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Author Topic: Phase One acquires Expression Media (formerly iView Media)  (Read 5928 times)
Steve Hendrix
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« on: May 25, 2010, 08:27:02 AM »
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Press release for Phase One's acquisition of Expression Media from Microsoft.

http://www.phaseone.com/~/media/Phase%20On...%20Release.ashx

I think this is good news all around, for iView Media/Expressions Media users, and for Capture One users. For existing Capture One users (through today I assume, but will get confirmation), it is free. For new users, it is 199/149 USD/Euro. More details will follow.


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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 08:32:52 AM »
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Sounds like a sound idea actually. Looks like maybe phase is thinking library type setup ala LR, Aperture. Big guess here
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 10:55:56 AM »
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Interesting news! I used to use this before Microsoft messed it up.  Hopefully phase will bring it back up to snuff.
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 11:53:10 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Sounds like a sound idea actually. Looks like maybe phase is thinking library type setup ala LR, Aperture. Big guess here


Actually in my view  your 100% wrong.  Phase has a lightroom/Apeture program for processing called C-1 and there is no reason to integrate I-view and C-1 into one heavy program.  

I-view/Expression Media is the one software I use daily, well other than whatever software runs an Iphone and it seemed that Microsoft was removing i-view/expression media from their expression studio line up though I don't think anybody knows what expression studio is or does.

Anyway, I'm glad somebody bought I-view/Expression Media and hope they make some changes.    

If anyone from Phase One is listening here are my thoughts and even if they are listening, none of us will know it.  Anyway.

1.  Customizable Type faces and sizes for web galleries, -see web pics

2.  Click on center of larger image to move forward rather than to have to go to small icons (see web pics)

3.  More modern templates that work for what photographers do.  (see any graphic designer or just copy the Hasselblad website.)  That's a pretty and simple interface.

4.  Combine same file number of jpeg and raw to one photo (see photo mechanic).

5.  keep the select drag and drop for organization.  This allows us to shoot different cameras, group them in sessions, rename to a master list and go from there.

6.  Read all photoshop files.  PSD's with layers should read as one image not a yellow where'd it go background.

7.  More stability with the Apple platform.  Not that it was that stable with Windows, but I-view WAS stable with mac before Microsoft go a hold of it.   Maybe just hanging around Microsoft for a few years makes everyone crash into a tree.

8.  More real interactivity with video files.  For some reason in the I'view catalog you could insert and play video in the catalog, but now in Expression Media 2 you can see the video, put it on the web by building a gallery and play it through html, but not in the catalog, (where it will play) but on some macs, maybe all of them you can't play the video in the catalog.  Get with it.   Video is a function of our lives and while your at it allow the video time line to be moved to set a poster frame so the html icon is what you want the client to see.  (This will save hours of post production time).

9.  Think of the future, not the past.   The video/stills/sound files all into one catalog and one html document is great, especially for pre production, but think about turning this into an Iphone, Ipad app that actually downloads the gallery to the device, rather than wait for AT+T's slow (very slow) 3G network to read it and only hold it in a cache for a few minutes.

10.  Don't dumb it down for the masses.  If you want make a streamlined version called I-View Stupid or I-view Lite so people can load their 5d jpegs and make slide shows, but continue on with a professional version, with professional use and please included EVERY camera raw file for sorting.

Right now were working on a project and i want to put the conceptual and production information on an Ipad.  I can do this with links to the web, but it's not an app and it's not actually downloaded to the Ipad, where it will play without some form of wi-fi, 3g connection.   Try standing in a conference room with an Ipad and waiting for a video or even a small html document to load on AT+T's 3G network.

IMO

BC

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 03:23:18 PM »
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C1 rocks for micro-managing one project at a time. However, it has generally ignored cataloging/image-management tools for anything beyond the single-shoot level. Clearly that's what this acquisition is about.

I would caution however that these sorts of acquisitions often take a while to show their full fruits. If you expect that throwing a Phase One sticker on it makes it a perfectly integrated workflow overnight you will be disappointed. I've tried in the past to use iView / Expression Media. I was impressed by some of the workflow tools and an absolute focus on speed and effeciency for professional users. But frankly I was greatly let down by the lack of integration with Capture One in general and lackluster support for Phase One Raw files.

I suspect however that Phase One will make very good use of the code-base of EM to create a truly powerful two program solution.

I strongly suspect that they will remain two programs for two reasons:
1) It's much easier from a technical point of view to INTEGRATE two programs than to COMBINE them. Reading each others metadata / adjustments / cache files and adding commands in each program to call the other would make a huge difference in workflow speed and power.
2) I think that there are many reasons why, workflow wise, it's better to have one program for cataloging and macro-management and another program for tethering/editing/adjusting/processing and micro-management. Programs that try to do everything rarely do anything really well. Look at Adobe's Creative Suite: if I wiped out your memory of how they do it (which becomes in a way the only way imaginable) you might think it would be better to have one program which combined the general image editing of Photoshop with the raw processing and cataloging of Lightroom with the Movie Editing of Premier and the Video FX of After Effects. But really the way they have it set up as separate programs tailored to each function and with tight integration for sharing between programs works really well.

Always good to see another example of the health of Phase One's cash flow when so many (especially on forums) are so gloom-and-doom. Purchasing Mamiya, Leaf, and Expression Media shows financial stability and an ability and desire to invest in the future.

If nothing else maybe this will mean faster batch renaming!

Doug Peterson
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
If anyone from Phase One is listening here are my thoughts and even if they are listening, none of us will know it.  Anyway.
1.  Customizable Type faces and sizes for web galleries, see web pics
[...]

Hey now :-P.

I could dig up a long list dozens of meaningful improvements to Capture One that were specifically requested on this forum. We (Capture Integration) maintain a list which we update every few months of requests and complaints about Capture One and have seen the majority of these implemented. There are still things on our list (I suspect there always will be). But it's very hard to find that level of responsiveness anywhere else.

I strongly suspect we will find the same level of responsiveness as Phase One takes Expression Media and moves it forward. Do keep in mind as I stated above that after an acquisition it takes some time to make your first big release. So this won't happen tomorrow.

So accordingly...

PLEASE post what you like and dislike about Expression Media (aka iView) and what you would like to see in the way of integration with Capture One and other programs.

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 03:44:09 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
PLEASE post what you like and dislike about Expression Media (aka iView) and what you would like to see in the way of integration with Capture One and other programs.

Doug,

Like MassiveCooter, I use Iview every day too. Can't say enough good things about it, for editing and making WebGalleries. I kept an old Installer, before MS got ahold of it, I think the version is 3.1, and I just install that again if I need it. It's blazing fast. I wrote some custom HTML web templates for my business and used a JPG header, since you can't spec fonts with it.

I don't know what MS did to it, but my advice is get my 3.1 installer and start there with the improvements.

I'll leave off the part about investing in software, instead of a new case and LCD for their digital backs, as they look to the future, which, according to the quality of their LCD, is about 1986.

Signed,

Doom 'n Gloom
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bcooter
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 05:09:56 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Hey now :-P.

I could dig up a long list dozens of meaningful improvements to Capture One that were specifically requested on this forum. We (Capture Integration) maintain a list which we update every few months of requests and complaints about Capture One and have seen the majority of these implemented. There are still things on our list (I suspect there always will be). But it's very hard to find that level of responsiveness anywhere else.

I strongly suspect we will find the same level of responsiveness as Phase One takes Expression Media and moves it forward. Do keep in mind as I stated above that after an acquisition it takes some time to make your first big release. So this won't happen tomorrow.

So accordingly...

PLEASE post what you like and dislike about Expression Media (aka iView) and what you would like to see in the way of integration with Capture One and other programs.

Doug,

Last time I looked I thought you worked for Capture Integration and sold Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More.  (did I get that right?)

I know your tight with the viking hat boys, but I didn't say your company's name I said Phase One.

Now as far as I-view, just tell those guys to make it work and kinda leave it alone.  It does integrate with Phase One, actually you can set preferences and click on an Icon and send an image to any program.  The thing is the Phase one out of camera  preview is so crappy, it doesn't show up very well in I-view.

I'm glad the phase boys bought it, hope hope they don't make it I-view version 4/5 and just add some of the changes that could make all of our lives a little easier, but use it yes, like Mr. Griwtifhfhfw (I can never spell that name) I've used it a billion times.

And like Gwtififhwf, I'd kind of scale back on that moving forward/profitability talk, cause by the time Phase has an lcd that is recognizable, Hasselblad will have a 5" lcd, Pentax will have a 3d, 7" monitor glued on that camera and Canon will have created artificial life.

BC
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 05:20:17 PM »
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I really liked the web gallery concept in Iview, I started using it right before MS bought them and really like the custom galleries but had a major problem with it viewing  on Mac and not pc. I stopped working with it and started using  
lightroom.  I know the galleries where user designed, but really want iview to help design galleries that worked. I would also like to see easy web galleries added to  C1 Pro.

Quote from: gwhitf
Doug,

Like MassiveCooter, I use Iview every day too. Can't say enough good things about it, for editing and making WebGalleries. I kept an old Installer, before MS got ahold of it, I think the version is 3.1, and I just install that again if I need it. It's blazing fast. I wrote some custom HTML web templates for my business and used a JPG header, since you can't spec fonts with it.

I don't know what MS did to it, but my advice is get my 3.1 installer and start there with the improvements.

I'll leave off the part about investing in software, instead of a new case and LCD for their digital backs, as they look to the future, which, according to the quality of their LCD, is about 1986.

Signed,

Doom 'n Gloom
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2010, 02:51:47 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
For existing Capture One users (through today I assume, but will get confirmation), it is free. For new users, it is 199/149 USD/Euro. More details will follow.

I got an e-mail from Phase One today, saying that Expressions was priced at $49 through June 4 to newsletter subscribers.  I use C1 - D rather than the all-camera version, and so perhaps I don't count as a C1 user.

Even so, it sounds like a decent deal.  I currently use IMatch, (as I am allergic to most MS stuff, despite running windows) but find it clunky.  Can anyone give a quick comparison with Expressions?

\\'alt


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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2010, 03:19:50 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
I suspect however that Phase One will make very good use of the code-base of EM to create a truly powerful two program solution.

I strongly suspect that they will remain two programs for two reasons:
1) It's much easier from a technical point of view to INTEGRATE two programs than to COMBINE them. Reading each others metadata / adjustments / cache files and adding commands in each program to call the other would make a huge difference in workflow speed and power.
2) I think that there are many reasons why, workflow wise, it's better to have one program for cataloging and macro-management and another program for tethering/editing/adjusting/processing and micro-management. Programs that try to do everything rarely do anything really well. Look at Adobe's Creative Suite: if I wiped out your memory of how they do it (which becomes in a way the only way imaginable) you might think it would be better to have one program which combined the general image editing of Photoshop with the raw processing and cataloging of Lightroom with the Movie Editing of Premier and the Video FX of After Effects. But really the way they have it set up as separate programs tailored to each function and with tight integration for sharing between programs works really well.


Doug Peterson
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Doug,

I'm very happy to hear that you will NOT merge both in a lightroom-style-package. IMO this would have been a mistake and I take your words with great satisfaction. I insist a lot on that point.

I'm also very happy to see that it has been expressed the video+stills+sound as a necessary requirement and I do beleive the next generation HTML will play an important role.

Talking about html, I'd like to see something really more powerfull, 100 script writable, but also some automatized task that could be directed from C1 but
done in Expression Media. The automatic task of creating jpegs previews from tethered in real time to a customizable size etc...

The web module in lightroom is not to a professional standart, on this I hope Phase will not mess (I'm sure they won't)
and will stay away from the consumer's products kind of limitations.

Then, I would like to see (as it is the case in Linux platform by the way...), 100% compatibility with Raw files AND all files with layers AND vectors as well.

Oh yes, I forgot to mentionned the hope that folders management will be more "germanic" than the Adobe's.

But very happy so far to hear from you that these two will not merge in one big software.

Regards.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 04:12:17 PM by fredjeang » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 04:42:15 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Oh yes, I forgot to mentionned the hope that folders management will be more "germanic" than the Adobe's.

I don't understand this point. Could you clarify?
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 05:14:44 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
Press release for Phase One's acquisition of Expression Media from Microsoft.

http://www.phaseone.com/~/media/Phase%20On...%20Release.ashx

I think this is good news all around, for iView Media/Expressions Media users, and for Capture One users. For existing Capture One users (through today I assume, but will get confirmation), it is free. For new users, it is 199/149 USD/Euro. More details will follow.

Smart move, well done. Now the real work starts.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 05:22:02 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Always good to see another example of the health of Phase One's cash flow when so many (especially on forums) are so gloom-and-doom. Purchasing Mamiya, Leaf, and Expression Media shows financial stability and an ability and desire to invest in the future.

I think that this is a great move. It does show that Phase Mgt understanding that software is a strategic line of products for them.

As a happy Capture One user I am looking forward to concrete developements.

Giving away Expression for free to existing C1 users is also a brilliant idea that will generate nearly automatically significant revenue in the future.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 11:47:59 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I think that this is a great move. It does show that Phase Mgt understanding that software is a strategic line of products for them.

As a happy Capture One user I am looking forward to concrete developements.

Giving away Expression for free to existing C1 users is also a brilliant idea that will generate nearly automatically significant revenue in the future.

Cheers,
Bernard


I've confirmed that anyone who is a Capture One Pro owner can download Expressions Media for free ($199 value) until June 30. You'll have to go through a check-out process (just make sure to add to cart the version that costs $0). You will have to enter a credit card number, but your total will be $0 charged. An activation email will then find its way to you.

I can't think of any reason to not do this (unless you just have no interest). I have my copy.  


Steve Hendrix
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 11:52:58 PM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

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fredjeang
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2010, 03:22:59 AM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
I don't understand this point. Could you clarify?
Yes, sorry.
 "germanic" is used here to qualify some robust, simple, rigorous and efficient system.

Lightroom in that aspect IMO is on the opposite side, more "latin" soul if I can say.

and I do think that it comes from the fact you mentionned before:
"Programs that try to do everything rarely do anything really well"
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2010, 05:46:17 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix
I've confirmed that anyone who is a Capture One Pro owner can download Expressions Media for free ($199 value) until June 30. You'll have to go through a check-out process (just make sure to add to cart the version that costs $0). You will have to enter a credit card number, but your total will be $0 charged. An activation email will then find its way to you.

I can't think of any reason to not do this (unless you just have no interest). I have my copy.

So do I.

Now deciding what DAM to commit your images to isn't as obvious.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2010, 09:38:06 PM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Lightroom in that aspect IMO is on the opposite side, more "latin" soul if I can say.

Hmm, yes. At the risk of perpetuating stereotypes, the Adobe LR catalog has always puzzeled me. It is so - ad hoc - in the worst sense of the word (for a data base tool where one expects integrity, reliability, repeatibility, etc.)

I had thought of trying to wrap LR with an Oracle/SQL Server type architecture that would allow you to "check out" files based on a more rigourously defined - and enforced - workflow. Deciding to code some files red or green one week, using keywords as the main access and sdearch method, fat fingers and all, then forgetting and using a totally differerent schema a week later - does not make for a a robust and reliable DAM over teh long term! I went to "one catalog, one job" as a work around, but that is inelegent at best given the inability to set many defaults for a new catalog in LR.

I'd be interested in what others think of trying to do some of that integration with Expression Media and C1 using external tools (scripts or a "helper" ap.)  I'll have a look at it with that in mind, but haven't used Expression before. I've used C1 and like it, but not actively doing much photo right now.

To be a little more specific, I'd be thinking of defrining and using multiple fields as "keys" - dates, subjects, etc. - with enforced naming conventions, not allowed to be blank, etc.  A common way to to that in many apps is to use a database table to populate a drop-down "pick list", along with various types of edits that are executed after making a choice to ensure valid - and meaningful - entries.  An additional level of sophistication would let you define a workflow that teh ap would then enfore: enter this value, save this, backup this subset here, copy files to  aworking directory, check out of the dataabase with a lock until checked back in, etc.

Anyway, just curious if others have worked through similar concepts with these systems.  I'll go do some research ...

Cheers!
Michael
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2010, 03:54:58 AM »
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If you think LR's database is Latin or ad hoc, I'm not sure what you're going to think about iView/EM's database. I should first say I'm a big fan of iView - in fact I announced Microsoft's acquisition in the UK when iView hired me for a presentation to a photo trade show which then happened to coincide with the deal. And while I'm a bit jaded after having been there before with Microsoft, I'm also glad that iView now seems to be in the hands of someone who wants it.

But back to the iView/EM database, its limit of 2Gb on the size of the database file was too small and iView - unlike Lightroom - made the mistake of storing its thumbnails and previews inside the catalogue file. That made the 2gb limit far too easy to reach, so users ever got near the iView database's technical limit of 128k records. By comparison I work with one guy whose LR catalogue exceeds 250k pictures.

OTOH, iView does have 16 user-definable custom fields. These, like other fields, can be supported by "vocabulary editor" files which are simply text files which provide a list of permissible entries. The feature, while useful, is quite primitive and you can't set the fields to be numbers, dates etc, or multi-value.

iView does have scripting available on both Apple and PC. Unfortunately there wasn't a cross platform scripting environment, so Apple and PC scripters weren't able to help eachother (unlike LR where most plug-ins work on all brands of computer).

By contrast, while I may also have my own criticisms of the Lightroom database organisation (I used to work on big SQL Server and Oracle business apps) it's wrong to characterise it as "Latin" or ad hoc. I'd accept there are "ad hoc" aspects, but this is only clear to a weirdo who looks deep inside the SQL, and complaining that it's not designed to be a multi-user system with an SQLServer/Oracle back end is a bit like complaining a cow is not a horse. As an Oracle/SQL Server snob myself, I've actually been surprised at how well my test catalogues have survived my own screwing around with them (eg via ODBC). More importantly, I've been impressed at how few real world user problems with the app have been database-related. It's a lot more robust than some I could mention.

Note there is a LR SDK. It's in an obscure language called Lua, and isn't supported by the same variety of documentation as SQL or more widely-used programming languages, but it allows you to set up custom fields and expose them in the UI. That said, I've been a big advocate for custom fields being available to Joe the User, and do think that LR forces most users to misuse keywords. Adobe could have approached this area differently.

But I do wish PhaseOne luck. iView starts out with the advantage that it can already catalogue whatever file types the photographer wishes to catalogue - unlike LR or its Mac-limited competitor. So if sound files or PDFs are part of photographic projects, you can organise them with the same program that manages the associated images.

I think the big decision for PhaseOne is whether to combine or integrate. I believe that the best solution would be a combined workflow tool, but that obviously takes more resources and time, and is more risky than going for integration. So the issue is how integrated the two products should be. Part of the success of workflow apps like Lightroom is that there's no need to think whether the thumbnails you're managing reflect your adjustments, or whether the image you're exporting contains your metadata. By contrast, with an iView/Raw editor workflow, when you're managing your work in iView you're seeing raw files without your adjustments (hence the popularity of iView plus DNG or NX2) while exporting a raw file from, say, PhaseOne means you have to take extra steps to ensure the exported TIF contains your iView metadata. Even those of us who use DNG have to remember to update our iView thumbnails after adjusting our DNGs, and remember to sync our metadata back into the DNG. PhaseOne's integration would need to eliminate those needs to remember so that changes in one program are immediately reflected in the other. If I'm editing a raw file in C1, but then go to iView and change its rating or keywords, the open image in C1 needs to get those changes. Likewise, iView needs its thumbnail to be updated intelligently. This brings up many complications such as metadata entry in C1 or iView's various output features (its web output works excellently with DNGs' embedded JPEGs). In the end, C1-iView will need to be so integrated it may as well be combined.

John
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 05:47:53 AM by johnbeardy » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2010, 05:05:28 AM »
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Steve Hendrix wrote:

[I've confirmed that anyone who is a Capture One Pro owner can download Expressions Media for free ($199 value) until June 30. You'll have to go through a check-out process (just make sure to add to cart the version that costs $0). You will have to enter a credit card number, but your total will be $0 charged. An activation email will then find its way to you.]

I wonder, I have an old version of iView Pro, to which they promised a free upgrade to the Microsoft version when it was ready; but in fact I never received that offer.  I don't have Capture 1. But I do have a Leaf AFi-ii 7 and now that they are offering tethered support for that camera and are now supporting service for that camera I am tempted to purchase it. If I can also get the new iView for free until June 30th it is doubly tempting.

So - if I buy C1 Pro before June 30 can I get the Microsoft version of i View free?
And will it read my older iView catalogs?

Thanks,
Neil

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