not offer very good water protection when used on a "non-water resistant" canvas.

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Roscolo
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2010, 04:09:23 PM »
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John, no, the Rosco Plastic Varnish is water-based and apparently you can achieve varying gloss by mixing matte with gloss. See the specs here:

http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx

Can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer and judging from the lack of bubbles or edges, appears to be self-leveling as well. I may pick up a gallon of this and experiment as well, especially when you look at some of the dilutions. 1 gallon could turn into 3-4 gallons of workable coating.

Correction: just realized the Plastic Varnish is not a Rosco product, but is made by Sculptural Arts Coatings. I think I'll still give it a test.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 04:13:36 PM by Roscolo » Logged
Rocco Penny
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2010, 04:22:53 PM »
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Hello, Roscolo,
only able to impart a few words here.
HVLP set-ups are easy to use.
Airless ain't

You'll need ml x many = enough to fill the rig and hose on an airless.
Airless delivers somewhere north of 1000 psi at the tip.
Massive overspray even for a good hand
Airless will work, I just don't see how if you could do that you couldn't get an inexpensive cupgun, or an expensive one for that matter.
I have a 50 dollar one that has lasted and the only thing it hates is not being cleaned
To fill an airless it seems like depending, could take a gallon, then spraying, another depending on how much work you've got, then the second gallon will be sitting in the rig, flush it through with water to clean, and lose at least 40 bucks in the process.
Buys your cup gun and a gallon for the same price.
Then there's the part of what to do with the leavings
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Roscolo
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2010, 04:35:36 PM »
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Quote from: Rocco Penny
HVLP set-ups are easy to use.
Airless ain't

Thanks. I already have a nice airless spray system, but I figured out airless isn't the way to go for spraying canvas. I'll probably go for the cheap Wagner folks seem to have success with and go from there.


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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2010, 05:40:32 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Thanks. I already have a nice airless spray system, but I figured out airless isn't the way to go for spraying canvas. I'll probably go for the cheap Wagner folks seem to have success with and go from there.
Yep, I got the $60 Wagner. Works pretty well, but sometimes gets cranky and doesn't want to spit out anything. Just put your finger in front of nozzle to build up pressure in container. After a bit of usage, tends to get stuff built up around central needle that you can't remove for cleaning. Made a cleaning tool out of a paper clip to scrape the build up off.

The plastic, might be a thicker media--The Rosco stuff is quite thin already before adding water. It dries pretty quickly--5 minutes or less depending on how thick you put it on. Don't worry if it looks milky when you spray. It will dry clear. If it starts to run, quickly blot with paper towel. I put on 3-4 coats. First coats can go on pretty heavy. Go lighter with additional coats.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2010, 06:00:53 PM »
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Thanks, John, again for the Rosco tip. In the past I've done some concrete staining and floor finishing / coating. Very high-end stuff with various coatings, including epoxies. Much bigger concerns regarding yellowing, cracking, water and chemical resistance etc. than canvas coatings for prints, with a much greater cost in $$$ and damage if the materials fail, and I don't think I ever saw any product approach $100 / gallon. If I can get the same results with a more realistic price with a similar, and perhaps even the same formula, I'm all for it. I'm not unconvinced that at least some of the products being marketed as proprietary formulations created exclusively for canvas prints are just repackaged, relabeled existing formulas. I know I've seen it done with papers, canvas and other substrates, so why not coatings? No one will ever admit to that, of course, but I would not be surprised.

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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2010, 06:35:47 AM »
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I'm not too sure, consult a professional, but the differences between hvlp sprayers is quite significant.
The self powered and semi-adjustable wagner plug in or any variation of it,
I'd steer away from.
The difference in adjustability with a 3 control hvlp and a small compressor is night and day.
The hvlp will make the work a breeze, but you need a compressor.
So get a 300 dollar 4cfm make sure the gun you get will be supported.
My small pancake compressor works with mine.
I also have a larger 4cfm@60psi I think works better with my conditions.
So look into the cupguns and don't be afraid to step into the realm of something more esoteric.
good luck,
rocco
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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2010, 12:46:02 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
John, no, the Rosco Plastic Varnish is water-based and apparently you can achieve varying gloss by mixing matte with gloss. See the specs here:

http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx

Can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer and judging from the lack of bubbles or edges, appears to be self-leveling as well. I may pick up a gallon of this and experiment as well, especially when you look at some of the dilutions. 1 gallon could turn into 3-4 gallons of workable coating.

Correction: just realized the Plastic Varnish is not a Rosco product, but is made by Sculptural Arts Coatings. I think I'll still give it a test.
Just wondering what your experiences with the Plastic Varnish were? Have you been happy with the Rosco product That I've been using?



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Roscolo
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2010, 04:11:38 AM »
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Quote from: John Nollendorfs
Just wondering what your experiences with the Plastic Varnish were? Have you been happy with the Rosco product That I've been using?

Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.

Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.

Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 04:15:53 AM by Roscolo » Logged
na goodman
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2010, 07:33:04 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.

Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.

Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.

I'm a little confused, exactly what Rosco product are you using?
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Roscolo
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2010, 10:54:05 AM »
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Quote from: na goodman
I'm a little confused, exactly what Rosco product are you using?

Rosco Acrylic Glaze, Flat and Gloss mixed proportionally to control sheen. Rosco recommends cutting it 1:1 with water, so it ends up nice and fluid, not goopy like some other options I've tried, and that also makes it a perfect match for the Wagner sprayer, but you don't want to spray this product vertically (not with the Wagner anyways), or even at a steep incline. I took some of the plastic things that are stuck in the tubes of rolls of wide-format paper and canvas and put them on the floor, then taped my prints to foam core and put the top of the foam core on those plastic things. Just a slight incline off the floor. Works PERFECT. Even on my first ones. Praise the Wagner and LL forums. If I was rolling, I would still be rolling for the next 3 days.


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na goodman
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2010, 01:07:29 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Rosco Acrylic Glaze, Flat and Gloss mixed proportionally to control sheen. Rosco recommends cutting it 1:1 with water, so it ends up nice and fluid, not goopy like some other options I've tried, and that also makes it a perfect match for the Wagner sprayer, but you don't want to spray this product vertically (not with the Wagner anyways), or even at a steep incline. I took some of the plastic things that are stuck in the tubes of rolls of wide-format paper and canvas and put them on the floor, then taped my prints to foam core and put the top of the foam core on those plastic things. Just a slight incline off the floor. Works PERFECT. Even on my first ones. Praise the Wagner and LL forums. If I was rolling, I would still be rolling for the next 3 days.

I have the same gun as you and use it without any problems with glamour II. I was asking about the Rosco because someone was asking for a harder finish for a specific project and I thought it might work but as someone had pointed out earlier some of the acrylics show small cracks all over after a period of time. Thanks for the info. Does it say it is specifically for inkjet coated canvas?
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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2010, 02:30:39 PM »
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I've had an interesting problem crop up with the Rosco Clear Acrylic Gloss coating http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp

Even if the prints have dried for several days, if you put them sprayed face to face, they WILL STICK to each other

Rosco does make a "harder" product, that is a water urethane base, but I'm afraid it also might have a cracking problem??

Regarding the "sticking" problem, I did talk to Jason, a rep at Rosco, and he said this is a problem with the "glazes". Not so much with their paint products, but it seems inherent in the Vinyl Acrylic products. He said people have been known to use talc powder to try and prevent the sticking. I asked if using a spray like Krylon UV Resistant Clear Acrylic coating might counter the problem. He said he had no experience--to try a test and see how it works.

I just checked on my South Window tests put up May 14th. I found no color shift on any of the samples. I did find the IJ Technologies  coated  canvas has taken on a slight yellow/antique tint. compared  to my control.  I suspect the product has UV brighetners in it which have started to fade. I checked with IJ TEchnologies, and they confirmed that their Water Resistant Canvas does have some UV brighteners in it. But said a good UV protectant top coat should prevent the brightener fade.

Wet tooth brush to clear the spray nozzel is a good tip!

For what it's worth, I spray my prints tacked to a wall with the Wagner HVLP Gun. First coat can go on pretty heavy with no threat of runs. Subsequent coats should be put on much lighter. Yes, I do reverse my spray patterns for each coat. Also, if you do get a slight run or "glob" forming, just gently touch it with a dry paper towel to remove excess. I generally use 3-4 coats.

John Nollendorfs


Quote from: Roscolo
Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.

Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.

Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2010, 05:31:08 PM »
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Quote from: John Nollendorfs
Even if the prints have dried for several days, if you put them sprayed face to face, they WILL STICK to each other

John Nollendorfs

That's hard to imagine just from touching my prints. There is no tack at all, and I'm in the hot, humid South, but I never put prints on any surface face to face anyway. Always just the opposite, until I stretch them. Then if I ever have to pack them face to face I'm putting a sheet of foam core or cardboard in between.

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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2010, 05:57:14 PM »
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If you gallery wrap them, the wrap goes around to the back. If you stack them vertically, they can touch on the edges. Just warning you about unpleasant possible surprises! I'm investigating possible solutions!

John Nollendorfs

Quote from: Roscolo
That's hard to imagine just from touching my prints. There is no tack at all, and I'm in the hot, humid South, but I never put prints on any surface face to face anyway. Always just the opposite, until I stretch them. Then if I ever have to pack them face to face I'm putting a sheet of foam core or cardboard in between.
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Colorwave
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2010, 07:37:51 PM »
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The trade off of any clear finish is finding the right combination of hardness and flexibility.  Too hard, and it winds up fracturing over time when it contracts and you wind up with craquelure.  Too soft, and it is gummy and sticky.  That's what has impressed me about Glamour II, is that it has a very nice balance of the two.  I know from decades of painting experience that water borne finishes that are inherently glossy, meaning that they do not have flattening agents mixed into them (usually talc), stay soft and impressionable for quite some time.  The paint manufacturers say that semi-gloss and gloss acrylics have a cure time in excess of a month before reaching maximum hardness.  Heat accelerates the cure, but exacerbates the softness and stickiness problem until a full cure is reached, if you've ever seen one of these finishes after being left in strong direct sun.  

With luck, you will find that the problem with the Rosco product goes away as it reaches a full cure.  I've used their scenic paints for a very long time, and they have a great reputation for quality products.  Unfortunately, I haven't been willing to experiment with something that we really won't know about for years down the road, when selling a product that I'm promoting as archival.  I feel much safer using one of the products tested and promoted for canvas art coatings until there is a wider consensus about the alternatives.  I know of a local fine art printer who experimented with third party inks in his Epson and paid the price in only a year's time, and would personally dread a phone call down the road when I heard from a client about one of my pieces failing in some way, as a result of me going off the beaten path.  YMMV
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Roscolo
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« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2010, 12:12:36 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
The trade off of any clear finish is finding the right combination of hardness and flexibility.  Too hard, and it winds up fracturing over time when it contracts and you wind up with craquelure.  Too soft, and it is gummy and sticky.  That's what has impressed me about Glamour II, is that it has a very nice balance of the two.  I know from decades of painting experience that water borne finishes that are inherently glossy, meaning that they do not have flattening agents mixed into them (usually talc), stay soft and impressionable for quite some time.  The paint manufacturers say that semi-gloss and gloss acrylics have a cure time in excess of a month before reaching maximum hardness.  Heat accelerates the cure, but exacerbates the softness and stickiness problem until a full cure is reached, if you've ever seen one of these finishes after being left in strong direct sun.  

With luck, you will find that the problem with the Rosco product goes away as it reaches a full cure.  I've used their scenic paints for a very long time, and they have a great reputation for quality products.  Unfortunately, I haven't been willing to experiment with something that we really won't know about for years down the road, when selling a product that I'm promoting as archival.  I feel much safer using one of the products tested and promoted for canvas art coatings until there is a wider consensus about the alternatives.  I know of a local fine art printer who experimented with third party inks in his Epson and paid the price in only a year's time, and would personally dread a phone call down the road when I heard from a client about one of my pieces failing in some way, as a result of me going off the beaten path.  YMMV

This may just be an issue of folks not packing or storing their finished work properly. I never put anything face to face without something neutral in between, usually a piece of foam core. I did spray all these canvasses, let some of them dry for as little as 2-3 hours, then stretched them and had them hanging outside under at tent in 98 degrees high humidity for 2 days. Packed them in cardboard boxes, 2 to a box, back to back, and then they sat in an enclosed van this morning for a few hours before I got them out (tired!). Result? They look great. No scuffs nor marks. Some of the canvasses need to be tensioned a little.

Regarding the Rosco materials, I'm going to put some of these in the direct sun and do some tests. I have numerous friends in stage, TV and film production and everyone - everyone - vouches for the reliability, consistency, and quality of the Rosco coatings. That's why I'm using it. As far as longevity, Rosco has been around a whole lot longer producing products for much more quality critical customers than Breathing Color or Glamour anything, and we won't know the real, actual archival qualities of any of this stuff until the 200-300 years has actually passed. I'll take Rosco's track record and reputation, but if I have any problems or if everything continues to look great, I will definitely report back here.

I don't market anything on canvas I'm spraying goop on as "archival." The whole reason I'm doing canvasses is to use the deep profile stretchers to cut out the framing and glass from my photos to sell to a different buyer. Any photo not behind glass I have a hard time representing as archival. If someone is that concerned about archival qualities, I'm prepared to make a print on ph neutral paper, no coatings, and frame behind glass with museum quality materials. But they are going to have to pay more, a lot more, for that product than for the convenient ready-to-hang work on canvas. For me the coating is about a layer of protection from the elements and to make the canvas "cleanable" and "dustable" more so than to make it archival.

That said, if I have any probems, I'll report back here. I had a friend who did set design for the Met, and the Rosco paints / coatings carried his highest recommendation. Along with virtually all my other pals doing set work. I got the initial idea from Nollendorfs here, then followed up with people using the stuff What really got me moving in that direction away from the Breathing Color's and Clearstars that the only way I could find to get them was off the web. Rosco is more convenient and affordable because I have at least one local supplier. And it sprays great through that cheap Wagner sprayer.

I don't have much experience spraying canvas, but I have years of experience packing, unpacking, shipping and displaying art. I would say the surface of any canvas, sprayed or unsprayed, should not be coming into contact with the front or back of another canvas. Ever. Issues of sticking likely aren't so much a problem with the coating as a problem with one's packing or storage method.

I'm in the south with a south facing porch. Think I'll do 4 prints of the same image, all sprayed with Rosco Clear. One in a dark box. One in a South facing window. One just hanging on a wall. And one tacked up exposed to the sun and elements hanging right off the porch! I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas. I don't know if the Sunset Select Matte Canvas has OBA's.

Thanks to everyone here for all the help, advice and suggestions.

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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2010, 10:09:35 PM »
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I'm checking on finding a suitable UV additive to incorporate in the Rosco product, which should make it comparable to the high priced Glamor2 product.

These coating products are not "rocket science". Just takes a bit of detective work. The vinyl acrylics (Rohplex) have been around since the 1950's and are known to exhibit good archival properties.

Regarding "archival" qualities of ink jet canvas', that's been a topic of discussion for quite a while. Canvas is subject to more abuse, than framed under glass prints. The art inkjet papers have much more history about their archival properties. RC photopapers??who know how long the substrate will last? The early photograhic RC papers were very susceptable to break down under UV exposure. Baryta papers?? The photographic versions were around a long time. But as soon as you incorporate the microporous coating???

Most of the research in archival properties have been investigated regarding image stability in accelerated tests for fading from light, and ozone.  Stability of the substrate due to aging, humidity, and pollution is much more difficult to accomplish.

Wilhelm has tested a number of Premier coatings with several art papers and found it seemed to enhance the fade resistance  by around 25%. (most likely because it seals the microporous coating)He has not tested the Glamour 2 product AFAIK. I will try and check with him (Wilhelm) tomorrow about his canvas coating product experiences. With the growing popularity of canvas printing, I'm sure he would be interested some testing in this area. I'm surprised with the premium price Breathing Color gets for their Glamour II product, they have not had it tested with publicly  released results.

John Nollendorfs

 
Quote from: Roscolo
I'm in the south with a south facing porch. Think I'll do 4 prints of the same image, all sprayed with Rosco Clear. One in a dark box. One in a South facing window. One just hanging on a wall. And one tacked up exposed to the sun and elements hanging right off the porch! I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas. I don't know if the Sunset Select Matte Canvas has OBA's.

Thanks to everyone here for all the help, advice and suggestions.
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larryg
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 07:54:56 PM »
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This is a great thread.  I am now interested in trying the Gallery wrapping myself.  Actually I have done some but it has been several years.


I will start with the roller method  but also am interested in making my own stretcher bars (what the canvas is stapled to).


for 11x14 to 24x30   what size wood would be best  and do you reinforce/brace the frame/stretcher bar or is this needed for smaller enlargements.


This thread has been very interesting and helpful to me

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 07:56:02 PM by larryg » Logged
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