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Author Topic: Z3100 + Snow Leopard + CS5 = double profiling?  (Read 2551 times)
Vlad3
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« on: June 05, 2010, 08:07:22 PM »
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Hi guys,

I was forced by my employer to upgrade our MacBookPro to Snow Leopard + CS5 and I’m already up to my neck in problem solving. The latest issue is that my prints from Z3100 no longer match my soft proofs. I suspect it must be a double profiling error somewhere in my workflow and here is why:

For my latest image I’m testing HP Matte Litho-realistic paper.  When I go into VIEW > PROOF SETUP > CUSTOM and select DEVICE TO SIMULATE: HP Designjet Z3100, HP Matte Litho-realistic Paper (Rendering Intent: Relative Colorimetric + Simulate Paper Color checked in) I now have to check PRESERVE RGB NUMBERS option to obtain the look matching the prints coming from my Z3100. The PRESERVE RGB NUMBERS option desaturates colors and introduces a dark gray shade that differs dramatically from my calibrated monitor view or my original RAW file (my printer settings are PHOTOSHOP MANAGES COLORS and ADOBE RGB 1998 as my Printer Profile).

BTW – with OS 10.5 and CS4 I was able to use HP PDF PREVIEW before hitting the print button. It was slow but accurate summary. The current PREVIEW is straightforward but primitive… and it is a different issue…

Looking forward to learning from you again!

Vlad3

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eddysmit
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 02:56:47 AM »
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Vlad.
After months of swearıng on my MAC and printer. The only simple solution was to delete the prınter and all the drivers ın the lıbrary under printer. Install the latest drıvers and fınally all works fıne.
I hope ıt works for you.
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Vlad3
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 05:27:19 PM »
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Quote from: eddysmit
Vlad.
After months of swearıng on my MAC and printer. The only simple solution was to delete the prınter and all the drivers ın the lıbrary under printer. Install the latest drıvers and fınally all works fıne.
I hope ıt works for you.


Hi Eddy,

These updates are always frustrating. I'm actually doing exactly what you have done before me. Should know the answer by tomorrow...

Cheers,

Vlad

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Vlad3
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2010, 08:57:43 PM »
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Well... unfortunately... the problem persists...

I think the issue could be that under Snow Leopard I still didn't discover how to reliably switch off PRINTER COLOR MANAGEMENT... although I chose PS MANAGES COLORS in the printer settings, in the final summary I can still see that PRINTER MANAGES COLORS... no change...

I'd like PRINTER to manage colors for my B&W prints but PS to do it for my RGB work...

Frustrating...

V3



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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 02:28:08 AM »
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Quote from: Vlad3
Well... unfortunately... the problem persists...

I think the issue could be that under Snow Leopard I still didn't discover how to reliably switch off PRINTER COLOR MANAGEMENT... although I chose PS MANAGES COLORS in the printer settings, in the final summary I can still see that PRINTER MANAGES COLORS... no change...

I'd like PRINTER to manage colors for my B&W prints but PS to do it for my RGB work...

Frustrating...

V3

The Z3100 driver often falls back to the factory default when the setting is changed in the driver as shown in the application you print from. At least that is something I experienced with Windows versions right from the start more than 3 years ago. In Windows changing the printing preferences in Printers and Faxes to  "Application managed color" solves that issue. Another method is to make the settings in the driver and save them as a printing shortcuts, that way you can make a B&W shortcut that actually uses the Printer CM in B&W mode instead of the HP B&W mode default that does the opposite.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html



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Vlad3
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 06:36:52 PM »
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Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
The Z3100 driver often falls back to the factory default when the setting is changed in the driver as shown in the application you print from. At least that is something I experienced with Windows versions right from the start more than 3 years ago. In Windows changing the printing preferences in Printers and Faxes to  "Application managed color" solves that issue. Another method is to make the settings in the driver and save them as a printing shortcuts, that way you can make a B&W shortcut that actually uses the Printer CM in B&W mode instead of the HP B&W mode default that does the opposite.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


Hi Ernst,

Good to hear from you again! I remember you since my Epson 3000 days! How are you?

Obviously, with every new gizmo and every new upgrade we face the risk of ongoing frustrations. Sometimes I feel I’m spending more time fixing problems than producing photographs. Will that ever change? Probably not.

I wasted tons of time and paper today without solving much. What I learned is this:

My job logs state that the printer was in charge of color management all the time. Well, it may be true or it is a simple software bug (not for the first time coming from HP). It is confusing but I personally think the statement is correct.

When I work on my photographs and send a job from CS5 to Print (CS5 running in 32bit mode because of my plug ins) the Print window gives me the two traditional options of Color management being driven either by PS or my printer. I usually choose PS for color prints (and printer management for BW since it triggers a true quad tone printing with Z3100 on heavy matt papers).

Then the Print settings window opens and as for Color options I can only choose between color and grayscale. My choices for Color matching are either via ColorSync (with my Z3100 created paper profile) or Vendor matching. Vendor matching is a new feature and I really don’t know what it is. It is not explained (perhaps this is my issue?).

Then Preview opens and I see the picture as I saw it on my master monitor. I hit the Print button and with Snow Leopard I pray for mercy…

In any case, when choosing PS (CS5) to be in charge of color management, the results are a mess. My test prints are darker and obviously double profiled. On the other hand, when I choose printer to manage colors, the prints are fine.

Therefore, as I already said in the beginning, without the traditional option of NO COLOR MANAGEMENT (as in CS4 under Leopard 10.5.Cool choosing PS (CS5) does not give satisfactory results because it fights with the printer for control (at least in my case of HP Z3100).

I admit that I’m a technological idiot. Perhaps I’m missing something very obvious. Well, if you find the obvious, please share it with me.

Cheers,

Vlad3
 
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Colorwave
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2010, 12:57:47 AM »
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Vlad-
Where is the job log you are referring to?  I only have a job queue, which does not give information about color management choices.  When I choose PS Manages Colors, in the PS print dialogue, the choice for ColorSync or Vendor Color Matching is not offered (ColorSync is selected, but the buttons are both grayed out).  Under Color Options, I have a choice of Color or Grayscale, and it says that Printer Color Management has been disabled because of the option for PS Managed Color being selected.  I've found soft proofing to be less accurate than before the switch to 10.6.3 and CS5, but not had a problem with prints having a bad color match to prints made previously.  Sorry that I can't offer a silver bullet to help sort out your problem.
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Vlad3
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2010, 02:55:33 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Vlad-
Where is the job log you are referring to?  I only have a job queue, which does not give information about color management choices.  When I choose PS Manages Colors, in the PS print dialogue, the choice for ColorSync or Vendor Color Matching is not offered (ColorSync is selected, but the buttons are both grayed out).  Under Color Options, I have a choice of Color or Grayscale, and it says that Printer Color Management has been disabled because of the option for PS Managed Color being selected.  I've found soft proofing to be less accurate than before the switch to 10.6.3 and CS5, but not had a problem with prints having a bad color match to prints made previously.  Sorry that I can't offer a silver bullet to help sort out your problem.



Colorware,

I was referring to job summary in Z3100 driver...

Even if you choose PS color management it still shows printer color management...

For the time being I'm using printer color management as it seems to be more reliable...  

BTW what is your experience with VENDOR MATCHING. I wonder if this couldn't be the answer. I have to play with it more...

Thanks for your reply,

Vlad3
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Colorwave
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 03:09:26 PM »
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Vlad-
Ah, I don't normally even look at the summary tab in the printer driver.  I just checked, though, and don't know what to make of what it says.  When I select to have PS manage color, it still says that color management has been turned off in the printer under the Color Options tab, still shows ColorSync selected but both options grayed out under Color Matching, but DOES show "printer" as the color management choice in the summary tab.  I'm not sure which feedback is correct, but I'm not getting noticeably dark prints.  Weird.

UPDATE:  I just had a friend who is still running CS4 on 10.5 check the same settings on his system.  He also has a Z3100.  Interestingly enough, when he selects all of the same things, telling PS to manage color, all of the HP feedback says that PS is in charge except for the summary in the printer dialogue box.  His says the same thing and shows Printer under Color Management.  I'm sure that you are having some sort of difficulty in getting correct colors out of your system, but this seems to be a red herring.  If something is truly broken, it was broken on the last OS and with the last version of Photoshop.  More likely, though, this particular item description is just being reported wrong in that location in the printer's dialogue box.  I hope this helps, and at least puts the focus elsewhere for you to troubleshoot.  I know it was disconcerting to see that it said printer color management when I looked the first time.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 04:15:46 PM by Colorwave » Logged

Vlad3
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2010, 04:43:39 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Vlad-
Ah, I don't normally even look at the summary tab in the printer driver.  I just checked, though, and don't know what to make of what it says.  When I select to have PS manage color, it still says that color management has been turned off in the printer under the Color Options tab, still shows ColorSync selected but both options grayed out under Color Matching, but DOES show "printer" as the color management choice in the summary tab.  I'm not sure which feedback is correct, but I'm not getting noticeably dark prints.  Weird.

UPDATE:  I just had a friend who is still running CS4 on 10.5 check the same settings on his system.  He also has a Z3100.  Interestingly enough, when he selects all of the same things, telling PS to manage color, all of the HP feedback says that PS is in charge except for the summary in the printer dialogue box.  His says the same thing and shows Printer under Color Management.  I'm sure that you are having some sort of difficulty in getting correct colors out of your system, but this seems to be a red herring.  If something is truly broken, it was broken on the last OS and with the last version of Photoshop.  More likely, though, this particular item description is just being reported wrong in that location in the printer's dialogue box.  I hope this helps, and at least puts the focus elsewhere for you to troubleshoot.  I know it was disconcerting to see that it said printer color management when I looked the first time.
 

Hi Ron,

Many thanks for your speedy reply! Also, many thanks for checking with your friend! At least we now know that the SUMMARY in HP printer drive is unreliable... Not the first and I'm sure not the last HP software bug... unfortunately...

As you know from my previous postings, I have reinstalled and re-calibrated everything. Still, the printer managing colors option is more reliable. I wonder what is VENDOR MATCHING? I have to admit that I have no idea... but will test it tonight... perhaps this is what could switch one of the two color managing engines off...

Other than that I simply don't know what to think. The easy fix is just to lighten up my future jobs... but it is not right either...

BTW I just heard from a friend that ADOBE is working on a patch for CS5... let's wait and see...

Regards,

Vlad3
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Colorwave
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2010, 04:56:45 PM »
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Vlad-
I wouldn't discount some printing improvements being sorted out with a new PS update, but know that they have some hanging and font related issues that have been the most visible problems that they have mentioned working on.

As for the vendor color matching option, I don't know specifically what it means, but it is always grayed out when PS manages color, so I suspect that it is just a variation of how the printer manages color.  The ultimate, best solution is to sort out why PS color management is not working for you.  

I have one more possible "smoking gun" to suggest.  Is there a chance that the profile you are selecting in Photoshop is a ICC Version 4 profile?

http://dtg-support.digitalminds.com/index....eid=7&nav=0

You haven't mentioned a gray background problem, but they say that is only one of the symptoms.  It may be totally unrelated, but I thought I'd mention that this is another new issue that has come up.  Just for grins, do you have another profile for the same media you can try, or can you switch to different media and a different profile.  I could even send you a profile that I know is working if it is one that I have.  It is at least worth looking at this issue.  I don't know how to tell by looking at them whether a profile is v2 or v4.  Perhaps looking at the profile in TextEdit?
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Vlad3
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 04:22:21 PM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Vlad-
I wouldn't discount some printing improvements being sorted out with a new PS update, but know that they have some hanging and font related issues that have been the most visible problems that they have mentioned working on.

As for the vendor color matching option, I don't know specifically what it means, but it is always grayed out when PS manages color, so I suspect that it is just a variation of how the printer manages color.  The ultimate, best solution is to sort out why PS color management is not working for you.  

I have one more possible "smoking gun" to suggest.  Is there a chance that the profile you are selecting in Photoshop is a ICC Version 4 profile?

http://dtg-support.digitalminds.com/index....eid=7&nav=0

You haven't mentioned a gray background problem, but they say that is only one of the symptoms.  It may be totally unrelated, but I thought I'd mention that this is another new issue that has come up.  Just for grins, do you have another profile for the same media you can try, or can you switch to different media and a different profile.  I could even send you a profile that I know is working if it is one that I have.  It is at least worth looking at this issue.  I don't know how to tell by looking at them whether a profile is v2 or v4.  Perhaps looking at the profile in TextEdit?



Hi again,

As you can see I still keep searching for the most reliable printing solution under Snow Leopard and CS5. I tried various recommended patches and eventually gave up on Application Color Management or Automatic Color Sync. Finally I progressed far enough to experiment with VENDOR MATCHING – and this option looks promising!

Here is my most consistent workflow so far:

CS5 PRINT SETTINGS

Printer Manages Colors
Printer Profile: Bright Whiter Bond Paper (selected automatically by the set up)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colorimetric (Black Point unchecked automatically)
Proof Setup: (I do select my paper manually but at this point I’m not sure if it really makes any difference)
Enable 16-bit data
Click on Print Settings

HP DRIVER SETTINGS

Color Matching: VENDOR MATCHING
Color Options:    COLOR MANAGEMENT > PRINTER (!)

Then I hit PREVIEW – and surprisingly the displayed image matches my master monitor and the final HP Z3100 output quite well.

It would be nice to test this workflow also with Canon and Epson printers since they don’t profile papers automatically.

The irony is that VENDOR MATCHING is available only when Printer Manages Colors option is selected in the Print window – and then you can actually choose Application Manages Colors instead…

Would this inconsistency cause double profiling?

The second irony is that HP print summary finally recognizes this command in HP job summary (Application Managed Colors or Printer Color Management).

Anyway, this is my latest report.

Your feedback is always appreciated,

Vlad
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 04:23:52 PM »
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I am not familiar with the HP printer which you are using but may I offer the following observations which may help in diagnosing the problem.

Apple introduced some new printing APIs which are fully implemented in Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS5.  This is what I understand (and I'm by no means an expert on this, just a battle hardened photographer !).

This means that Photoshop and the OS now communicate with each other about whether the application or printer is managing the colour, thus the various greyed-out options depending on what option is selected in Photoshop.  Further 'down the line'  this relies on the printer driver being up-to-date so that the operating system can communicate this information accurately to it, and the driver accurately to the OS.  This may be where your problem lies.

Furthermore, the new APIs have removed the option of 'no colour management' from the printing path (there's a whole lot of posts about this about when trying to print targets for profiling).  Thus ColorSync, which is the part of the Mac OS that performs this function, fails to recognise files without a profile and tries to colour manage them, with disastrous results.  I'm not suggesting that you are trying to print files without a profile but ColorSync's intervention in the printing path may also be a source of your difficulties.  It may be that applying the null transform trick may help you ?  See these links:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/solving.shtml
http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html

I hope this does not serve to confuse but will give food for thought (and ideas for further tests).

Good luck !
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