Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: The (real) Impact of RED cameras  (Read 22185 times)
jjj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3649



WWW
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2010, 10:30:49 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BJL
The use of 7Ds along side the far more expensive and bulky RED's suggests that the 7D does not replace the RED, but complements it for some tasks.
As always your tools add to your creative palette.

Quote
And that is not the greater extremes of shallow DOF as with Dr. House's 5DII, so I would guess compactness made the DSLR more convenient for some hand-help work in tight locations.
The 5DII's main advantage for the House episode that used 5DIIs was for being able to get into very tight spots. Though shallow DoF was also a consideration.
BTW, the BBC programme I saw that apparently used REDs and 7Ds was 'The Silence' and featured lots of extremely shallow DoF. Very good sound design too.
Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
jjj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3649



WWW
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2010, 11:18:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rob C
Like the Pajero vehicle which raises amused smiles everywhere they speak Spanish.
Exactly!
Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
jjj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3649



WWW
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2010, 11:22:01 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: pschefz
I can tell you from talking to DPs that they have all used the red, nobody has anything bad to say ( other then the same thing still guys say about it that the raw image out of the camera looks like crap but can be tweaked much more then all others) but they are all using canons now (unless they are shooting film) because they feel that that is where things will be in the near future anyway....
I have heard complaints about the RED and reliability. It can crash and a DoP I was chatting to a few days back said the one they were using on a 5 day shoot died.
Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
feppe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2909

Oh this shows up in here!


WWW
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2010, 01:45:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: BJL
I still do not see how video in DSLRs are a response to digital cine-cameras like the RED One and Epic; maybe the 2/3" RED Scarlet is more relevant.  When the RED cine-cameras arrived, the main DSLR maker that they were competing with was Sony, by competing with cameras like the Super 35mm format Sony CineAlta F35; maybe some high end 2/3" stuff from Panasonic too, but not Canon's 1/3" camcorders (for TV news, not movies) and certainly not Nikon. Yet Sony, most affected by RED, still does not offer video in any DSLR, and its design decisions make all NEX cameras including the VG100 camcorder very unsuited to compete against RED. So Sony's only effective response so far is the forthcoming CineAlta S35. Ironically it was Nikon, with no camcorder business at all, that was the first DSLR maker to add video, in the D90, and Canon was second, while being second least affected by RED competition.

The pattern of release of "more affordable large sensor digital video" suggests that if Sony, Canon and Panasonic have been protecting anything by previously omitting video from DSLR's, it was their consumer level camcorder product lines, not the professional gear that RED competes with. And it was perhaps Nikon and Panasonic (whose 4/3" format video intentions were probably signaled to the industry by its introduction of Live View in DSLRs) who forced a reaction from Canon and Sony.

I wasn't referring to cine cameras - I know there are a few feature films in development to be shot at least in part with DSLRs, but I doubt anyone regards them as a serious competition to real cine cameras in their current form.

The fact that Nikon was the first still camera maker to offer video is not ironic: they had the least to lose since they didn't have to worry about cannibalization. It only reinforces my thesis that Canon was dragged kicking and screaming to the motion DSLR market only when Nikon and RED (Scarlet) released or announced their cameras, and threatened Canon's video camera market. My understanding is that video guys have been begging for something like the Scarlet for years, so Canon knew they couldn't just ignore the threat. Panny and Sony entering the fray must have caused some quite interesting discussions about turf between Canon's still, video and cine product line execs

Agree completely with the 2nd para.

For the record I agree with jjj's assessment that it is likely that selling hundreds of thousands of motion camera systems at less than $10k per pop is likely more profitable than selling a few hundred (?) at $100k+ Having said that, taking that risk in the current economy takes brass balls especially when it requires cannibalization, and at the moment only RED and Panasonic appear to have (or are about) wholeheartedly enter the market with a non-crippled fully featured motion camera designed for the purpose.

That is until Photokina, perhaps.
Logged

ziocan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 427


« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2010, 10:25:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: jjj
I have heard complaints about the RED and reliability. It can crash and a DoP I was chatting to a few days back said the one they were using on a 5 day shoot died.
Some DoP states that the RED is significantly impacted by heat, when shooting outside on hot places.
Normally Arri cameras are not.
Logged
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1843


« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2010, 11:53:54 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ziocan
Some DoP states that the RED is significantly impacted by heat, when shooting outside on hot places.
Normally Arri cameras are not.

Less the cam and more the accessories get a little flakey, at least in the 100+F its been the last few months.  We put an umbrella over the cam which cooled it off, but was annoying to work under.
Logged
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1843


« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2010, 11:55:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: jjj
I have heard complaints about the RED and reliability. It can crash and a DoP I was chatting to a few days back said the one they were using on a 5 day shoot died.

Maybe they had a crappy one from a rental pool.  No major problems to report over the last two years or so.
Logged
bcooter
Guest
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2010, 02:09:35 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
Maybe they had a crappy one from a rental pool.  No major problems to report over the last two years or so.


T,

Do you have the M or MX sensor?  If so, just guess but what is the highest iso you can achieve with either sensor?

Have you pulled stills from the actual footage and if so have they gone through post production and been published?

I hear from a lot of people about the skin tones on the RED.  In fact Arri mentions they have great skintones for their new camera, which I guess is a sales tool against RED.  What is your experience with skin tones?

Thx.

BC
Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4217



« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2010, 02:15:21 AM »
ReplyReply

The info I get out of Canon is that the MAJORITY of 5DII sales over here are for video use. The 7D has not seen such an enthusiastic acceptance from the video crowd. As the model is now far from new, this means The 5DII is producing commercially useful video footage.

One thing I've heard is that people are simply cranking up the ISO on the 5DII and not lighting anymore in any significant way. This is going to annoy the hell out of RED and the renters.

Edmund
Logged
jjj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3649



WWW
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2010, 05:08:42 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
Maybe they had a crappy one from a rental pool.  No major problems to report over the last two years or so.
Just because you have used a item that has worked without issues, does not mean all other items the same also work.
Usually the argument used by idiot Macolytes. "Mine's never had any problems" to prove it must be true that they all just work.
REDs are still a bit beta-ish so problems are not exactly unlikely.
Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: rethmeier
Pajero = little wanker?

Rob C I like your style,
maybe we have something in common after all.
Cheers,
Willem



Well, we are both photographers, so that's always a good sign! ;-)

I enjoyed a trip through your website just now, and I have to say that as I get older I find the sort of stuff you and others do here quite a bit more interesting than I use to do. I think it is all about pace. Was a time that I really believed fast and furious gave me better results than the obvious alternative, and maybe in that genre I was right. Nonetheless, there is a growing realisation in my mind about the attractions of the calmer, more studied approach that architecture must demand: maybe a good shot from that method gives even more satisfaction than the rapid fire of some model shoots.

However, I guess that in the end, both genres suffer from the same drawback: you can only be as good as what's in front of the camera.

Looking through your work I am struck with the thought that the ambient temperatures in Sydney and Mallorca must be around the same. However, I see a distinctly different approach to handling that temperature range, though I guess the problems of eucalyptus trees are about equal.

Here, there is great emphasis on shutters to create inner darkness in summer (to keep things cool) and protect the glass from rain and gales in winter. In your pics I see no such things, and I am led to wonder about how folks keep out the sun. Not only is sunshine and heat a damned uncomfortable combination if you can't escape it, but it also kills fabrics and colours; a hell of an experience to live indoors but outside at the same time! What do you all do down there in the south, are all those huge panes protected by rolling blinds both inside and out? I am thinking in particular of the house at Pearl Beach. I hate air-con though I do have it in what was once an office-cum-darkroom and is now just office. And what about privacy?

It's obvious enough that there is an unlimited supply of money available to the owners, and I bet Mrs Owner never has actually to clean any glass wall... I have my family coming out tomorrow for a week or so and I had to clean the french windows I have here; the last time I used no soap and only vinegar-laced water that cuts the cal... this time, not able to face the thought of all that mess dripping onto the carpet, I used those bottles of stuff you spray and wipe. Probably a mistake: it creates a film that's almost impossible to wipe away and is just as tiring as water would have been and not as good.

Must be a moral somewhere.

Ciao

Rob C
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 03:11:48 AM by Rob C » Logged

TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1843


« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2010, 07:31:40 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: jjj
Just because you have used a item that has worked without issues, does not mean all other items the same also work.
Usually the argument used by idiot Macolytes. "Mine's never had any problems" to prove it must be true that they all just work.
REDs are still a bit beta-ish so problems are not exactly unlikely.

I said my Red works, not all Reds work.  People who went to college call that a post hoc falacy.  Rentals often have more problems.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  

And yes, my Macs just work.
Logged
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1843


« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2010, 09:32:50 PM »
ReplyReply

BC,

M sensor.  We were in line for M-X, then we lost our place, now back on the horse.  This was our fault.  By "our" I mean my partner who has physical custody.

I'm comfy with 800, better at 640 or 500.  I like to over expose by a stop.  I thought the M-X we tested was really nice up to 1250/1600.  The MX really is much better than the M.

Funny you should ask about frame pulls being printed, as I was just bitching about this yesterday:  No, nothing printed on a web press.  Lots of web stills, but the reality is for print, clients choose the stills shot with stills cameras, be it 4x5, M8, 1ds3 or D3x.  

As to skin tones, its still a digital camera, so lighting and grading is really important.  The Red M sensor likes unfiltered tungsten sources best, at least our Red does.  Skin has a film like sharpness to it, sharp but not PHASE 3.7 sharp. The files are just pretty.

I like the skin tones from the Sony ex3 the best, as long as the scene is lit.  Really amazing stuff. Looks like A900 files after being retouched.

As an aside, I'm starting to really, really like the 7D and 5D2.  We block scenes and shoot it with the Red or on Kodak and then we do a number of takes where I shoot it with the the 5D or 7D. Just a different response from the actors, they are both more and less conscious of the camera, it takes them out of their comfort zone, as they are being filmed from different angles than from rehearsal and you can get rather close.  Its really great, even if only to get a better performance out  the actors.

I've been absent from the web for a while, its been really nice.  When I checked in here recently I found the same measurbating BS and personality disorder windbags that made me pack my bags.  I realized the less I looked at this forum the less I care about gear.  Its liberating.

T


Quote from: bcooter
T,

Do you have the M or MX sensor?  If so, just guess but what is the highest iso you can achieve with either sensor?

Have you pulled stills from the actual footage and if so have they gone through post production and been published?

I hear from a lot of people about the skin tones on the RED.  In fact Arri mentions they have great skintones for their new camera, which I guess is a sales tool against RED.  What is your experience with skin tones?

Thx.

BC
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 09:50:29 PM by TMARK » Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4217



« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2010, 12:33:42 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
I said my Red works, not all Reds work.  People who went to college call that a post hoc falacy.  Rentals often have more problems.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  

And yes, my Macs just work.

TMARK,

I always wondered what that common mode of reasoning was called. My name for it would have been false induction.

I just found out and am very surprised by the fact that there are those who would catalogue  fallacies - here in France they say that the only human attribute which aspires to the infinite is idiocy.

And here is the definition of the post hoc fallacy in the idiotic-tionary. I'm not quite convinced it is the right label. And yes, I think you are right, not to care about the label is liberating, so maybe we should not inflict such teachings upon the young.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html


Edmund
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 12:51:15 AM by eronald » Logged
fredjeang
Guest
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2010, 02:13:00 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
I've been absent from the web for a while, its been really nice.  When I checked in here recently I found the same measurbating BS and personality disorder windbags that made me pack my bags.  I realized the less I looked at this forum the less I care about gear.  Its liberating.
T
I'm experimenting exactly the same.

Lu-La is a great forum, but it is a pitty that it is going more and more about gear stuff and brands addiction, not only about gear techs but about gear A against gear B.

In the end I realise more and more that the only motivation for many is just winning with arguments or convince themselves and the others about how great the brand they work with is.
But very little real relevant info emerge from these arguments because most are empty and generally not made to inform but to speculate and win a semantic battle.

I'm completly amazed to see people bringing photography to the same blind support we see in political meeting. Nikon adulation, Canon adulation, DxO addiction, MF vs 35...We are at this teenage level of
consciousness too many times and I've been falling in that gear trap more than once I admit. It is addictive in some ways.

The only "collective" that seem to be free of battle is the LF users. They might be seen as a wired little outdated comité completly cutted from Live-view land and DR summits so they rest in peace, in a little forum's corner.

In the end you nearly beleive all that s....t really matters but when you stop for awhile things just come back at the place they should be.

At least, the great benefit of the forums is after such an indigestion of gear, curves preocupations and scientific speculations, once you vomite them all, you feel cured and liberated.

Gear paranoia is catching the first page cover, fortunatly when you open the pages and search there is a lot more real interesting stuff here in many different sections.

Fred.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 02:54:42 AM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
Guest
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2010, 03:15:35 AM »
ReplyReply

T,

I haven't shot the RED yet, mean to, put one on hold, then just get on with the 5d/7d and it works either on the sticks or shoulder mount/hand held.  

A lot of the reason is every time I think I'll shoot the RED, the project is held to the last minute, then we're off and running with no time to go through another learning curve.  

Regardless, what I'm using is working and as you know motion is such a different look than stills.  What looks kind of soft and blurred in a motion still looks great once it's moving.

I'm all for the tungsten part, on any digital camera and have used tungsten since the 1ds one.  I've heard, read seen the stuff about the blue channel and all those technical chart comparisons,  but pretty is pretty and I think digital looks a lot less digital with tungsten than any other source, still or motion, but as you say and I've always believed, the camera is not THAT important.  

Yes these forums do seem to repeat themselves and really since the last Photokina, there hasn't been much to talk about that is new and ground breaking, except the economics of our industry (which nobody talks about in public) and probably how the 5d has supplanted 75% of still and motion work as the go to camera, at least if you shoot people.

I think a lot of the gear talk comparison comes from the fact that there are a lot of dealers and a few people connected to dealers that use every thread possible as a segway into selling their product.   I think if Michael could charge just $10 for every posted signature that offers 10% off some software or mentions some special/seminar/sales presentation,  he probably could buy another new place in Mexico.

If I wrote that last line on one of the Leica, Phase, Nikon threads there would be two dozen reprisals, but up here in this part of the section the dealers and dealer's friends seem to stay away.  I guess there is nothing to sell in the pro business discussion.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

BC



Quote from: TMARK
BC,

M sensor.  We were in line for M-X, then we lost our place, now back on the horse.  This was our fault.  By "our" I mean my partner who has physical custody.

I'm comfy with 800, better at 640 or 500.  I like to over expose by a stop.  I thought the M-X we tested was really nice up to 1250/1600.  The MX really is much better than the M.

Funny you should ask about frame pulls being printed, as I was just bitching about this yesterday:  No, nothing printed on a web press.  Lots of web stills, but the reality is for print, clients choose the stills shot with stills cameras, be it 4x5, M8, 1ds3 or D3x.  

As to skin tones, its still a digital camera, so lighting and grading is really important.  The Red M sensor likes unfiltered tungsten sources best, at least our Red does.  Skin has a film like sharpness to it, sharp but not PHASE 3.7 sharp. The files are just pretty.

I like the skin tones from the Sony ex3 the best, as long as the scene is lit.  Really amazing stuff. Looks like A900 files after being retouched.

As an aside, I'm starting to really, really like the 7D and 5D2.  We block scenes and shoot it with the Red or on Kodak and then we do a number of takes where I shoot it with the the 5D or 7D. Just a different response from the actors, they are both more and less conscious of the camera, it takes them out of their comfort zone, as they are being filmed from different angles than from rehearsal and you can get rather close.  Its really great, even if only to get a better performance out  the actors.

I've been absent from the web for a while, its been really nice.  When I checked in here recently I found the same measurbating BS and personality disorder windbags that made me pack my bags.  I realized the less I looked at this forum the less I care about gear.  Its liberating.

T
Logged
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2010, 03:44:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
I've been absent from the web for a while, its been really nice.  When I checked in here recently I found the same measurbating BS and personality disorder windbags that made me pack my bags.  I realized the less I looked at this forum the less I care about gear.  Its liberating.

T



Well, I hope you do not abandon the ship. It isn't really sinking yet - more that it's sailing through a difficult time because of the many changes in photographic technology both with cameras and ways of getting to the end result which isn't even always a photograph anymore, in the commonly understood meaning of photo as print!

I suppose this will continue until the time when the major players have either fallen or become rulers, much as when in the days of film we had a similar struggle and brand shake-out amongst makers but without the nonsensical claims being made by fans on a world-wide platform. Of course, without the internet these claims could never be aired even today, outwith the camera clubs which we could all avoid now and mainly did then.

For myself, the attraction of LuLa is twofold: it gives me access and communication with other minds that fascinate me; it allows pretty instant access to generous help when it is needed. For example, I would still be struggling away on my own fighting the monitor's colours and a website of my own would have remained a dream.

Underscoring all of that, valuable as it is, lie the posts from today's pros that really do make me keep alive my interest in the pro world, even though it has probably gone for good from my life. At the same time, I have discovered sites belonging to others here who are in no way professionals but still produce beautiful work and have a huge enthusiasm for the medium. All of that helps the individual retain his perspective and love for the craft.

Frankly, there is nowhere else that I've found that brings so much to me so easily. But, it all depends on the quality of the posts or topics into which I dip the tentative toe. Some I have to respond to at once whilst others never get a second reading.

Regrets? Sure, it would be nice to see and read even more from the top guns, but that's asking for a lot, mainly of what they have least: their time!

Rob C
Logged

jjj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3649



WWW
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2010, 04:43:09 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
Funny you should ask about frame pulls being printed, as I was just bitching about this yesterday:  No, nothing printed on a web press.  Lots of web stills, but the reality is for print, clients choose the stills shot with stills cameras, be it 4x5, M8, 1ds3 or D3x.
No matter how good the moving capture, you still need a stills camera for two reason.  High quality motion capture is rarely high quality when viewed as a single frame, as it will often look crap due to low shutter speeds combined with movement of subject/camera. Secondly setups that are shot to edit together into a scene, when seen individually may not be that interesting as a still, so to capture a scene as a still image you may need to conflate the elements to a coherent whole.

The [sort of] converse also applies, as being able to create a good still image does not mean you can tell a story through moving images. Nearly all 'films' I see made by photographers look like a slideshow of nice shots that happen to be moving. There is no sense of story.
Logged

Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710



WWW
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2010, 05:11:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Photography forums...I'm afraid I'm running out of energy, enthusiasm and above all patience.

My passion for image making thankfully remains undiminished.
Logged

fredjeang
Guest
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2010, 05:32:25 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: KLaban
Photography forums...I'm afraid I'm running out of energy, enthusiasm and above all patience.

My passion for image making thankfully remains undiminished.
Yep.

What we need are more profund and fascinating threads. Many Lu-La members are able to bring that new air, unfortunatly when such topics show-up from time to time
they are not popular and almost interest nobody.

But just check the most visited and active topics, a part from the interesting pro works, you notice that what really run the forums are the "zero noise methods, who has the best DR, the fastest shutter-speed, the sensor size, the DxO reports and the cheapest bargains".  
Ironically as pointed BC, there is not really nothing ground-breaking or new in terms of gear for many times, despite of that fact, gear is the number one favorite topic. Not even gear sets in real world that could be interesting but gear for gear, for talking like men talk about sex all the time.
This forum has all the ingredients to recover the level it should be and I hope it will be so.

As I've learned enough so far that the human being never apreciate something free but only when he pays for it, and more the price is high more it is respected, maybe the BCooter's idea about making a toll for the vendors, or even asking every member a 10 euros/years to access the forum would probably be a good idea.

Then, Michael will buy an hotel in Mexico and Chris will finally drive his Sunseeker yacht in the Bahamas (and invite us for a nude shooting on the boat's roof of course  Frank D brings the models)

2 ice cubes in my Martini, thanks.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 06:19:33 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad