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Author Topic: Dude...  (Read 10927 times)
CBarrett
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« on: May 27, 2010, 10:16:29 AM »
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There's an app for the iPad called Air Display that expands the desktop of your Mac (connecting through a WiFi {or AdHoc} network).  I put my new toy to good use as the image viewer for C1 Pro.  It doesn't work as fast or as effortlessly as I might like, but you gotta admit, this is just friggin cool!

-CB
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 10:20:16 AM »
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I really wanted to wait until this weekend to redo this video with higher production quality, but seeings how this beats me to it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10NE0QxWT0U

I'll fill in some details this weekend. However, my strong recommendation is AGAINST the program Air Display and to an alternative using a difference VNC solution.

The flexibility that C1 offers to customize the interface and use two viewers at the same time makes this one of the most powerful ideas I've seen in a long time. It requires some refinement (the link below was preliminary and will be redone with more detail and production value this weekend).

I've already done all the work to tell ya'll how to do this. Just need to write it up and right now im busy!

Suffice it to say that when chris says "its not fast or efficient" ... after reading my article the similar-but-different solution we've researched IS fast (almost instant), it IS efficient, and its enormously flexible and powerful.

Like I said details this weekend. Hope you don't mind a few days wait :-).

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 10:46:58 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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Conner999
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 10:20:51 AM »
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Indeed cool - looking fwd to my Pad - due any day.
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CBarrett
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 10:23:39 AM »
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Leave it to Doug to come up with the Right way to do this...

LoL
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 10:47:36 AM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Leave it to Doug to come up with the Right way to do this...

;-).

You're on my s@#% list for beating me to it though :-P.

Just kidding of course.
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 11:58:51 AM »
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Wow.  Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly?  Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 12:05:31 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Wow.  Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly?  Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.

Yeah, there will definitly be a growth period and refinement.

Phase One will be offering it's own iPad app soon enough. I just don't like waiting and this is also a fundamentally different concept with it's own advantages and disadvantages :-).

Though I would caution that the concept is already significantly more refined than that test video shows. I beg some patience in this regard.
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bcooter
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 12:28:17 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Wow.  Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly?  Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.


There is DSLR remote for Canons and Nikons that work much in this same way though an Ad-hoc system.

I've tried these things before, even back to the days of sending a wireless NTSC signal from a desktop to a hand held ICan Monitor and like all move around wireless, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but most are just a gimmick under fast pace production, unless you dedicate one single person to do nothing but tech the viewing devices.

This Ipad thing "may" be different in it's use, but at least it's a way to see a phase file on a good lcd, though I wouldn't really like clients screwing around with color and exposure, but that's just me, maybe other photographers would  think that's fine.

When these hand held devices do work, everyone is kind stoked for the first 30 minutes, then they are back to the tethering stations and the portable monitors are just sitting on a table burning through batteries, or worse someone yells out hey can you go back that that other shot you know the one with the hair behind her head and let me see that?

In other words a lot of this stuff is  more distracting than useful IMO and more for a client than a photographer.  The photographer needs to see the shot as they are working and would be more photographer useful if Phase would just glue it on the back of their Pee systems.

 Actually, I'd love to see it get back to the days where the A.D. actually looked at the set, rather than the screen, because there is inspiration on the set, reviewing everything on the screen is usually just damage control to make sure you have "that" shot, safe, but  not very inspirational.

It's more a democratization of the shoot and in my view detaches the creatives from the set and if one of these devices ever gets out in the crowd, you'll never get anything shot, it will just be a million voices willing to give "suggestions".  

Now the one use I can see for this is to build a bracket and mount it to the tripod leg, that way the photographer doesn't have to run over to the monitor to see the lighting set up.

Now if you really want to open up a world of hurt, shoot a job long distance.  We did a gig last year where the C.D. could not travel, so we set up with a company that gave her a live  view on her computer of the images as we shot.  It took about 10,000 cell phone calls with stuff like, "can you move that prop to the left and can you get the model in the blue shirt to smile more.  At first it seemed somewhat useful and "safe", but then you'd make the changes, call the C.D. and she's in a meeting, or on another phone call,  so the crew sits, the rhythm is broken and then you get back to work.

What would have been an easy day, turned into 12 hours and a lot of opportunities were missed.

Photography is now a  collaborative process, but not necessarily democratic, not if your going to produce anything interesting.

Once again, IMO.

BC

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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 12:54:35 PM »
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It's a much better solution than having to let the client/a.d. view the image on the camera's lcd or a tethered laptop. I would much prefer not to be slowed down by someone looking over my shoulder.
The best option, if possible, would be to have an automatic process that would copy each raw file to a seperate directory that the ipad can access and display. this way the client/a.d. would be able to shuffle back and fourth independently. For high volume shooters, this might not work since the ipad can only have 64GB of storage. Maybe there is a way to access a directory remotely on a macbook from the ipad ??

just thinking out loud.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 01:09:27 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
It's a much better solution than having to let the client/a.d. view the image on the camera's lcd or a tethered laptop. I would much prefer not to be slowed down by someone looking over my shoulder.
The best option, if possible, would be to have an automatic process that would copy each raw file to a seperate directory that the ipad can access and display. this way the client/a.d. would be able to shuffle back and fourth independently. For high volume shooters, this might not work since the ipad can only have 64GB of storage. Maybe there is a way to access a directory remotely on a macbook from the ipad ??

just thinking out loud.

All part of what I'll be writing about. This is one of the best features of the iPhone App Leaf wrote for Leaf Capture and is sure to be part of the solution Phase One releases. Until then though...
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bcooter
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 01:31:21 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
just thinking out loud.


I've tried most ways of viewing, seen them all from Icon L.A's digital trailer to tech stations with multiple technicians etherneted to multiple computers where one person techs the actual shoot the other edits and process with a client.

I've seen and tried hand held devices, showing the back of cameras, usually tether multiple monitors and though it's safe, I've never seen it improve the photography.

In fact one of the fastest and most creative projects I've done was with a good A.D. that did not want to tether, other than a few frames once we were set, so we'd set up, shoot, get it to where it can be shown (kind of like in the days of polaroid, except think 30" polaroid), then unplug and shoot to cards.

The A.D. had faith in himself to see what was happening on the set, he had faith in us to expand the project to more than the original creative brief and didn't want a thousand voices involved.

It's rare, but it can happen.

I can see where this device can be useful but it should never get out of the hands of the A.D. (a good A.D. that you work closely with and probably should come with handcuffs), but since all of these systems run from camera to computer to hand held device, it's another level of complexity, another screen in the room and for some reason digital invites comments like film never did.  Maybe because they are seeing the actual shot, or what they think will be the actual shot, though as we all know after editing and post production what we deliver looks a lot different that what we are shooting..

I use to have this love hate thing with polaroid mainly because it was about as stable as Mel Gibson and was tiny on most medium format cameras,  but my favorite way of proofing was to shoot that folding polaroid camera and fire of 4 or six images to be stitched (not photoshop stitched, but scotch tape stitched) so the client could see the "idea" of the shoot.

It's amazing to look back at that and remember how respectful everyone was of this process.  Sure there would be comments, some constructive some not, but nobody was constantly directing from a TV screen.  I don't believe in going back, I know the toothpaste is way out of the tube, and I know the tech geeks get a boner for this stuff, but  just because we can do something doesn't mean we always should.

Can you imagine Avedon's West series shot today.  Two 30" monitors a  group of twenty holding I-pad's and saying "uh Dick, I've been looking at this guy with the snake and I think it would look really cool in color instead of black and white, maybe if the snake was real, real green and oh BTW:  can you remove some of those tattoos and get the snake to look more aspirational?".

BC
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yaya
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 01:39:43 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
All part of what I'll be writing about. This is one of the best features of the iPhone App Leaf wrote for Leaf Capture and is sure to be part of the solution Phase One releases. Until then though...


Just a little teaser...at your nearest (app)store soon...

[attachment=22230:Screen_s...16.21.28.jpeg]


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feppe
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Oh this shows up in here!


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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 01:46:22 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
Just a little teaser...at your nearest (app)store soon...

[attachment=22230:Screen_s...16.21.28.jpeg]

Not sure what use I would have for that - even if I could fit in it, red is really not my color.

edit: ohhhh, I see... Sorry, but already have a Harley.

edit2: ohhhhhhh... never mind, I'm gonna shut up now.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 01:47:11 PM by feppe » Logged

gwhitf
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 02:11:00 PM »
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Doug,

You are to be congratulated, or Phase, or Leaf, or someone.

For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.

My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.

I'm not saying you can snap your fingers and make this happen, but in this New Economy, there are more shots to do in a given day's time. The KEYWORD is ease of use, and portability, and speed. My ideal solution: A camera on a tripod with a photographer behind it, and then a cord coming out of the back, and that cord runs right into an Ipad, with a paying AD standing there holding the iPad. That solution makes sense to me.

When the George Whitfield system hits the market, it'll be called "Just Show Me The Damn Picture, and Let's Keep Moving".

I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it. If I already can't decide at which restaurant to eat at with Wife#1, why would I want to interject yet another Wife with a third opinion? Why? I know the answer is: "Well, it's because the Ipad is not powerful enough", but like StinkyCooter said somewhere else, "Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD".
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:23:43 PM by gwhitf » Logged
JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2010, 02:31:16 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Doug,

You are to be congratulated, or Phase, or Leaf, or someone.

For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.

My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.

I'm not saying you can snap your fingers and make this happen, but in this New Economy, there are more shots to do in a given day's time. The KEYWORD is ease of use, and portability, and speed. My ideal solution: A camera on a tripod with a photographer behind it, and then a cord coming out of the back, and that cord runs right into an Ipad, with a paying AD standing there holding the iPad. That solution makes sense to me.

When the George Whitfield system hits the market, it'll be called "Just Show Me The Damn Picture, and Let's Keep Moving".

I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it. If I already can't decide at which restaurant to eat at with Wife#1, why would I want to interject yet another Wife with a third opinion? Why? I know the answer is: "Well, it's because the Ipad is not powerful enough", but like StinkyCooter said somewhere else, "Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD".

The iPad would be remotely operated and would give a photographer at least 5-10 feet of breathing room. You'd get everyones opinion, but at least they would be less likely to smear your laptop screen with their fingers.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2010, 02:55:28 PM »
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Quote from: JonathanBenoit
You'd get everyones opinion, but at least they would be less likely to smear your laptop screen with their fingers.

Now there is a real working photographer. You know the real deal. That was the password -- you're in. It's the door on your right.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2010, 03:13:36 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.

I think there is not a single camera engineer in the world who disagrees.

Leaf's iPaq remote viewing system was about as close to this concept as has been created. I think it showed both how cool this can and will be (eventually) but also how there are a lot of challenges involved.

Honestly, I know this sounds biased, but I think that of all camera companies of all types of cameras that Phase One with it's resources and Leaf with it's past experience with both the iPaq viewer and the iPad application is probably the best bet to have a solution which is both powerful enough to help workfow and simple enough to actually use even during heavy shooting and without having to be (or hire) a nerd to use.

The solution I will detail that you can start using today may not be right for everyone. But for some shooters I think it will be a very big help to shooting.

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2010, 03:43:10 PM »
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You guys will make me go and finally blow $$$ on apple stuff.  Just figures, a couple months back I got an asus lappy, very nice and light fast long battery. It has no firewire but it has blue tooth. Is there any way to have a leaf back work with win7 bluetooth?  Sounds  like I need a mac pro, a macbook for tether, as that's what drives the ipad.  So it requires that the back be tethered in order for the files to be available on the ipad. That would mean a mac book is first piece I need.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 04:07:13 PM by gotspeed » Logged
CBarrett
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »
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I dunno guys. I feel like working off the laptop allows me to make better pictures. I get to see if the HDR sliders are gonna get me the window detail or just how much I need to bracket for post. I can see whether Color Editor can get rid of that green cast in the background or if I need to pull out gels and finally, looking at the image as large as possible allows me to more effectively analyze all the graphical interactions within the composition.

Shooting the old way with 4x5 Polaroid just made me miss all the shit that I catch now. I think this is all more relevant to my situation than, say a fashion shooter's and I have the advantage of generally having very few folks on set.

It's all relative, of course. Relatively speaking.

CB
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2010, 03:43:45 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.
[...]
I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it.

The iPad is a 100% wireless part of this system whether you are using AirDisplay (which I don't recommend - not fast or stable), the upcoming Phase One iPad App for C1 (not out yet), or our solution. If you aren't using it for a while you put it to sleep, and later in the shoot wake it up (it will auto reconnect) in about 3 seconds. That's different than something "hanging off your camera".

It can be viewed in a room down the hall, across the room, or right next to the photographer and can stay with the person who is using it. The interface can be display only (so the person can't make any adjustments), rate/browse only (so the person can rate the images and browse between images), or full C1 functionality including histogram, adjustments, rating, capture naming etc.

For your style of shooting the iPad would be set up Display Only and you could turn the display of the MacBookPro off or put a hood on it to discourage more than one viewer at a time.  In this configuration it would simply be a larger, higher resolution of the back of the camera LCD except for a few second delay between shutter release and showing on the iPad, and the image will include any styling you've done in C1 (contrast, curves, vignette, color adjustments, highlight/shadow, tinting, lens correction, crop, overlay, clarity etc etc).

It can also be used as a easy editing tool. This is the mode the system is in when you view the youtube video. Big, easy-to-use buttons to move to the next image and rate it (green, yellow, red) with or without the ability to make adjustments to the images.

I'm not looking at this thread anymore until I'm able to post my article. Half-way explanations don't help anyone.

Doug Peterson
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