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Author Topic: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral  (Read 14296 times)
shayaweiss
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 03:51:38 PM »
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Steve,

I thank you again for your time and patience! Please do take my word that I sit in front of this problem for a view days (including the whole weekend without interruption trying to read up more), that I phoned and called all the support and assistances I could get, including a week ago an hour long conversation with X-rite tech support and Eizo... It costs me a lot of time, money and fatigue. That's why I am thankful for help like your's, because you definitely do seam do have some answers.

To the point:
*** EIZO monitor. I know that one can NOT perform hardware calibration on these s2233w.

*** GeForce GT220 supports the use of two ICC profiles for separate monitors, according to an offical paper on the Nvidia Customer help website ( http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia....eHQ9ZHVhbCBsdXQ! )

Quote
Does NVIDIA support (LUT) Look Up Tables for display calibration purposes?
     Question
     

Does NVIDIA support (LUT) Look Up Tables for display calibration using ICC profiles?
     Answer
     

Yes, you can load an ICC profile for the primary or secondary monitors, and use a professional publishing application to perform color matching based on information in the ICC profiles.  To use two ICC profiles for separate monitors, you will need attach and calibrate one monitor at a time with a Colorimeter.  You can then load the profile in the Windows Color Control Panel.

Windows XP

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...;displaylang=en

Windows 7 / Vista
Windows 7 / Vista

   1. Click Start
      Collapse this imageExpand this image
       
      the Start button, and then type Color Management in the Start Search box.
   2. Click Color Management under Programs.
   3. In the Color Management dialog box, click the Devices tab, and then click the display that is experiencing the problem. For example, click Display: Generic PnP Monitor.
   4. Make sure that the Use my settings for this device check box is selected.
   5. In the Profiles Associated with this Device list, addl the profile. To remove a profile, select the profile, and then click Remove.
   6. Click Close.

They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 03:58:11 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 04:55:09 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I thank you again for your time and patience! Please do take my word that I sit in front of this problem for a view days (including the whole weekend without interruption trying to read up more), that I phoned and called all the support and assistances I could get, including a week ago an hour long conversation with X-rite tech support and Eizo... It costs me a lot of time, money and fatigue. That's why I am thankful for help like your's, because you definitely do seam do have some answers.

To the point:
*** EIZO monitor. I know that one can NOT perform hardware calibration on these s2233w.


They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
Ok then.. there is a start.

Let me say this.. I understand you've spent a lot of time talking to support.. but when they're problem solving and working in a general nature information can take on different context..

I would recommend you make one more call to Eizo and confirm these monitors do not have a hardware LUT.

If this is confirmed then we know this.

1.  You need a video card which can handle two video LUT's.

2.  You can use standard calibration software like that which came with your 1i2..


Now.. if this is all confirmed we can now look at your video card more closely.  If you read carefully the Nvidia text you posted it DOES say you can assign two ICC profiles.  What it DOES NOT say is that the card is cable of assigning them both at the same time.  A fine but important difference.   Your video card LUT is one part of this issue I'm almost positive on.. it will only support one LUT at a time..

Let's assume this is the case.  Now there is the need to find a video card(s) that do support 2 LUT's.   There are several ways to achieve this.  You can simply add another 220 (providing you have the slot on your motherboard), you can replace your existing 220 with  dual head Nvideo card.. or you can buy a ATI card.

I used to use Nvidia for years as their drivers were more refined and less trouble prone than ATI.  However, in the last 18 months ATI drivers have grown to be equal to or better than Nvidia (imo) and their hardware easily is better for our purposes.

Are you a gamer?  If not and your graphic card needs are only concerned with image processing.. then there is no need to spend much money.  A $100 ATI 5400 for instance will work just fine for you.  If you are a gamer then balance your budget vs performance and see where you end up.

Now.. lets say you end up with an ATI card.  This part is important so note it or write it down.  Before removing your Nvidia card use your program manager to completely remove all Nvidia software and driver and reboot the machine to make sure its running the stock windows driver.  Once you confirm this.. then power down your machine and replace the cards, boot it up, install the ATI software/drivers, and then reboot again.  Now you're ready to profile.


The steps above are exactly what I would do.  At this stage you want to get this working and stop wasting your time.. and with something like this.. carefully following the steps will get you there faster than trying to take shortcuts..  Trust me on this one.. Follow the above steps and then post in this thread and tell us where you're at.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 04:55:57 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
They say to use a Colorimeter. Does it mean you can't use a spectrometer?
A colorimeter will work fine.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 06:11:43 PM »
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Hi,

I think "shayaweiss" has a spectro, is that OK?


Erik


Quote from: Steve Weldon
A colorimeter will work fine.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 06:18:59 PM »
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Steve,

I tried to find a card following your advise, and found one, actually two, in my computer store next door. They have two cards for the same price,

one with a HD5450 (it's a ATI Radeon form what I understand)
 # I/O Output: DL-DVI-I,HDMI,VGA
 # Core clock: 650MHz
 # Memory Clock: 1600MHz Effective
 # 1024MB / 64-bit DDR3 memory interface
 # PCI-E x16 (PCI-E 2.1) interface
 # Single slot passive heatsink
 # Software CrossFire
 # Board Dimension: 168mm(W) x 72.87mm(H) x25(D)mm

and one with Chipset NVIDIA GeForce 9500GT (GV-N95TOC-1GH)
 # Chipset NVIDIA GeForce 9500GT
 # Memory 1GB
 # Memory Bus 128 bit
 # Memory Type GDDR2
 # Card dimension ATX
 # Bus Type PCI-E 2.0
 # Bus Speed x16
 # D-SUB Y (By Adapter)
 # TV-OUT Yes
 # DVI Port Y (DVI-I)
 # Multi View Yes

P.S.:
Quote from: Steve Weldon
Are you a gamer?
Not at all, sorry.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 06:27:01 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 06:23:53 PM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I think "shayaweiss" has a spectro, is that OK?


Erik
Erik,

No, I do only have a simple eye-one Display 2, which is a colorimeter, and unfortunately not a spectrometer. I was just wondering if, according to Nvidia, a i1Pro would not work?!

Shaya
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 06:43:25 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 10:35:42 PM »
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Shaya,

I don't know. The way things are, there is some software coming with your colorimeter/spectro. If you want to use other software you need to check what colorimeters are supported. According to Karl Lang (a real guru) colorimeters with proper software may be the preferable option.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: shayaweiss
Erik,

No, I do only have a simple eye-one Display 2, which is a colorimeter, and unfortunately not a spectrometer. I was just wondering if, according to Nvidia, a i1Pro would not work?!

Shaya
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2010, 11:39:43 PM »
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Erik,

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
According to Karl Lang (a real guru) colorimeters with proper software may be the preferable option.

which software? I downloaded Quato yesterday. Looks good, but without paying, there is no way to tell whether it actually works.

P.S.: Also, the more I look at my two Eizos, the more I want to get rid of them! Why? Not because of the tint, which, with Steve Weldon's advises and help, I am confident, will go away. But because, I quote from Eizo's Website "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen". They say that these "are a common trait of LCD monitors". I did not buy common monitors for that price. Maybe I should give them both back, and get one CG222W for the money. They are not common, according to Eizo. I could use one of my other monitors, like my cheap LG monitor, as second monitor. Is the CG222W really a better screen? It uses hardware calibration. The panel though, is the same VA style according to the Eizo documentation...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 11:42:38 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 06:13:05 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I tried to find a card following your advise, and found one, actually two, in my computer store next door. They have two cards for the same price,

one with a HD5450 (it's a ATI Radeon form what I understand)
Of the cards you listed the ATI imo is far preferable.  The 5450 is an inexpensive passive cooled card that should easily run two monitors.   They say three but I've only tested this type with two.  

There is one caveat here.. the conventional wisdom is that if you don't play games you won't benefit from a faster more powerful graphics card.. say a ATI 5770..  

It is true that gamers benefit from more powerful and faster video cards.  However, pages still need to be rendered and with CS4/5 and possibly LR in the future benefiting from OpenGL and more video memory.. it is my experience that even for images you will benefit from a more powerful card.

However, there is a very real point of marginal returns.  Personally I drew the line at ATI 5770 cards which are a sort of sweet spot in their lineup.  For $149 USD's it's quite a lot of card.  I don't think I'm using all it's power for imaging, but I know it's using more than a 5450 and it's only a $50 difference.. so consider this.

Also consider, the ATI cards are sold by many manufacturers in both single and dual slot configs.. A dual slot card will have two DVI ports, 1 hdmi, and 1 displayport.  If I had two DVI monitors I would want a dual slot card and to not use an adapter.

Hold off on pre-judging the Eizo's.  A proper video card, quality cabling, and correct profiling can totally change the look of a monitor.  You'll need to do all these things for a dual monitor setup regardless.. so lets get this done first and THEN tell us how you like the Eizo's..
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 11:03:38 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Weldon
Personally I drew the line at ATI 5770 cards

OK, me too. I got the card, and I am about to download and install the latest drivers for Windows 7 64bit.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2010, 11:40:14 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
OK, me too. I got the card, and I am about to download and install the latest drivers for Windows 7 64bit.

Done. I am going to calibrate now. Unfortunately, there is one thing though I can already tell you.  The two monitors still have the terrible "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen".
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 11:41:15 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2010, 12:02:24 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Done. I am going to calibrate now. Unfortunately, there is one thing though I can already tell you.  The two monitors still have the terrible "fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen".
You followed the directions for removing the old drivers first ?

There are two issues here.

1.  Being able to apply a profile to two monitors at the same time.

2.  Whether or not your current monitors are of the quality you want.


Lets take care of 1 first.  Then we'll go from there.

BTW -  Did you get the version of the 5770 that allowed 2 DVI ports so your adapter is now out of the picture?  Eliminating this sort of thing (adapters) is much desirable.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2010, 12:39:30 PM »
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Steve,

Quote from: Steve Weldon
You followed the directions for removing the old drivers first ?

I completed the procedure
Quote from: Steve Weldon
Before removing your Nvidia card use your program manager to completely remove all Nvidia software and driver and reboot the machine to make sure its running the stock windows driver. Once you confirm this.. then power down your machine and replace the cards, boot it up, install the ATI software/drivers, and then reboot again. Now you're ready to profile.
and maybe I over did it, because I already profiled unsuccessfully. Should I delete those profiles?

Quote from: Steve Weldon
There are two issues here.
1.  Being able to apply a profile to two monitors at the same time.

2.  Whether or not your current monitors are of the quality you want.


Lets take care of 1 first.  Then we'll go from there.

BTW -  Did you get the version of the 5770 that allowed 2 DVI ports so your adapter is now out of the picture?  Eliminating this sort of thing (adapters) is much desirable.

Yes, I got the version with the two DVI ports. The card is a ATI Radeon HD5770:
# I/O Output: Dual DL-DVI-I+DP+HDMI, Triple Display Support
# Core Clock: 850 MHz
# Memory Clock: Effective 4800 MHz
# PCI Express 2.1 x16 bus interface
# 1024MB /128bit GDDR5 memory interface
# Dual Slot Cooler with Auto Fan Control
# On-board HDMI, supports HDMI 1.3 with High Bitrate Audio
# On-board DisplayPort
# Maximum Board Power: 108 Watt; Idle Board Power: 18 Watt

Again, thank you for helping me with this.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 12:41:20 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2010, 12:51:54 PM »
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Steve,

Do you use the overdrive off the video card?
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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2010, 03:39:03 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,



I completed the procedure

and maybe I over did it, because I already profiled unsuccessfully. Should I delete those profiles?
Go back to where I explained how to remove the old drivers and make sure you did this.. and then where I explained how to remove the old profiles and do that too.  ONLY remove the profiles you made.. not everything in the directory.

Pay particular attention to where I said the color manager (windows color manager) should be totally empty when you start this procedure.

It is important you start with a fresh driver set, no profiles, and nothing in color manager.. and that you've freshed rebooted before you start installing these items.

Once fresh and ready install the drivers (forgot about Catyalst and the other stuff for now.. they're not needed.  Just install the base driver package.  That's it.   Reboot.

Clean the color manager.  Reboot.

Profile your monitors.  Reboot.

By reboot.. I mean a power off reboot.. not a reset.  There is a difference and the difference isn't always consistent.

I'm assuming you're using Eye One Match 3 with your 1i2?  if not, go to xrite.com and download it and use it.  

And as I said.. forgot the extras that ATI supplies in their deluxe color package.  All you want for now are the base drivers.  Once we get this working right then you can go back (if you want) and installl the extra stuff.

Take your time... don't rush.. one thing at a time.

It's 0330am here in Bangkok and I'm going to bed because I have a full day workshop to teach in the morning.  I'll check back on the forum in about 18 hours and see how you're doing.  

Good luck.
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2010, 03:41:54 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

Do you use the overdrive off the video card?
Yes I do.  But for now lets now.  We don't want to add anything that may cause issues at this point.

Once you're up on two monitors and happy.. then you can install the extra software, use the overdrive overclocking profiles, etc.. one thing at a time.. so if things stop working right you'll know what caused it.

Remember to unplug from the internet and turn off your virus software when doing the profiles..
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2010, 12:16:53 AM »
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Steve,

I followed step by step your procedure, but there is not much, if any change. Let's say everything looks and reacts exactly like with the Nvidia card. I did try again and again, every thinkable configuration, and procedure variation. In the end, I even installed a trial version of the latest BasicColor Display. Doesn't help either.  As mentioned above, for Quato's iColor display there is no trail version, that I could have run. Also I do not own any other measuring device but the i1 Display 2.
Both screens still have their magenta/pinkish tint. One very slight, the other one very strong, but not as strong as the third one, which the distributor already agreed to take back, because of an "uniformity problem". Not one of these last three Eizo s2233w is uniform in color or brightness. All this is not only visible on a white background, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable, and disturbing, while editing images.
BTW not only the place where I bought these wide-gamut Eizo FlexScan Monitors, but also the Eizo Website, advertises them as suitable for photography! I don't understand...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 12:26:56 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2010, 02:45:59 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
As mentioned above, for Quato's iColor display there is no trail version, that I could have run. Also I do not own any other measuring device but the i1 Display 2.
Both screens still have their magenta/pinkish tint. One very slight, the other one very strong, but not as strong as the third one, which the distributor already agreed to take back, because of an "uniformity problem". Not one of these last three Eizo s2233w is uniform in color or brightness. All this is not only visible on a white background, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable, and disturbing, while editing images.
BTW not only the place where I bought these wide-gamut Eizo FlexScan Monitors, but also the Eizo Website, advertises them as suitable for photography! I don't understand...

There's an iColor display trial - you need to register and download a 10 day licence file.

There's a problem with mura on wide gamut CCFL and RGB LED displays, so all displays for color critical applications (such as Eizo CG, NEC PA, or Quato IntelliProof series) have electronic uniformity compensation. I'd also wouldn't recommend a S-PVA type display for dual monitor work, it slightly changes colors if you don't look straight at it.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2010, 04:04:45 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I followed step by step your procedure, but there is not much, if any change. Let's say everything looks and reacts exactly like with the Nvidia card. I did try again and again, every thinkable configuration, and procedure variation. In the end, I even installed a trial version of the latest BasicColor D
Shaya -

FULL STOP..   I need you to be very patient and very methodical.. Every time you install new stuff and try new things you're 'polluting' your install and those new things you tried become potential issues.  Lets just do one thing at a time okay?

1.  I've read the manual for your monitor and done some simple google searches on profiling a Flexscan.. there's nothing like taking advantage of someone else's knowledge.

2.  When we first started this you mentioned a 10 bit LUT and I asked you to call Eizo and confirm if your system had hardware LUT's and DDC and if so what software they recommend for calibration.. and you said they didn't.  I'm still not sure about the hardware LUT but it does appear (page 26 of your manual) you have DDC which is a communication link between your PC and your monitor via the DVI port (providing you are using the DVI cables that came with your monitors so the link can be activated (see how your HDMI-DVI adapter was at least part of the problem?)) and is typically used for screen adjustment and the transfer of LUT tables.   I don't know and can't tell without talking to Eizo if you indeed have hardware LUT's though the listing of a 10 bit LUT and DDC both point in that direction.

What this means is you can't profile this monitor like you would an average monitor without DDC and hardware LUT's.  To do is effectively adding a layer of color adjustment on top of another layer of adjustment... and the results are bound to be one screwed up looking screen.. which is what you're describing.

3.  All this told me that at a minimum there is a very specific piece of software to be used to communicate with your monitor..   and it turns out there is.

4.  A brief Google turned up this gem of knowledge:  http://www.imagescience.com.au/kb/question...ne+Display+2%29 which is basically the exact instructions on how to color profile a Flexscan using the provided Eizo software AND the 1i2 hardware puck you already have.   Why the hell Eizo didn't lead you down this same path boggles the mind.. except like I said before, most of these techs who answer the phone are people with no experience on the subject and ten minutes of training on how to follow an interactive computer troubleshooting procedure.. sad really..

5.  Below are my recommendations.  It would be helpful if you followed them exactly AND THEN STOP AND DO NOTHING ELSE UNTIL WE CHAT AGAIN..

     a.  Clean your system of all color profiling software, color profiles, and video card extras other than the base video card drivers.

      b.  Reboot, double check your clean.

      c.  Turn off the second monitor and lets just calibrate one monitor and make it look right for now.

      d.  Follow the instructions exactly that are in the link I provided above.

      e.  If the monitor ends up looking correct.. go ahead and do the second one.  IF NOT, STOP AND DON'T DO ANYTHING MORE.

6.   Keep in mind that this is a wide gamut monitor.  Wide gamut monitors will show very saturated reds/pinks when viewing mismatched profiles.  If you work primarily in sRGB then you should be using the sRGB mode of your monitor and profiling it as such.  All your files should then have the sRGB color space tagged.  

7.  Explain exactly what you mean by "pink uneven cast."  is this when viewing an image, or if you put a white box up across the screen?  

8.  Slow down.. one step at a time..  Eizo is a very good company and I seriously doubt they're putting out monitors with severe color casts.. especially that you would get three of them.  These are not crap monitors.. even their cheap stuff are very good compared to the average.  The chances are something isn't being done right..


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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2010, 06:38:51 AM »
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Steve,

I did as you said, and had to stop after the first monitor calibration, because of the two known issues. The magenta tint is much more pronounced on the right side than on the left side of the screen, where it even seems to have a slight greenish cast. A view people did already have a look at it and confirmed the reality of these color problems. One of the three monitors has already been taken back because of that reason.

The software, called the Screen Manager, is nothing else but a GUI for the Monitor OSD. Has the same functions and does the same thing. Also since the new video card, it does not work properly anymore. All possible color adjustments are now grayed out. I tried to uninstall and reinstall, but that won't help. So I use the OSD of the monitor. (Yes, I use the DVI connection and also the monitors are connected via USB)

Except this last point, the procedure described in the document you referred me to, is a standard procedure, and is what I always did till now. I none the less followed it from there scrupulously.

Regarding sRGB, my whole work flow is in ProPhotoRGB, from Raw to Print, and I get stunning results! I don't work for the Web.

The pink uneven cast, is, as I said, not only visible on a white box up across the screen, but also on my middle gray desktop and even easily noticeable and disturbing, while editing images. I am mainly doing portraiture in studio, so I have peoples faces half pinkish and half greenish. As is, the monitors are useless to me regarding color. The only workaround is, as I know that my colors are spot on, not to edit the colors in anyway, except when soft proofing, but that's something else.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 06:43:53 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
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