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Author Topic: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral  (Read 13019 times)
shayaweiss
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« on: June 05, 2010, 08:55:02 PM »
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Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
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ddk
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2010, 02:03:41 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?

This issue with Eizo monitors comes up here regularly and people go crazy trying to fix it. Eizos need a break-in period of about 2 to 3 weeks, the problem will clear itself after this break-in period. Read the older posts, you'll see the pattern of people going nuts over the same issue and then suddenly it's fixed after a couple of weeks.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2010, 03:55:22 AM »
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Hi,

Are your monitors on same computer or two different ones. If same computer, are you using two different graphics card or a single one with two outputs? Which OS are you using?

All these questions matter!

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: shayaweiss
Hi,

I had two pinkish Eizo FlexScan 2233w. I build my profiles with i1D2. The one screen that was very pinkish is about to be exchanged by the vendor. They call it an "uniformity problem". Meanwhile they borrowed me another FlexScan 2233w. This one seams better (but is not uniform in color throughout the screen).

I know that these are not color edge monitors, but I would non the less expect i1 Display 2 to be able to bring them somewhere close to each other.

I was on the phone with x-rite last week, for more than 60 minutes, they gave up!!!

What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2010, 04:33:36 AM »
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Quote from: ddk
This issue with Eizo monitors comes up here regularly and people go crazy trying to fix it. Eizos need a break-in period of about 2 to 3 weeks, the problem will clear itself after this break-in period. Read the older posts, you'll see the pattern of people going nuts over the same issue and then suddenly it's fixed after a couple of weeks.


ddk,

I read the posts here, but all three monitors did already have their break-in period! Also the monitors are pinkish to a different degree.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2010, 04:44:36 AM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Are your monitors on same computer or two different ones. If same computer, are you using two different graphics card or a single one with two outputs? Which OS are you using?

All these questions matter!

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 04:49:01 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2010, 06:38:09 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.

1) Did you calibrate the whitepoint of both displays using OSD "gain" control?

2) I had sometimes encounterd an issue with some nVidia graphic card drivers under Windows - the CMS identifies both displays as the same one, and when you're associating an ICC profile to a display, it's beeing incorrectly associatied to the second display. Check what ICC profiles are associated with each of the displays in system Color Management settings.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 06:39:20 AM by Czornyj » Logged

shayaweiss
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 08:16:29 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
1) Did you calibrate the whitepoint of both displays using OSD "gain" control?

2) I had sometimes encounterd an issue with some nVidia graphic card drivers under Windows - the CMS identifies both displays as the same one, and when you're associating an ICC profile to a display, it's beeing incorrectly associatied to the second display. Check what ICC profiles are associated with each of the displays in system Color Management settings.

1) Yes, I did set the white point with both displays own OSD using the gain control.

2) You are right about this confusion. In the beginning there was a mix up and contradictory information in the Windows system about which one is monitor1 and which profile applies. But after deconnecting and reconnecting numerous times, it now seems to be sorted out. At all levels of system intern info (including in the nVidia graphic card driver), monitor1 is the same monitor and also reacting to the appropriate profile. Same good news for monitor2.

But the problem remains unchanged!
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 08:54:00 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
What could be the problem? Maybe I had just two more or less pinkish monitors and the rental monitor is finally a better one? But still, why can't eye-one bring them closer?
Running two monitors on the same computer introduces a host of issues that are both complex and frustrating to deal with.  Anyone who has done this successfully knows there is so much to consider that trying to help someone who hasn't done it before will take much effort.

To start with your video card appears to be a single GPU single LUT card.  While you can output a signal to two monitors, you can only assign one color profile across both outputs.  Two monitors, even the same make/model that came off the assembly line one after the other.. will need their own profiles.

This is just to start.  And no, please don't tell me it does this and that and a friend was able to do it..  Its just a fact, that if your monitors don't have built-in hardware LUT's then you'll need a graphic card that supports multiple LUT's.  Traditionally we used to say that one GPU equals one LUT and with Nvidia this is still true as far as I know.  ATI has brought things to a new and interesting level with their new 5xxx series cards which can actually handle 3 monitors.  This is recent and so far Nvidia hasn't done this.  Nvidia does sell dual GPU cards.. but yours doesn't appear to be one.

If you want to confirm what I said call Nvidia, ask for their advanced technical help, and ask them if your card has dual LUT's.  Don't bother asking if your card will support two monitors because most of the techs there don't know what a LUT is.. and your card does support two monitors.  It just doesn't support two monitors running two color profiles as the same time..

Once you solve this issue you move on to the next level.. more problems to come..
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 09:42:16 AM »
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Steve,

What you wrote makes even sense to me (only, though I asked, nobody till now told me about this problem with the card, even not the Eizo importer). So, I will try to find another card, either ATI 5xxx series or a dual GPU card. BTW which one would be a good choice?

One thing though: How come that when I change the profile for one monitor it does definitely change only that one monitor? So the system seems to be able to handle two profiles!

Thanks for your help with this
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 10:58:47 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 11:32:00 AM »
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Hi,

Reason I'm asking is that color calibration would normally manipulate the CLUT (Color Look Up Table) on the graphic card. Most graphics card have a single CLUT, as far as I understand. I have not seen this myself, just repeating info I have seen on this forum. I don't think that calibrating dual monitors on Windows with a single graphics card is easy, and may even be impossible.

Also, be sure that you disable Adobe Gamma. Cannot tell how you do that, but I think it may interfere with your intentions.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

The monitors are on the same Win7 64bit 8Ram Desktop Computer with one GeForce GT 220 graphic card, using two DVI connections (one via an HDMI to DVI adaptor). I changed the connections between the monitors, but each one kept his particular tint.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2010, 12:04:50 PM »
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You can simply uninstall Adobe Gamma, Erik, or take it out of the Startup...

With a dual head card there is no problem to calibrate and profile two monitors on a PC. Only I do not have a dual GPU card (I spent already so much on the two monitors). With Windows 7 it is possible to assign two separate profiles, one for each monitor. It's easy and simply. As I said before, you can simply control and change profiles in the advanced settings. I have no problem to change profile for one monitor and visually notice the change only on that one monitor, the other profile remaining in place and no visual changes occur on the other monitor. Everything looks perfectly well, on that side!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 12:05:55 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2010, 12:15:36 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
1) Yes, I did set the white point with both displays own OSD using the gain control.

2) You are right about this confusion. In the beginning there was a mix up and contradictory information in the Windows system about which one is monitor1 and which profile applies. But after deconnecting and reconnecting numerous times, it now seems to be sorted out. At all levels of system intern info (including in the nVidia graphic card driver), monitor1 is the same monitor and also reacting to the appropriate profile. Same good news for monitor2.

But the problem remains unchanged!

Eizo S2233W is very well linearized, so if there's still a magenta cast after calibration of wtpt via internal LUT of the display, I'd guess it's a matter of i1d2 colorimeter drawback.

Try out this profiler:
http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php
It has some correction matrix for i1d2 colorimeter and extended gamut CCFL backlight spectra, so there's a chance it'll do a better job (don't forget to choose "wide gamut optimization>generic wide gamut S-IPS" option)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 12:18:26 PM by Czornyj » Logged

shayaweiss
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 12:20:38 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Eizo S2233W is very well linearized, so if there's still a magenta cast after calibration of wtpt via internal LUT of the display, I'd guess it's a matter of i1d2 colorimeter drawback.

Try out this profiler:
http://www.quato.de/german/software-display.php
It has some correction matrix for i1d2 colorimeter and extended gamut CCFL backlight spectra, so there's a chance it'll do a better job

I am on the way to try this profiler. Thanks Czorny!

Just how could it be that i1D2 has a problem with ONE monitor a lot more than with the other?
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2010, 12:49:49 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Weldon
To start with your video card appears to be a single GPU single LUT card.

Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 12:51:18 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2010, 01:10:54 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
I am on the way to try this profiler. Thanks Czorny!

I just installed the software. It seems a bit old and there is no way I could try it out if it works, as all the functions are locked until you buy it....
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2010, 01:36:40 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!

This would be correct though I'm not familiar with this monitor.  If it has its own internal hardware LUT   AND  you're using the proper software which is designed to access these LUT's then you should be able to get this to work with your current video card PROVIDING .. well.. a lot.. I'll run through a few things.  I've been running dual monitors side by side (identical models.. I'm now running two NEC LCD2690uxi2's..) for over ten years on various versions of Windows so it can indeed be done.  This is what I do..

1.  Uninstall anything but the base driver.  Go to msconfig.sys and your startup tray and disable anything from Nvidia but the base driver.  This is to start.  Later you can enable the extra stuff (the programs that enable you to adjust brightneess/color/contrast/etc) if you wish and see what if anything is causing an issue.

2.  Totally clear all current profiles from the Windows Color Management applet.  You'll find this under the Control Panel.  Yes, I know the color profile program should replace these.. but I've discovered funny things can happen which shouldn't during this exchange.  Start with a blank slate for both monitors.  Also go to windows/system32/spool/drivers/color and delete all your old profiles.

3.  Unplug your LAN cable or wireless card from the internet.

4.   Disable your virus checker or malware programs if any.

5.  Reboot, ensure you're running on the base video card driver only with no extras, the color manager is clear, and that your virus checkers are disabled.

6.  Run the color profiler software Eizo recommends to access the internal hardware LUT's for these monitors.. and follow their directions exactly.  Make sure the 1i2 is firmly but not pressed on the screen.   Either tilt your screens back so gravity does this.. or I personally use my back scratcher to lean on it.. ;o)


This is a start.. now.. Even with two like monitors there WILL be some white point variances between the two monitors which will be visible if you span a white background box across both monitors.. you'll find the colors and grays will look fine (if you did it right) but the whites can be off which is inconsequential.. but irritating.  NEC SVII provides a means to correct this small difference by eye.. and it works as advertised in every mode but sRGB Emulation.. an issue I'll be contacting NEC about this week as I'm just now setting my new 2690's..

Now.. you're going to find some weird differences attributed to Windows and Windows programs.  For instance.. some applications will pick up the proper profile if you drag the application from one monitor to the other.. others won't.  You'll need to learn which are which.  Just know that when it happens it's not necessarily an issue with your color setup.  Windows Explorer on the second monitor.. if displaying thumbnails and if you're using a wide gamut monitor.. might display those thumbnails with a very high saturated look.. but when you click on them and bring them up in your viewer of choice they'll be fine (provided your viewer of choice is color aware).. so don't worry about it..

There's a bucket load of other small issues and discrepancies when using two monitors.. once you get past the LUT issue you'll discover these.  But over all when processing images in the main image programs you'll be fine.

I'm using dual ATI 5770 cards and use one per monitor even though each card supposedly handles 3 LUT's.. and even though the monitors have internal LUT's and I'm using them via SVII.  I do this because I get less issues with the smaller stuff.. and because I also run a 1080p 50" HDTV for soft proofing with clients.. and yes a HDTV properly profiled can (providing its a quality unit) can display exact colors.. but how you color profile a HDTV depends on which input you're using and for what purpose.. each input (HDMI for PC, HDMI for media player box, HDMI for Blue-ray, cable box, etc, etc) needs to be separately adjusted and in different ways using different gear.. but thats another story..

Good luck.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 01:39:52 PM by Steve Weldon » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2010, 01:49:50 PM »
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Hi,

You need dual head if you want to use both displays on the same computer at the same time.  Some short points:

1) More expensive monitors have hardware calibration. You connect the measuring device to the monitor and it takes care of the calibration.
2) All monitors do have internal luts but normally calibration software cannot handle that. Certain software may work with certain monitors.
3) There are two steps involved:

- Calibration sets up the monitor
- Characterization tells CM aware application what has been achieved

My experience has been that using two displays on Windows was problematic, at least with XP. On Mac it seems to work but it may be broken, it's hard to know.

This is what I hate with Color Management. It seems simple but there are a lot of small cobolts hiding in the detail, you never know if any of those bytes you.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,
Czorny just reminded me that I forgot to tell you that each Eiso s2233W monitor has his own LUT. So if I understand correctly, I don't even need a dual head video card?!
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2010, 01:55:43 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Weldon
This would be correct though I'm not familiar with this monitor.  If it has its own internal hardware LUT   AND  you're using the proper software which is designed to access these LUT's then you should be able to get this to work with your current video card PROVIDING .. well.. a lot.. I'll run through a few things.  I've been running dual monitors side by side (identical models.. I'm now running two NEC LCD2690uxi2's..) for over ten years on various versions of Windows so it can indeed be done.  This is what I do..

I double checked the specks for the s2233W on the Eizo Website ( http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W ) and it says "Look-up table: 10 bits per color".

About the software I am not sure. There is something called "Screen manager Pro", which is basically the OSD of the display ?!
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2010, 02:55:00 PM »
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I thank everyone for their explanations and patience. There are still three points I don't get:

1) regarding Windows 7: In the advanced display settings, there is access to something called "color management". You assign a profile to each monitor, and as I described, it DOES work perfectly well. It assigns one profile to one monitor only, while leaving the other monitor at its setting.

2) i1D2 calibration makes the monitors ALWAYS look worse.

3) There is NO visual difference in appearance when I calibrate the monitors separately, in a single monitor setup (Deleting all previous profiles, uninstalling everything related, rebooting...) where it should realy not matter whether there is a dual head card or LUT, and whether the monitors are to be calibrated via hardware or software.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 02:57:14 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2010, 03:29:27 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
I double checked the specks for the s2233W on the Eizo Website ( http://www.eizo.com/global/iblick/spec/?id=S2233W ) and it says "Look-up table: 10 bits per color".

About the software I am not sure. There is something called "Screen manager Pro", which is basically the OSD of the display ?!
Unless an Eizo user speaks up here.. I would call Eizo and ask them what software they recommend that takes advantage of the hardware LUT's.. and to ensure they indeed have hardware LUT's.  12i does not access internal LUT's.. it uses the LUT's on graphics cards and if you're using their software I can almost guarantee you.. with your video card it won't work.

Let me be very clear on something and I'm not trying to be controlling or a smartass or anything.. but explaining this stuff to you takes significant time and effort.  The reason most people who have this knowledge don't answer posts like yours is because usually the OP doesn't listen, argues, or says thank you and then listens to the easiest answer instead of putting in the work and effort we know it takes.  If you're willing to follow 'exactly' the steps I recommend I don't mind helping.. but if you're just fishing for the easiest answers then I'm wasting my time.  Its my opinion.. many people end up with something they're loosely satisfied with but never really understand it.. and it's a period of time.. sometimes years.. until they move up to their next level.. until they realize they've been doing it wrong all along.  So yes, an easy answer might get you something you can live with for now.. maybe.. but to do this right there really is only one path to take..   Your choice.

Like I said.. the first steps..

1.  Call Eizo and confirm your model of monitor has or does not have internal LUT's, and exactly what software can access them.  If you have internal LUT's you'll want to use them over anything else.

2.  If you don't have internal LUT's the next step is to call Nvidia and confirm if your card had dual LUT's or not.  I'm almost positive it does not.. but never take anyones word for these things.. and be careful what technician you listen to at Nvidia.. if they go "LUT what?" or hesitate in anyway.. or doesn't know immediately what you're talking about.. then ask to talk to a senior/advanced tech.. because all that guy will do is read the same manual you've already read.. and probably come up with the wrong answer.
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