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Author Topic: what the hell is happening?  (Read 9998 times)
fredjeang
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« on: May 15, 2010, 03:31:21 AM »
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I'm worried.

What is happening to ( a part of ? ) professional photography?
[attachment=21995:302.jpg]

Many doubts and questions are emerging in my mind since I joined this forum.

I see very experienced, word class studios, famous photographers talking about their working environment
and the image I have in my mind is like the one I attached here.

For example, at the beginning when I was reading the BC's posts about tethering, softwares etc...
I really thought he was exagerating the all panorama, like if it was a kind of idiosyncrasy of his peculiar personality,
or that he was overstressed by too much work.
But more I read this forum, more I realise that the BC's posts (and others) are actually describing accuratly the
current situation.

It is a bit scarry to see that at this level of pro, the pressure now seems to be really a big deal.
I don't remember in film age that things where happening in such a way.
Photographers were having fun, now it seems that they paddle 15 hours a day each time for less incomes and more pressure.
What the hell is happening in this profession and in the industry in general?

Remember the Bcooter, Gwhitf, Pschefz, Rob, Tmark's posts and many more and the overall sensation is quite depressing to be honest.
I'm not talking about the inner creativity, but about the changes that have, and are happening in this part of the professional photography
since digital showed-up.

I thought that a respected an established photographer, could at least have owned the privilege to have certain "rights", at least
peace of mind, but your regular posts here are not describing such a situation.
Don't know what would think about all that Avedon in his rest, but it looks that we are far away from pleasures, fun, respect etc...

Some always describes the 60-70' as a golden age for the profession. I have to admit that many times I thought that was
more looking with nostalgy to a remote ideal past and that the reality was not that bad, but my sensation now is changing.

Seems that video is also changing the all game and that you have to do it like it or not.

What the hell is happening?
Like this world is under cocaine and whatever name, experience, and genious you can have, you'll end like these people
on the attached picture.

Is the situation really that bad?



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KLaban
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 03:46:30 AM »
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I too am worried. What the hell is happening to the Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography Forum?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2010, 03:57:51 AM »
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Quote from: KLaban
I too am worried. What the hell is happening to the Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography Forum?
Klaban,

I think a debate about the changes and panorama of the craft is not out of forum. It may not please you but we are in a democracy and not all the threads will interest or please you I'm afraid.

You may find no sense to this, but I do. I put this thread here, because it is precisely here that I read the most about stress, speed, unstability etc...
I'm not saying that, but the professionals from this forum part yes are transmiting many times such situations.

Logically, I'd like to know what is happening.

Regards.
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KLaban
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2010, 04:20:44 AM »
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fredjeang, don't worry your head about pleasing me.

There is of course a time and a place for discussing these issues, or rather, there should be.

A coffee corner for working togs and or serial curmudgeons, perhaps? You could even call it 'The Luminous Landscape Professional Photography Forum'.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 04:29:16 AM by KLaban » Logged

fredjeang
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2010, 04:31:14 AM »
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Quote from: KLaban
fredjeang, don't worry your head about pleasing me.

There is of course a time and a place for discussing these issues, or rather, there should be.

A coffee corner for working togs and or serial curmudgeons, perhaps?
My first idea was to put that thread in the cofee corner, wich is more appropriate for these kind of debates.
But the forum where users are transmiting most the sensations I described in the OP is this one.

I'm interested to hear people experiences that are working in an high-end pro environment, and they are here
and probably won't even look into the coffee corner.

Strictly talking, my OP is out of forum in a way, not that much in another way.
So it's always a matter of choice.

I've read many times how BC points that the profession have changed completly in the last years, and
(but that's my interpretation) not specially in a friendlier way. Many more pointed the same fact.
I'd like to hear from them, having more informations about how they experienced these changes
and what's the reality now.
I don't think these questions are so useless and so much out of MF forum, IMO.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 05:02:13 AM by fredjeang » Logged
michele
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 05:05:31 AM »
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Well i think this is a very interesting thread! I feel the same about aour profession. I can speak about the situation here in Italy. I work mostly with adv agencies.
I think now there is a big nosense, the adv, the clients, the photographers and so on, don't know what to do. There is a lot of confusion, mainly from the internet. We are in the middle of a revolution, but i really don't know where this revolution is taking us. Video seems to be the future, but outside is full of people that do video as good as we do photographs and they are in bad situations too. A canon 7D is not going to resolve all the cost of a good video production. I'm learning video, but i'm a photographer, not a videomaker. I think one of the biggest problem is internet. Many clients tell me: " i want to invest in the internet". Ok, but how? Internet is a mess!!! You have to own a website, but you have to take people to your website, and make adv on internet is more expensive by far then magazine, newspaper and tv! Another point is the global crisis. Before the clients paid 10, now they have only 1 and there will always be somebody that will make the job for 1. Now, also the big adv and the big photographers are working for 1. So, you have to run faster in order to get the job. You have to take the photo, retouch it, run viedo, post, do everything in 6 hours and ask 0,5. And this is one way revolution, no coming back. Sad future for us...
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fredjeang
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 05:27:40 AM »
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Quote from: michele
Well i think this is a very interesting thread! I feel the same about aour profession. I can speak about the situation here in Italy. I work mostly with adv agencies.
I think now there is a big nosense, the adv, the clients, the photographers and so on, don't know what to do. There is a lot of confusion, mainly from the internet. We are in the middle of a revolution, but i really don't know where this revolution is taking us. Video seems to be the future, but outside is full of people that do video as good as we do photographs and they are in bad situations too. A canon 7D is not going to resolve all the cost of a good video production. I'm learning video, but i'm a photographer, not a videomaker. I think one of the biggest problem is internet. Many clients tell me: " i want to invest in the internet". Ok, but how? Internet is a mess!!! You have to own a website, but you have to take people to your website, and make adv on internet is more expensive by far then magazine, newspaper and tv! Another point is the global crisis. Before the clients paid 10, now they have only 1 and there will always be somebody that will make the job for 1. Now, also the big adv and the big photographers are working for 1. So, you have to run faster in order to get the job. You have to take the photo, retouch it, run viedo, post, do everything in 6 hours and ask 0,5. And this is one way revolution, no coming back. Sad future for us...
Well, the situation you describes is very similar here.
What catch my attention as you point, is that photographers are starting to get really hard times, but video-makers as well. In the recent months, I know some important adv agencies that have fired 80% of the staff. Creatives, designers, AD etc...all these are now on the street market ready to work for much less as free-lance.
But the important agencies also are cutting their prices down. It looks that they ask for more skills, more professionalism but much much less payed.

Michael Reichmann was pointing that convergence (photo-video) will be the clew, but I have the sensation that there are many more factors that are involved and as you point, the future seems pretty dark. Maybe it's new way of doing, thinking etc...
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KLaban
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 05:36:32 AM »
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Quote from: michele
Well i think this is a very interesting thread!

I'm not denying this is an interesting subject; I'd just like to see a dedicated place where issues pertaining to professional photography practices can be discussed and archived rather than having them buried here.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2010, 05:39:22 AM »
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Quote from: KLaban
I'm not denying this is an interesting subject; I'd just like to see a dedicated place where issues pertaining to professional photography practices can be discussed and archived rather than having them buried here.
This has been asked several times in Lu-La since I joined. It seems that it lacks a special forum dedicated to what you just pointed.
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michele
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2010, 05:43:43 AM »
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Fred, you are absolutely right! Perhaps this is the situation here in Europe. Maybe in America is different. But, look, i also work as retoucher. 95% of my work is Photoshop. If i did'nt use photoshop noboby would call me. right now i'm working on an image that comes from imagebank; will be a beautiful adv and the photo was taken with a Sony DSC-N2. I don't even know wich kind of camera this is. For now i'm not going to cut my prices. I'm 25, just started this job 2 years ago, every month i push up my prices. We have to chin up, if we can do the job for 1 now, tomorrow we will can't do the samo for 10
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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 05:59:19 AM »
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Quote from: michele
Fred, you are absolutely right! Perhaps this is the situation here in Europe. Maybe in America is different. But, look, i also work as retoucher. 95% of my work is Photoshop. If i did'nt use photoshop noboby would call me. right now i'm working on an image that comes from imagebank; will be a beautiful adv and the photo was taken with a Sony DSC-N2. I don't even know wich kind of camera this is. For now i'm not going to cut my prices. I'm 25, just started this job 2 years ago, every month i push up my prices. We have to chin up, if we can do the job for 1 now, tomorrow we will can't do the samo for 10
I agree, that's my philosophy too.

But what caught my attention a lot recently here, is that very well established pros are having very stressed time too. I mean, it just does not happen only in our lower levels.

When you think about it it's non sense. Super pros who have been working all their life with their guts, as Guy pointed somewhere else, tons of experience, skill etc...completly stressed by AD or so and under pressure for less and less incomes? If this is not a mad world how to call it then.

I mean, if I'm a young and inexperienced photographer and want to make myself a place, such a level of stress is understandable. But I have a lot of problem to understand that on top level pros.

The thing is that ADs (at least the one that I've been meeting so far here), are each time younger, inexperienced and proportionally arrogants. Don't know how is the situation in the US, but really things are changing, and they are changing fast.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 05:59:56 AM by fredjeang » Logged
ced
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 06:03:34 AM »
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Modern Times as depicted by Charlie Chaplin is finally catching everyone napping.
A few years ago the first macs put typographers out of work that put type setters out of work and so on.
Like scanner operators were put out of work by digital cameras etc. etc.
Every tom, dick and harry has a camera and the people that run the ad agencies know near nothing anymore and think all images can be found in the image banks.
I think you have to adjust your business and do more of a varied mix of photography, video including 3D etc.
Some times you have to drop the price to keep the wheels turning and be in the face of the people who have the work to give out.
Be fast but above all the best in your area and you will manage in the end. Good Luck!   Happy Rowing!
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feppe
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Oh this shows up in here!


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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 06:03:57 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
This has been asked several times in Lu-La since I joined. It seems that it lacks a special forum dedicated to what you just pointed.

The dedicated forum is right here.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2010, 06:14:47 AM »
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Quote from: feppe
The dedicated forum is right here.
No Sir. The majority of the people that are concerned by this thread do not read neither are active in the coffe corner.
I've decided to put this thread here for reasons that I considered oportunes, and the only one who have the hability to decide are the
administrators. If they decide that this thread should be closed or moved because out of the right forum, I'll accept their decisions.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 06:16:54 AM by fredjeang » Logged
jotloob
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2010, 06:43:51 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
I'm worried.

What is happening to ( a part of ? ) professional photography?
[attachment=21995:302.jpg]

Many doubts and questions are emerging in my mind since I joined this forum.

I see very experienced, word class studios, famous photographers talking about their working environment
and the image I have in my mind is like the one I attached here.

For example, at the beginning when I was reading the BC's posts about tethering, softwares etc...
I really thought he was exagerating the all panorama, like if it was a kind of idiosyncrasy of his peculiar personality,
or that he was overstressed by too much work.
But more I read this forum, more I realise that the BC's posts (and others) are actually describing accuratly the
current situation.

It is a bit scarry to see that at this level of pro, the pressure now seems to be really a big deal.
I don't remember in film age that things where happening in such a way.
Photographers were having fun, now it seems that they paddle 15 hours a day each time for less incomes and more pressure.
What the hell is happening in this profession and in the industry in general?

Remember the Bcooter, Gwhitf, Pschefz, Rob, Tmark's posts and many more and the overall sensation is quite depressing to be honest.
I'm not talking about the inner creativity, but about the changes that have, and are happening in this part of the professional photography
since digital showed-up.

I thought that a respected an established photographer, could at least have owned the privilege to have certain "rights", at least
peace of mind, but your regular posts here are not describing such a situation.
Don't know what would think about all that Avedon in his rest, but it looks that we are far away from pleasures, fun, respect etc...

Some always describes the 60-70' as a golden age for the profession. I have to admit that many times I thought that was
more looking with nostalgy to a remote ideal past and that the reality was not that bad, but my sensation now is changing.

Seems that video is also changing the all game and that you have to do it like it or not.

What the hell is happening?
Like this world is under cocaine and whatever name, experience, and genious you can have, you'll end like these people
on the attached picture.

Is the situation really that bad?


Yes , I do believe , that it is even worse ! ! !

I recently read an interview in the german magazine PROFIFOTO about exactly the topic which is given here in this thread.
The interview was with Rene Staud from the Rene Staud Studios here in Germany .
Rene Staud is a world well known professional car photographer . I know him personally and I believe , that he is always ahead of the current situation in his mind and his work .
Unfortunately , the interview is in german language only and I feel unable to translate .

But the excerpt of that interview is , CGI is "ante portas" . CGI is not new , but will develop very fast .
ADOBE is working on that topic as well .
CGI stands for Computer Generated Imaging . That will make many photographers jobs obsolete but also create new jobs with tasks we do not properly know yet .
It also will have effects on camera development and production including digital gear .
It will not happen tomorrow , but if you look at the speed of the development of digital photo gear for the last five or six years , then you can imagine CGI is not far away from today .

Jürgen

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Jürgen
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2010, 07:00:40 AM »
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I don't think this is anomaly just for our "Photography Business", but this happens to ALL businesses. Everything evolves, what is a need, want & a perfect business model, changes & is no longer exists. Don't get me wrong the need & want still will be there but it will be supplied by a different more efficient, economical source, who ever is the leader of the pack will be tomorrow's Apple, Nike... It used to be a business/skill set could survive multi generations, then it became one generation life span & now in one's life time one probably will have to change more then once their service field & thus modus operandi. World is moving rather fast & responding/adopting quickly.
  And that is life. Exactly like original photo of Charlton Heston conveys, paddle faster, if not someone else will take your place.... so they too can go around in circles. Yes, this is subject for a Cappuccino Corner...Capiche!!! I do sympathise with your P.O.V
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 09:25:55 AM by SeanBK » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2010, 07:42:04 AM »
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Quote from: SeanBK
I don't think this is anomaly just for our "Photography Business", but this happens to ALL businesses. Everything evolves, what is a need, want & a perfect business model, changes & is no longer exists. Don't get me wrong the need & want still will be there but it will be supplied by a different more efficient, economical source, who ever is the leader of the pack will be tomorrow's Apple, Nike... It used to be a business/skill set could survive multi generations, then it became one generation life span & now in one's life time one probably will have to change more then once their service field & thus modus operandi. World is moving rather fast & responding/adopting quickly.
  And that is life. Exactly like original photo of Charlton Heston conveys, paddle faster, if not someone else will take your place.... so they too can go around it circles. Yes, this is subject for a Cappuccino Corner...Capiche!!! I do sympathise with your P.O.V
Yes and no.

I totally agree with Klaban: it lacks a dedicated section to professional photography.
The thing is, as I said before, my first idea was to put that thread in the coffee corner.

But my OP is aimed towards high-end or very experienced pro daily rutine. How they actually live these changes in their work and what are the consequences, their vision etc...
By the way, it is their regular posts that I read here that made me writte this topic, because they express their concerns. If I read these concerns here, it is logical that I asked the question here. Everyone is invited of course, but it results that, despite being a general topic, I wanted to have also these photographers opinions, and we know more or less who they are, and I rarelly saw them, if never in the coffee corner.

If you want to know what the daily rutine of the fisherman is, you have to ask the fisherman, and for that, you have to ask where the right boat is.
even if they told you that the port is located in another place.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 07:51:53 AM by fredjeang » Logged
PdF
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2010, 08:00:49 AM »
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I agree with the general feeling of incomprehension and doubt. What is the future of the high-level professionnal photography ? Nobody knows it. The costs of the professionnal high-end material is more and more expansive. And there is no more place to take time to work with the beter aspirations to the quality. We have to work faster and faster, in bigger and bigger quantities, by forgetting the quality. Because the depreciation of the equipement became impossible.

The place to speak about it is convenient. Where to find a place where discuss professional photographers?

PdF

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PdF
fredjeang
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2010, 08:18:29 AM »
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Maybe this profession would need a sort of international organism that fight for their rights (and duty).
It does exists for plane pilots, doctors etc...
Why not?
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fredjeang
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2010, 10:18:48 AM »
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Great! they created a sub-forum dedicated!!
Many Thanks
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