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Author Topic: Dual Eizo Calibration: one pinkish, one neutral  (Read 14008 times)
shayaweiss
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2010, 11:45:09 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
There's an iColor display trial - you need to register and download a 10 day licence file.

There's a problem with mura on wide gamut CCFL and RGB LED displays, so all displays for color critical applications (such as Eizo CG, NEC PA, or Quato IntelliProof series) have electronic uniformity compensation. I'd also wouldn't recommend a S-PVA type display for dual monitor work, it slightly changes colors if you don't look straight at it.

Czornyj,

Actualy, you have to write them, in order to register for a a trial. I did it and promptly got a trial license!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:45:37 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2010, 11:58:09 AM »
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There is maybe one point that I didn't stress enough. To my eyes, the tint always appears far stronger after the newly build eye-one display 2 profile has been applied.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2010, 03:22:40 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
There is maybe one point that I didn't stress enough. To my eyes, the tint always appears far stronger after the newly build eye-one display 2 profile has been applied.
Ok.. so regardless of 1 vs. 2 monitors.. you're not even getting one profiled correctly?

I was under the impression you were having trouble getting two monitors to match and I'm fairly confident you're now set up to do this.  For grins I hooked up two standard (non-DDC) monitors to a x64 Win7 box with a 5770 card and they indeed profile properly and look the same side by side.  

Yes, the link I gave lists the standard routine but it emphasizes using the custom mode.  I'm sure you did this?

If you're monitors are as bad as you say they are you need to get Eizo involved.  It just seems so odd you're get 3 monitors from a quality company that have these same issues to varying degrees if I understand you right.

Now it's time to isolate hardware.  Have you hooked these up to another computer, a laptop maybe, and verified the tint/cast is independent of the machine?  That would be the next step.. connect it to any other computer and see if that tint/cast is there and if you can properly profile just a single monitor.

One thing.. when you say that after the 1i2 calibration routine the tint/cast is much stronger.. this really sounds like a profile being applied on top of another profile.  And you want the ATI software choices to be grayed out.. if you're setting colors/setting there AND using the profile.. then this would be your problem.. or at least 'a' problem.

I suppose it's also possible your 1i2 is out of whack.  Test it on another machine and see if it's currently working as it should.

Its possible 3 high-quality monitors all have the same issue.. but it just seems so unlikely.. especially if they're all from different ages/batches.  Try another monitor on your machine, try the Eizo's on a different machine, and try your 1i2 puck on another machine.  Lets fine out what's going on.. you've got me hooked now..
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2010, 04:11:42 PM »
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Steve,

I have big news !

Yes, not one monitor seemed (past tense !) correct. And yes, I do use the costume mode.

I did already hook up the monitors to other computers and laptops. The problem persisted, BUT I always used the same i1D2 with same x-rite software ColorMatch3. Also, when I edit the profiles white point by eyeballing, I can make the monitors match (more or less)!

So I tried SOMETHING NEW which was already suggested by Czornyj and Erik Kaffehr. I tried other calibration software, like BasicColor Display 4 and Quato's iColor Display 3.

First, I gave a serious try for iColor Display 3. Guess what! The monitors never where that close before (It's almost perfect)! The tint is almost completely gone! Even the uniformity on each screen greatly improved (it's still not good enough though).

WOW

iColor has an Wide Gamut S-PVA correction tool. Maybe that helped? The closest match to my paper white (Epson's Exhibition Fiber Paper) in a JUST ColorMaster I got with a target of 5800K, Gamma L*, Luminance maximum (which is the very high 100% factory setting), Black evidently set to minimum. It also profiled nicely with a very nice and delicate curve.
Before I started I reset my RGB values on the Monitor. With this kind of Eizo it seems to best work with foctory settings for luminance and contrast. I always have to double check that the RGB presets K-temperature is set to OFF. The gamme set to 2.2 produces straighter curves. Saturation and Hue are evidently set to 0. The calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option.

Netx I want to see if BasicColor Display 4 does as good or better. But in a first run, though the software appears of a better and more solid make, the results where not as good. But let's see with identical settings for the calibration for the same target white point.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 04:21:38 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2010, 04:45:06 PM »
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Good news!

Don't use L* TRC as your calibration target it's not good for S-series, it's factory calibrated to gamma 2,2

I'd also give another try to OSD RGB gain control - just try to achieve the highiest possible RGB % values, usually I get something like R100%, G91%, B94%, but there's no rule.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2010, 04:53:48 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Good news!
indeed!

Quote
Don't use L* TRC as your calibration target it's not good for S-series, it's factory calibrated to gamma 2,2
You are right and it makes sens. I'll try that.

Quote
I'd also give another try to OSD RGB gain control - just try to achieve the highiest possible RGB % values, usually I get something like R100%, G91%, B94%, but there's no rule.

That's what I did and ment by saying that "the calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option".

Czerny do you maybe know how much that piece of software costs without a puck? I can't find any price.

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Czornyj
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« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2010, 05:03:05 PM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
That's what I did and ment by saying that "the calibration is than simply done with the RGB gain option".

Czerny do you maybe know how much that piece of software costs without a puck? I can't find any price.

Excuse me, I must have misunderstood something

The software costs about 110-120euro:
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/Offers...play-quato.html
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2010, 05:21:54 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj

They all deliver only inside the EU, where I do not live. Also I do not need no DVD etc for which I ave to pay astronomic delivery charges. I already downloaded the software, so I just need a Licence.

Also the software does not allow for hardware calibration (except for Quato's own monitors). basICColor display 4 can do hardware calibration. But I now tried basICColor again and it is not able to get rid of the color cast as does Quato's software! So for one of the problems with my FlexScan Eizo's, iColor display 3 is for the moment the only option to make it better, not resolve it. As to why all this occurs? Maybe anyone can enlighten me?!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 10:28:24 PM by shayaweiss » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2010, 02:14:29 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
They all deliver only inside the EU, where I do not live. Also I do not need no DVD etc for which I ave to pay astronomic delivery charges. I already downloaded the software, so I just need a Licence.

Also the software does not allow for hardware calibration (except for Quato's own monitors). basICColor display 4 can do hardware calibration. But I now tried basICColor again and it is not able to get rid of the color cast as does Quato's software! So for one of the problems with my FlexScan Eizo's, iColor display 3 is for the moment the only option to make it better, not resolve it. As to why all this occurs? Maybe anyone can enlighten me?!

basICColor display allows for hardware calibration only if you have european NEC Spectraview, or Eizo CG series display. Try to contact Quato dealer: http://www.quato.de/english/wheretobuy.php

The problem is, that the pseudo-XYZ colorimeter tries to mimic the XYZ function of spectral sensitivity of human eye, but it's not perfect, so you need a correction matrix for certain colorimeter, and the spectra of the display. The i1match software has only generic correction matrixes for CRT and LCD spectra, but it doesn't work well with the wide gamut CCFL, LED and RGB LED backlight that have different spectral characteristic. basICColor aka Spectraview profiler, iColor display and Eizo Color Navigator have these correction matrixes for popular colorimeters and NEC Spectraview/Eizo CG/Quato Intelli Proof series, but only iColor display has also some generic correction matrixes for generic wide gamut S-IPS/S-PVA displays, that can be applied manually. The other solution is to use Spectrophotometer like ColorMunki or Eye One Pro rather than pseudo-XYZ colorimeter - problem is that Eye One Pro is expansive, and Color Munki has limited display calibration functions (and it's also not that cheap, either)...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 02:24:54 AM by Czornyj » Logged

John R Smith
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« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2010, 02:39:19 AM »
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I have been following this topic with interest.

Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John
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Czornyj
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« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2010, 02:48:54 AM »
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Quote from: John R Smith
I have been following this topic with interest.

Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John

More or less, mura is always a problem on wide gamut CCFL/RGB LED display. It just became less visible after calibration.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2010, 04:57:52 AM »
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Quote from: John R Smith
Something I really do not understand here, is how changing the calibration software could possibly make any difference to a monitor which was displaying an uneven hue shift from one side of the screen to the other (magenta to green in this case). I accept that it did, but you would have thought that this would have to be a hardware problem with the panel itself.

John,

There are two, I believe distinct, problems I have with the three EIZO FlexScan 2233W I had till now. One of them might be caused by x-rite's i1 Display 2 and/or the display calibration software eye-one Match3 that comes with this colorimeter puck:

[blockquote]- A strong overall magenta cast, which varies in intensity from screen to screen, appears after profiling with my i1D2 used with Match3. I can greatly diminish this hue shift through visual calibration or, albeit to a lesser degree, by using Quato's iColor display 3. BasICColor display 4 couldn't help me here. So, as suggested by Czornyj, this might be an issue with the i1d2/Match3 combination and wide-gamut monitors.

- This magenta cast itself is uneven. There are more greenish zones of fluctuations in brightness and chroma on different parts of the screen. Like Czornyj said, through calibration it is possible to slightly attenuate this very annoying uneven hue shift. I noticed that, when I set my target white point close to, or at, the native color temperature the fluctuations are maybe a little bit less intrusive.[/blockquote]

I want to add that these issues, with a monitor advertised as suitable for photographic work, evidently do cause me real life problems when doing simple image editing and naturally when soft proofing.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 06:49:37 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
John R Smith
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« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2010, 06:56:43 AM »
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Colour Confidence, a leading monitor supplier in the UK, only rates the Eizo 2233W at two stars (out of five). They comment -

"2 Star LCD monitors

The LCD monitors we have selected for our 2 Star range include models from leading manufacturers such as Apple and Eizo. These value for money LCD displays offer good build quality and overall performance; however, they are not specifically designed for colour work, and do not have the colour accuracy features of our 4 and 5 Star monitors."

Other monitors at a slightly higher price, such as the Eizo ColorEdge CG222W (Product Code: EIZO070) are rated at four stars by this site.

John
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« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2010, 08:14:21 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Steve,

I have big news !
This is great news.. but I must admit I'm more intrigued than ever.  Despite Czornyj's explanation of using a colorimeter, specifically 1i2 and Imatch3, this combination is not only working correctly on tons of wide-gamut monitors.. but are in fact recommended and listed as compatible with wide-gamut monitors.  Yes, there might be some minor differences at the fringes.. but not enough to using anything else if it costs you even a single dollar.

And in fact.. I'm using the 1i2 puck with my wide-gamut (NEC LCD2690uxi2's) monitors with excellent results.

So no, I don't feel this is a general mismatch of hardware and software.. even as you say you're still using the 1i2 hardware.. just different software.

So the real question is.. what is it about this software that's causing am incompatibility with Eizo Flexscan monitors?  My guess is nothing.

My guess is something else in your system.. and I say that because many other people are using 1i2 hardware pucks and Imatch3 software with their Flexscans.

I'd like to find out what it is.. as much software as you've loaded, deleted, loaded, deleted, etc.. something was left behind.  There's a chance.. not sure how much of one.. that whatever was left behind and is causing issues with Imatch3 and not the other.. will come back to bite you.  When and how deep the bite who knows..

Look at it this way.  There are many Eizo Flexcan's using 1i2 pucks and Imatch3 software to properly profile them.  Why won't yours?  What have you ruled out..

1.  The monitors appear to be ruled out.

2.  Win7 is ruled out.

3.  The 1i2 is ruled out.

4.  This leaves.. the Win7 build and remnants left over from previous installs.. your copy/version of Imatch3 (I'm assuming you're using the Win7 version?  It's the latest update), or procedure/technique.


I'm curious..   But I totally understand you'd like to take a break from this and just process images for a while..

If it were me.. I'd wipe the system and install Win7 from scratch..  The most currents drivers..  install a basic suite of imaging software.. just CS5 for instance.. and then I'd profile it again..  If it works with the minimum.. I'd install one piece of software at a time, reboot, check.. and continue till the build is finished..
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Czornyj
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« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2010, 01:31:42 PM »
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Steve, on the surface of my 3090WQXi:
- in the left corner there's a mighty DTP94B colorimeter - the undefeated "master of darkness", considered as the best popular colorimeter of all times (at least as better than i1d2)
- in the right corner there's an i1pro spectro I had used to calibrate the display


Comparing chromatic coordinates of both measurements, there's over 10dE(76) of a difference.

Apart from the above mentioned, the inter instrumental agreement between i1d2 is not impressive, and - according to very reliable information - there might be even 18dE difference between wtpt measurements from various i1d2 units. All in all - I wouldn't risk to say it's an instrument you can unconditionally rely on...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 01:33:40 PM by Czornyj » Logged

Mark Paulson
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« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2010, 02:19:31 PM »
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Just my 2 cents. I have both and recently switched to the Spyder III at the behest of Scott Martin. I use ColorEyes and with a CG222W all woork fine.
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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2010, 03:11:35 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Steve, on the surface of my 3090WQXi:

Apart from the above mentioned, the inter instrumental agreement between i1d2 is not impressive, and - according to very reliable information - there might be even 18dE difference between wtpt measurements from various i1d2 units. All in all - I wouldn't risk to say it's an instrument you can unconditionally rely on...
Its pretty hard to make out from that picture.. but your 1i2 looks different than mine.  Perhaps it's an older version?  The one I have looks remarkably similar/same to the SVII puck NEC sells.. and they recommend the 1i2 for their wide gamut monitors.

Have you measured more than one sample?  Can you be more specific about what you've heard?

I don't use any piece of software or hardware "unconditionally", but I have relied on my 1i2 for several years now and it's done a fine job.. and there are tons of them out there with happy customers.  I'm probably less likely to rely on a single persons experience or internet rumors.

Besides, this is already a moot point.  If his 1i2 is working well enough with one piece of software to give him an acceptable profile then its working well enough.  If he wants to split hairs as he gets more into this then I'd encourage him to borrow different hardware devices and see just how much difference there really is.

Personally I was ready to buy either the SVII hardware puck or the Colormunki to use with my new wide gamut displays.. but NEC told me the 1i2 was nearly identical to theirs and while the Colormunki has more functions, it won't give me a more accurate profile.  Is NEC right?  I dunno.. but my guess is there's a lot more operator errors and operator induced malfunctions.. than ones of hardware..
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Czornyj
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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2010, 03:35:33 PM »
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It's not i1d2, it's only my DTP94 (that's even better than i1). NEC US makes his custom matted colorimeters for a good reason. I'm not trying to split hairs, I'm only trying to explain what could be the reason of the problem.

My picture is only an example, and i1pro cannot be considered as a serious source of reference measurement values, but here's the result of a serious scientific test:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry324899
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 03:40:10 PM by Czornyj » Logged

shayaweiss
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« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2010, 05:54:36 AM »
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Quote from: John R Smith
Colour Confidence, a leading monitor supplier in the UK, only rates the Eizo 2233W at two stars (out of five). They comment -

"2 Star LCD monitors

The LCD monitors we have selected for our 2 Star range include models from leading manufacturers such as Apple and Eizo. These value for money LCD displays offer good build quality and overall performance; however, they are not specifically designed for colour work, and do not have the colour accuracy features of our 4 and 5 Star monitors."

Other monitors at a slightly higher price, such as the Eizo ColorEdge CG222W (Product Code: EIZO070) are rated at four stars by this site.

John

John,

These are indeed very useful ratings. My photographic supplier advertised them as suitable for photographic work, but now that I had a closer look at Eizo's Website, I saw that they do also state that it is suitable for that purpose, but only in a "prosumer" or amateur setting, though I cannot understand what they should do with it.

Unfortunately, Eizo does have a distributor here who sells their screens double the price (yes!) from Europe, even for models that have already been replaced, like the CD222W. That's why, when I paid for the Flexscan s2233w, I paid like you would pay for the ColorEdge CD222w. I thought I'll try to safe some money. It was a big mistake.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 05:56:43 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2010, 06:17:01 AM »
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Steve,

Quote from: Steve Weldon
This is great news.. but I must admit I'm more intrigued than ever.  Despite Czornyj's explanation of using a colorimeter, specifically 1i2 and Imatch3, this combination is not only working correctly on tons of wide-gamut monitors.. but are in fact recommended and listed as compatible with wide-gamut monitors.

I know, thats why I bought it. But if I learned one thing, than it is that, just because everybody does this or buys that etc., it's NOT good, doesn't make it good, and doesn't mean it's good.

Quote
The monitors appear to be ruled out.

No, why? The one that did already go back to the distributor had an magenta cast even in their place. Far away from my machines.

Quote
Win7 is ruled out.

why?

Quote
The 1i2 is ruled out.
I don't think so. I think that Czornyj has a very good, and well documented, point.


Quote
This leaves.. the Win7 build and remnants left over from previous installs.. your copy/version of Imatch3 (I'm assuming you're using the Win7 version?  It's the latest update), or procedure/technique.

I'm curious..   But I totally understand you'd like to take a break from this and just process images for a while..

If it were me.. I'd wipe the system and install Win7 from scratch..  The most currents drivers..  install a basic suite of imaging software.. just CS5 for instance.. and then I'd profile it again..  If it works with the minimum.. I'd install one piece of software at a time, reboot, check.. and continue till the build is finished..

I hear your last point, and in an ideal world, to rule this point out, I would do it, but in practical terms, I have to work. Also this particular machine is brand new and has all the latest drivers and updates. Everything is running smoothly and has been checked and double checked with all kinds of pieces of software and technicians on site and remotely.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 06:19:24 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
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