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Author Topic: 20-30 MP: Backs or DSLR ?  (Read 10388 times)
vandevanterSH
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« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2010, 10:39:54 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
No worries no one can harsh my morning on any forum. I was just making a point and BTW if you do find a cure for breast and lung cancer let me know . It would save my wife a third surgery Monday morning from having half her lung removed.

OT (and really none of my business) but I had similar surgery two years ago....If the Drs don't suggest it,  ask if she is a candidate for an "epidural" catheter for post-operative pain management.  It can make a big difference in comfort and activity after surgery.

Steve
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2010, 11:23:55 PM »
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Quote from: BartvanderWolf
Hi Guy,

Are you suggesting that aliasing is less of an issue on MF, or that since there are fewer images produced with MF the issue is less frequently encountered? I have difficulty understanding what you are actually saying.

It seems fair to think that MF users have higher skills that enable them to deal with moire when it shows up? Besides B2B type of support can also help control potential issues.

Cheers,
Bernard

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A few images online here!
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2010, 12:16:53 AM »
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Actually with the P40+ it seems be much less of a issue than it was with the P25+ which was a bear to deal with in regards to Moire. Loved that back but Moire and the 9 micron sensors are problematic with Moire. Not a back I would recommend for fashion or people work. The newer 6 micron sensors it is even better than the H39/ P45+/P30+ and backs with 6.8 micron sensors. Honestly I have yet to have moire in normal shooting with the P40+ but that maybe just luck at this time . I know it will as I have seen it in tests.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2010, 12:44:26 AM »
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I have a 22mp+hassy and a nikon D3 (not X) and a 5d2

If photography is a journey between subject and photographer via the camera the nikon gives the best ride by far

Ergonomics, handling AF, ISO

To me the D3 is the greatest portrait camera because it creates no barriers it is the first (Digital) camera I have ever trusted and felt at one with.

but the D3 is cr4p with flash on a sunny day and my (1990s)  nikkor lenses distort in a way the would make the architectural photogs queasy

The fact that Im still happy with those 1990 nikkors shows how much my clients care about a little wonk in a line

I think a  three zoom nikkor kit 14-24 , 24-70, 70-200 would be great small light and lower the barriers even more

I have been virtually affixed to my nikon since the day it arrived must be 200k frames - no issues - and i dont shoot a lot of frames

The other day I grabbed my mates D2x to photograph them on their birthday for fun - I was appalled by everything about it and can see my wisdom of buying the blad in that 2005 climate

Products in the studio

my 5d2 gets chosen because is has a file better than the D3 and LIVE VIEW and ZOOMING live view are the best tools in the studio

occasionally the 7d gets used for small products because of the small sensor giving us more DOF to represent the product better

We get best studio performance with even older MF nikkors on the canons BTW

The Hasselblad ?

Just doesnt fit into any of my low to mid level commercial work at all - basically my clients are too impatient - budgets too stretched - 'good enough' is good enough and those DSLR cameras do it all and do it fast, reliably and repeatably

But looking at the files my 2005 blad just rips the other cameras apart at a low ISO - modern backs must be amazing on that front also the creamy focus just looks more right than a DSLR at F2.8 or F2

S
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:53:35 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
fredjeang
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« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2010, 02:32:28 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
No worries no one can harsh my morning on any forum. I was just making a point and BTW if you do find a cure for breast and lung cancer let me know . It would save my wife a third surgery Monday morning from having half her lung removed.

I Wish you both the best in that process.

I'll just add something from my experience about the post-recovery.
In delicate situations, establishing a goal can be decisive in the recovering process. I've seen it many times, and that's how it works:
What's the patient likes most, or dream to do? If for example the person would have loved to visit Paris but never did, planning such a trip
after the surgery has very good effects on the recovery.

I had a severe motocycle accident many years ago, and the doctors told me that I will have other surgery with metal inserts in my leg, and that I'll
probably will never recuperate the fully functionality of my legs.
But my inner speach was very different. On the worst part, I decided to go moutain climbing in the Pyrenées (moutains in France) with only one leg
working. I had a goal, something I beleived I had to acheive and did it.
After a month, I recover the all functionality of my leg. No more surgery was needed.
When the head hospital doctor asked me about that I explained the story, he looked at me very seriously and keep silent for awhile.
Then he said: Son, you have done the right thing, but we can not say it because if it goes bad we'd be on trial.
Mind (and state of mind), is the key that drives the body. I have no doubts about it now.

Best luck.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 02:33:11 AM by fredjeang » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2010, 04:16:47 AM »
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Back into the thread, I think that these are exciting times in the sense that my thread entry would have just been impossible not a long time ago.
There are mouvements in the market place with high-end gear.

1 year ago, a MF back was out of my possibilities, now it is there. And DSLRs don't stop improoving so many aspects come into consideration.

That's why I asked for example in another thread about these backs in extreme outdoor conditions.

The forum is a good place for getting informations. I can, and have to, try any gear I'm interested in, but what can not be done in a few hours or days is daily experience.
In my understanding, there is sometimes a big difference when it comes to real world, I mean daily work with some equipment, and that is were the forum shines IMO: field experience.

A great thanks to all of you for sharing your field's experiences.

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N Walker
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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2010, 04:51:19 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,

I woud not like this thread to be seen as another war 35mm vs MF.

As there are more and more "vintage" digital backs circulating in the market at more reasonable prices, I'm asking myself this simple question:

If speed is not required, will a 22MP back be a better option in terms of IQ than a 20+ MP FF DSLR?

Is the fact that there is less pixel-density, no AA filter, in the MF backs crucial? and are you truly able to make a clear difference between a file from a FF dslr and a same resolution MF back?

Thank you.

On a monitor, yes, in print the differences are negligible between a high end DSLR and MF up to certain print sizes. A reminder - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

The content is more important than the tool when you are comparing the likes of a high grade DSLR to a MF format back in print.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2010, 05:02:44 AM »
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Quote from: Nick Walker
On a monitor, yes, in print the differences are negligible between a high end DSLR and MF up to certain print sizes. A reminder - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

The content is more important than the tool when you are comparing the likes of a high grade DSLR to a MF format back in print.
Yes Nick,

I think this topic was the very best real atomic bomb ever released by Michael since Lu-La exists.

I knew it will show up at one point or another.

I think that Michael likes teasing, provocating from time to time and give him the luxury to contradict himself.
That's fine, free people do that.

Now, to what extend this can be taken really seriously is another story.

I'm sorry but the G10, despite being good for what it is, is everything except a serious photographic tool.
Files are the same than any point and shoot: horrible!
Can you make a decent print with it? I certainly beleive so, as I pointed before, I managed to do decent huge enlargements with a LOMO Lubitel 6x6.
You know what that is, when the Russian used to do cheap plastic MF cameras? They could do it worsed than any other industry... but they worked miraculously...in the center frame

If you ever drive a 80's Skoda, you'll understand. Yes, the Skoda could drives you to one point to another, like a Chevy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 05:05:22 AM by fredjeang » Logged
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2010, 05:10:40 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Actually with the P40+ it seems be much less of a issue than it was with the P25+ which was a bear to deal with in regards to Moire. Loved that back but Moire and the 9 micron sensors are problematic with Moire. Not a back I would recommend for fashion or people work. The newer 6 micron sensors it is even better than the H39/ P45+/P30+ and backs with 6.8 micron sensors. Honestly I have yet to have moire in normal shooting with the P40+ but that maybe just luck at this time . I know it will as I have seen it in tests.

Hi Guy,

There are several explanations for your observations. The larger the physical sensels are, the more likely they are to produce aliasing (under otherwise similar circumstanses). That is caused by the fact that there are more fine details, high spatial frequencies, that cannot be reliably resolved by such large pitch sensor arrays. As the sensel pitch gets smaller, it will allow to resolve fine detail which thus cannot contribute to aliasing. What's more, as the sensel pitch gets smaller, the lens will start to act a bit more like an AA-filter, and diffraction becomes visible at the pixel level at relatively wider apertures.

Another factor that actually helps MF to reduce the sensitivity to creating aliasing artfacts, is the reduced DOF compared to smaller sensor arrays. Defocus is an effective countermeasure to suppress aliasing.

Cheers,
Bart
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2010, 05:50:19 AM »
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Quote from: BartvanderWolf
I'll repeat it once more, Aliasing is no good, but for larger sensor arrays one is stuck with the issue (just ask someone involved in shooting fabrics, or masonry, combed hair, or other periodically repetitive structured materials and lines, at an angle).

Looking at blacks fonts on a white screen with or without anti-aliasing in PS is a simple way to validate this. Anti-aliasing is considered to be a major progress in display...

Things get worse with imaging sensors because of the interpolation from the Bayer filter.

But anyway, in the end it is a matter of like or dislike.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
fredjeang
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2010, 06:11:44 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Looking at blacks fonts on a white screen with or without anti-aliasing in PS is a simple way to validate this. Anti-aliasing is considered to be a major progress in display...

Things get worse with imaging sensors because of the interpolation from the Bayer filter.

But anyway, in the end it is a matter of like or dislike.

Cheers,
Bernard
Yes.
You know, more I'm back on to photography and work with it, more I tend to go towards 2 extremes step by step.

I seriously plan to do street photography with a LF camera + back in the future. Not kidding.
I'm completely "alergic" to these micro formats fashionable cameras.

On the other hand, I miss more break designs than digital is allowing. I'm very interested in displaying images in other supports than papers,
I do beleive that the future will be without paper, and in a 3D spacial environment. Will save trees anyway.

I think in terms of IQ, "low res" backs and high-end dslr will merge in the close future. Then, it is more a matter of,
do I need flexibility? speed? etc...

The Pentax 645 will be in Spain in August at 7000 euros. Very very tempting offer, (will probably kill the S2) but it has no back and will be slower
,bigger, heavier etc...than any FF Dslr.
No way the investment could be used in LF-view cameras gear or other body. The Pentax crazyness when it shows up, seems to me today a less interesting proposal, in the current context.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:18:28 AM by fredjeang » Logged
N Walker
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2010, 06:13:44 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Yes Nick,

I think this topic was the very best real atomic bomb ever released by Michael since Lu-La exists.

I knew it will show up at one point or another.

I think that Michael likes teasing, provocating from time to time and give him the luxury to contradict himself.
That's fine, free people do that.

Now, to what extend this can be taken really seriously is another story.

I'm sorry but the G10, despite being good for what it is, is everything except a serious photographic tool.
Files are the same than any point and shoot: horrible!
Can you make a decent print with it? I certainly beleive so, as I pointed before, I managed to do decent huge enlargements with a LOMO Lubitel 6x6.
You know what that is, when the Russian used to do cheap plastic MF cameras? They could do it worsed than any other industry... but they worked miraculously...in the center frame

If you ever drive a 80's Skoda, you'll understand. Yes, the Skoda could drives you to one point to another, like a Chevy.

The reasoning for my link - if a lowly G10 sensor (over pixel crammed camera) can do vastly better than anticipated in print against a MF back, the gap will be further narrowed between a top grade DSLR and MF back - though only up to certain print sizes. I don't own a compact digital camera and use D3S and D3X cameras. As a professional sports photographer I am spoilt, being armed with a choice of 12 - 24 MP quality to cover different client's needs. Quality that I could have only dreamt of many years ago. Excellent optics, RAW software and processing skills are key to getting the best from any format. Although I use top grade zooms for portability, a prime lens looks as if software sharpening has been applied, in comparison to a top grade zoom lens, at wide or near wide open apertures.

Some additional information

James Russell http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/

Melvin Sokolsky http://www.sokolsky.com/

In the 'past' both photographer's reported it is difficult to tell the difference between an EOS 1DS MKI and H25 camera 'in print'  There are many other photographer's who have reported similar findings. They have far more experience than me with MF as I have only tested an H25 against a 16 MP DSLR.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:24:12 AM by Nick Walker » Logged

fredjeang
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2010, 06:25:25 AM »
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Quote from: Nick Walker
The reasoning for my link - if a lowly G10 sensor (over pixel crammed camera) can do vastly better than anticipated in print against a MF back, the gap will be further narrowed between a top grade DSLR and MF back - though only up to certain print sizes. I don't own a compact digital camera and use D3S and D3X cameras. As a professional sports photographer I am spoilt, being armed with a choice of 12 - 24 MP quality to cover different client's needs. Quality that I could have only dreamt of many years ago. Excellent optics, RAW software and processing skills are key to getting the best from any format. Although I use top grade zooms for portability, a prime lens looks as if software sharpening has been applied in comparison to a top grade zoom lens at wide or near wide open apertures.

Some additional information

James Russell http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/

Melvin Sokolsky http://www.sokolsky.com/

In the 'past' both photographer's reported it is difficult to tell the difference between an EOS 1DS MKI and H25 camera 'in print'  There are many other photographer's who have reported similar findings. They have far more experience than me with MF as I have only tested an H25 against a 16 MP DSLR.
Am I dreaming or the Russell website changed?

Well this new version is much better designed and I'm very happy to see that we have now an option to choose HTML galleries.
That's another user experience!
Now, I can view the James work instantanously. What a change!!!

They finally did it. And did it well.

Edit: I checked, in fact the link that provides BC in his posts is the same as before. Did not know the "group" version, wich is much faster and plaisant IMHO.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 07:32:00 AM by fredjeang » Logged
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2010, 07:23:11 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
But anyway, in the end it is a matter of like or dislike.

Hi Bernhard,

There is little to like about aliasing artifacts ...
I hope you don't run into challenging subjects, customers usually don't pay for your postprocessing attempts and time needed to rectify.

Cheers,
Bart.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2010, 02:05:34 PM »
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While we are talking about old digibacks...

If you wanted a high quality small file (for rapid stacking for regular macro work) an old low-res multi-shot digiback would be a good choice would it? and which one?
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2010, 05:05:35 PM »
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Quote from: BartvanderWolf
Hi Bernhard,

There is little to like about aliasing artifacts ...
I hope you don't run into challenging subjects, customers usually don't pay for your postprocessing attempts and time needed to rectify.

Sure, there is little to like about artifacts, but it would seem that many folks love the feel of sharpness that they get when looking at some of those files.

I personnally prefer by far the look of a well sharpened image coming from a sensor equiped with a well designed AA filter.

Cheers,
Bernard

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fredjeang
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2010, 02:07:20 AM »
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What surprises me is the division that always emerge between both systems.
I think that the dilema occurs when the budget is limited and one has to choose in a way or another.
That is where choice sometimes maybe be rough, because it is like: "if you had to be on a desert island with just one gear".

But most of users here actually own both systems, and indeed that's the ideal situation: using a dslr and the back for what they are best at, according to the situation.

In the Dslr users, like Bernard, I don't know if the Pentax offer will actually be a sort of compromise between what they like from the dslr design and the goodies of MF. Would they buy such a camera compare to their Nikons ? With the new lens investment that suppose etc...
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Rob C
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2010, 03:05:50 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Am I dreaming or the Russell website changed?

Well this new version is much better designed and I'm very happy to see that we have now an option to choose HTML galleries.
That's another user experience!
Now, I can view the James work instantanously. What a change!!!

They finally did it. And did it well.

Edit: I checked, in fact the link that provides BC in his posts is the same as before. Did not know the "group" version, wich is much faster and plaisant IMHO.


Hi Fred

Russell website.

Yes, I think it has some very lovely pictures on show, my favourite is in the Fashion Gallery, 17th row extreme right. It's a shot of a girl lying across a couch. She is wearing what looks like a beaded mask, orange stockings and yellow gloves and has a green bag by her side. For some reason I think digi Leica M because it reminds me of shots once shown to represent his work with that camera.

Beautiful use of lights... dream on, Rob C, now you know why you concentrated on beaches!

As an aside, my first attempt with weebly got me the rows of small images, but no way of clicking on them to make a single, larger picture. From your understanding of the weebly freebie product, is that because you have to upgrade to the paying level to buy that facility? Or is it just I don't now how to get there yet?

;-)

Rob C
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fredjeang
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2010, 03:13:37 AM »
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Quote from: Rob C
Hi Fred

Russell website.

Yes, I think it has some very lovely pictures on show, my favourite is in the Fashion Gallery, 17th row extreme right. It's a shot of a girl lying across a couch. She is wearing what looks like a beaded mask, orange stockings and yellow gloves and has a green bag by her side. For some reason I think digi Leica M because it reminds me of shots once shown to represent his work with that camera.

Beautiful use of lights... dream on, Rob C, now you know why you concentrated on beaches!

As an aside, my first attempt with weebly got me the rows of small images, but no way of clicking on them to make a single, larger picture. From your understanding of the weebly freebie product, is that because you have to upgrade to the paying level to buy that facility? Or is it just I don't now how to get there yet?

;-)

Rob C
Hi Rob.

In weebly platform, the "image" is just a single image and for a gallery that's not the correct tool.
You have to go in: "multimedia" and choose "photo gallery". It is the right tool.

I'll write to you in your mail here and explain in more details the trick.

Cheers.

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