Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Anyone follow the miss-steps of North Korea?  (Read 6646 times)
Justan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1875


WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2010, 11:21:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
Hopefully for the N Koreans things won't get as bad as the scenes from the American heartlands during the depression of the thirties.

I agree.

And that is an interesting comparison. The last great depression in the US was a transition point for the world. A big part of the reason is that many had a valid option between returning to an agricultural life or ascending to what is a considered today as merchant or corporate economy. Millions sought to turn to the past and turn expressly away from modern tools so to speak, even to irrational ends.

In the current depression, we don’t have any place to go back to. Of course the biggest problem is that capitalism is inherently unstable, but it’s the only game we have.

Even given this, NK doesn’t seek to insulate itself from the global economy so much as it is said to want to insure it’s homogeneity. But it is a case where their government peruses a self-destructive path with growing aggression in this name. Truly a case of eating one’s young in the name of protecting the clan.

Another popular conspiracy theory is, of course, that someone not from NK bought NK manufactured torpedoes and used them in calculated ploy to start a war. Now who would have an interest in starting a war that would escalate to ultimately being between the US and China as the chief protagonists? Hmmm . . . Could be anyone with an interest in profiting from warfare.

Of course if this were the case, then NK would logically be more conciliatory rather than to essentially threaten the UN to not even debate the topic. That decision by NK gives little credibility to the conspiracy theory.

So why does NK want to punish itself in the name of protecting homogeneity?
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2010, 11:48:03 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
Hopefully for the N Koreans things won't get as bad as the scenes from the American heartlands during the depression of the thirties.

Stamper, How old are you? Most North Koreans already are far, far worse-off than people in the American heartlands were during the depression. That's why North Koreans are dying trying to cross into China, where things aren't a whole lot better. A large part of the country literally is starving. There's been a lot of propaganda about the American depression, but I can tell you from personal experience that it wasn't as bad as the propaganda makes it sound. Besides that, the U.S. didn't have a military with its boot on the neck of the people. That's a huge, huge difference.

As far as Justan's comment on the stability of capitalism is concerned, to paraphrase Churchill: capitalism is the worst of economic systems, except for all the rest. Capitalism illustrates the fact that nothing in life is perfect -- not even the good things.
Logged

stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2010, 02:22:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Stamper, without the thirty thousand American troops camped on its border there wouldn't be a North Korea. There'd just be a Korea -- with Kim as its dictator. That would have an even more dolorous effect on the world economy than what's happening now.

Americas failure to overcome Vietnam didn't have an effect on the world economy. The bringing down of the Soviet regime didn't help the world economy either. Since then we have had a lot more crisis. The one we are about to go into - the recession hasn't ended only started - will last 15 to 20 years and a lot of innocent people will suffer, far more than in N Korea. Ironically the most successful economy is Chinas. They lend billions to prop up the America economy as well as supply a lot of their consumer products. The actions of the American bankers are causing world wide problems. Time for a new economic system?
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2010, 06:13:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Stamper, From your opinions I can see what sort of thing you're reading. I suspect you don't have access to anything else. But you're right, the recession has just started and the governments of most Western countries are doing their best to make sure it continues and deepens -- just as Roosevelt and his "brain trust" did in the late thirties and early forties here in the U.S. The thing that ended the depression in the U.S. was the beginning of WW II, which made it impossible for the government to continue to press its socialist programs. If you'd like references to support that statement, I'll be happy to supply them -- or at least to point you in the direction of some genuine economic data about the era. But evidently you've been led to believe that people in the U.S. were starving during the depression. Very few were. Which is not to say that people didn't have a very hard time. They did. But the government wasn't grinding them the way the government of North Vietnam is grinding their people. We had churches, charities, and neighbors helping neighbors. Interestingly enough, crime levels were quite low, which sort of blows up the idea that poverty causes crime.

I don't know where you're getting your ideas about living conditions in North Korea. They're certainly divorced from what's reported regularly by those watching the situation. The "leaders" and the military brass in North Korea are living high. The peasants literally are starving.

As far as recent wars and the demise of the Soviet Union not having an effect on the world economy is concerned, you might want to try backing up that statement with some references. They certainly had an effect, but I suspect no one really understands what the effect was. Again, before you get too stretched out with a statement about "a lot more crises," I'd suggest you first define what you mean by crisis and then dig up some data to support your statement. I've been around long enough to see an awful lot of crises, and I have a hard time believing that the number has increased. From my own point of view, the "cold war" went continually from crisis to crisis.

China's making huge economic headway by bringing in a modicum of Capitalism. In the long run, how that's going to work out alongside their dictatorship has yet to be determined. Personally, I'm not optimistic. People who rise through their own efforts in a Capitalistic system usually seem to become a bit impatient with their dictators.

As far as American bankers are concerned, they certainly seem to as greedy as bankers in most societies, but you have to understand that the real disaster was brought on by the government requiring those bankers to make loans to people who couldn't pay them back. The housing crisis arose directly out of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac -- the two quasi-government agencies who were required to back bad loans at taxpayer expense. The other problem was that though banks probably are the most regulated outfits in the U.S. economy, the regulators weren't regulating.

As far as a "new economic system" is concerned, what would you suggest? Socialism? We already have that.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655



WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 07:52:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
... the real disaster was brought on by the government requiring those bankers to make loans to people who couldn't pay them back...
Ah, yes... the Joe Schmoes of the world... they always been nothing but trouble. The poorest in any society are always guilty of all the troubles: world wars, religious wars, economic crises, currency collapses, investment bubbles, you name it. They just can't sit still and let the fat cats create wealth... no, sir, the poor just have to ruin everything for everybody.

Or perhaps it was bundling of those bad loans into derivatives, then re-bundling of those derivatives onto the nth degree that caused the house of cards collapse (a.k.a. the world's financial collapse)? And every time a new bundle is made and sold to the next sucker, Wall Street and bankers world-wide made another billion in bonuses. And then that billion had to be priced into the next derivative bundle and sold to the next sucker at an even higher price. And it was all Joe Schmoe's fault.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2010, 08:39:03 PM »
ReplyReply

Slobodan, I didn't say or suggest anything of the sort. In many, many cases the people offering the loans screwed the people accepting the loans. But before I say anything more about that, I have to ask you: do you have any idea what Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac are? Can you describe what they do? If not, better do a bit of research into their part in this fiasco, and also into the members of congress who insisted that Fanny and Freddie back subprime loans. Yes, the derivatives were a big part of the problem, not because there's anything inherently wrong with derivatives, but because the feds who were supposed to regulate derivatives -- in other words, the cops -- didn't do their job. Yes, some of the people putting together the derivatives were, well, less than scrupulous about what they were doing. Some probably ought to be in jail. There's a lot of blame to go around.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 08:39:47 PM by RSL » Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655



WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2010, 09:01:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
... I have to ask you: do you have any idea what Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac are? Can you describe what they do? If not, better do a bit of research...
Hmmm... am I only imagining, or there is a patronizing tone in the above? Nah, knowing it comes from you, I will take it as a rhetorical tool.

Btw, my professional credentials are just a few clicks and a google search-box away.  
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 03:00:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote RSL

I don't know where you're getting your ideas about living conditions in North Korea. They're certainly divorced from what's reported regularly by those watching the situation. The "leaders" and the military brass in North Korea are living high. The peasants literally are starving.

Unquote

I am not a supporter of N Korea or its Stalinist approach to economics. It comes across as a dictatorship. My beef is the hypocritical sniping of the west to countries like N Korea, Cuba and Iran. They don't want N Korea and Iran to have nuclear weapons but America has and used them. America's stated aim since WW2 is to dominate the world. I do read both sides of the argument and have a lot of literature at hand. The three countries that I have stated, their problems won't get better by bullying them. The Iraq war was for oil and as to Afghanistan, who knows why the west is there? This is a complicated subject. You gloss over the American banker's incompetence and greed which has triggered problems in the weakness of other countries economic systems. They can't be patched up only reformed?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 03:01:01 AM by stamper » Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 07:48:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
Quote RSL

I don't know where you're getting your ideas about living conditions in North Korea. They're certainly divorced from what's reported regularly by those watching the situation. The "leaders" and the military brass in North Korea are living high. The peasants literally are starving.

Unquote

I am not a supporter of N Korea or its Stalinist approach to economics. It comes across as a dictatorship. My beef is the hypocritical sniping of the west to countries like N Korea, Cuba and Iran. They don't want N Korea and Iran to have nuclear weapons but America has and used them. America's stated aim since WW2 is to dominate the world. I do read both sides of the argument and have a lot of literature at hand. The three countries that I have stated, their problems won't get better by bullying them. The Iraq war was for oil and as to Afghanistan, who knows why the west is there? This is a complicated subject. You gloss over the American banker's incompetence and greed which has triggered problems in the weakness of other countries economic systems. They can't be patched up only reformed?

Stamper, I'm not interested in exchanging rants, so I'm going to wrap up my participation in this thread right now. The kind of literature you have "at hand" is quite clear from your list of assertions.
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2010, 08:05:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
Hmmm... am I only imagining, or there is a patronizing tone in the above? Nah, knowing it comes from you, I will take it as a rhetorical tool.

Btw, my professional credentials are just a few clicks and a google search-box away.  

Slobodan, If my reply sounded patronizing it's because it looked as if you weren't a very careful reader when you replied to what I said. I certainly wasn't blaming "joe schmoe." Joe's almost always the mark in that kind of operation, not the initiator. And I certainly didn't excuse the greedy and immoral financiers who were at the heart of the fiasco. But with your background you certainly ought to be aware that none of this could have happened if the governments of the western world had done their jobs. Our congress flatly required subprime loans backed by the taxpayers because it was politically advantageous for them to do so. Then, when the bundling took place and those bundlers were making their billions, the governments were like cops standing in the street, watching the banks being robbed while they munched their doughnuts and coffee. Our government keeps talking about more regulations, but as you well know, the regulations are already there. What we need is better regulators.

I'm now going to leave this thread and get back to photography, which is what LuLa is all about. Yours, by the way, is very, very good.
Logged

Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2010, 02:48:32 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Stamper, I was there, flying fighter-bombers, during the war. I saw a lot of the south and some of the north. This is what part of Taegu -- in the south -- looked like in those days. From what I've read, the north is in even worse shape than this. The western world is going to have to collapse a long, long way before we look out of our caves and envy the North Koreans.

[attachment=22552:river_dwellings_1.jpg]



Russ

A great photograph in many ways.

It aroused my memory into a little déjà vu moment: HC-B, Nanterre - 1968; Doisneau, Ivry - 1946, Villejuif - 1946 and Saint-Denis, 1971.

Those conditions are not that foreign to western experience at some times and in some places; I have seen pics of my old Glasgow that would make you think you were on another, post-apocalyptic planet, and that goes no further back than the 40s/50s. Some of Don McCulin's shots of east London...

Oh, how about the railway and water mains in olde Bombay if you want romantic? I know Frank sang about a bar there, but I bet he never visited!

Rob C

EDIT: Russ, were you landing or taking off?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 03:14:29 PM by Rob C » Logged

stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 02:33:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: RSL
Stamper, I'm not interested in exchanging rants, so I'm going to wrap up my participation in this thread right now. The kind of literature you have "at hand" is quite clear from your list of assertions.

One of the problems about having left wing views is that you tend to get spoken down to from time to time. The above illustrates this? Russ you have obviously got your views and I have mine. A more tolerant attitude towards the "lesser" nations in the world would be beneficial to world peace.
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6188



WWW
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2010, 06:45:09 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rob C
Russ

A great photograph in many ways.

It aroused my memory into a little déjà vu moment: HC-B, Nanterre - 1968; Doisneau, Ivry - 1946, Villejuif - 1946 and Saint-Denis, 1971.

Those conditions are not that foreign to western experience at some times and in some places; I have seen pics of my old Glasgow that would make you think you were on another, post-apocalyptic planet, and that goes no further back than the 40s/50s. Some of Don McCulin's shots of east London...

Oh, how about the railway and water mains in olde Bombay if you want romantic? I know Frank sang about a bar there, but I bet he never visited!

Rob C

EDIT: Russ, were you landing or taking off?

Rob, Yes, I'm familiar with the HC-B and Doisneau pictures you mention. There certainly are similarities. I was standing on the bridge that crosses the river -- don't remember its name -- near the center of town. I have a series of pictures from that vantage point. Those people were refugees -- most of them from the north. It was a human catastrophe, as war always is. I shot these when the weather was reasonably good. In the winter the situation was worse.
Logged

Justan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1875


WWW
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2010, 10:00:55 AM »
ReplyReply

UN hears testimony regarding sinking of South Korean War Ship Cheonan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10315219.stm

Logged

stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2010, 10:54:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Justan
UN hears testimony regarding sinking of South Korean War Ship Cheonan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10315219.stm


And what do you think will happen if they are found guilty? The start of world war three or more sanctions on a beleaguered population. They will suffer but the leaders will become more paranoid. Change can only come from within?
Logged

Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2010, 11:43:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
And what do you think will happen if they are found guilty? The start of world war three or more sanctions on a beleaguered population. They will suffer but the leaders will become more paranoid. Change can only come from within?



Yes, you have a point, stamper, but democracy seems the only system that permits change from within, short of revolution and more bloodshed. They've been trying it for generations in Burma, but to what avail? All these totalitarian systems are not shy of spilling blood - it is their guarantee. Iran? It, along with Lebanon, was one of the more sophisticated countries outwith western Europe. I knew people who worked out there as engineering contractors building hydro-electricity schemes (in the time of the Shah) - they were people we knew from India where they did the same and they loved the place and the people. Today? Today, the people would love to leave - even just to go to India, I bet!

What will actually happen with NK? I think, in a word, nothing. If I am mistaken though, and anything gets done, it will be by China, driven by its own commercial needs with the external markets.

As relief from the ubiquitous bloody football, I sometimes catch reports on the Gulf oil disaster. All I see is more political posturing. Obama makes a fourth visit - or is it now more - to the area and does what? What the hell can he do other than sound fierce and posture? Bush was pilloried for missing out on Kate's arrival - not an early enough visit - his replacement is just trying to avoid the possibility of the same accusation; but what can he do? Does he or anybody else with a brain really, really imagine BP isn't the single, most concerned entity in the whole damn disaster? But, as with the politicos, what can it do either? Fix it? Yes, so they are not trying - they enjoy losing all that oil and running up the debt of repair and inevitable lawsuits? Boy, in the true spirit of the ill wind, will those lawyers be happy!

The moment the press/TV/web latches onto something, reality flies out the window. What was that quotation? Truth is the first casualty of war?

Rob C
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 11:49:29 AM by Rob C » Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655



WWW
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
One of the problems about having left wing views...
Declaring your views left-wing, you are not doing the Left a favor.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 02:40:17 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
Declaring your views left-wing, you are not doing the Left a favor.

Would you care to elaborate on that? It is a broad church, too broad in my opinion?
Logged

stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2621


« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 02:48:52 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rob C
Yes, you have a point, stamper, but democracy seems the only system that permits change from within, short of revolution and more bloodshed. They've been trying it for generations in Burma, but to what avail? All these totalitarian systems are not shy of spilling blood - it is their guarantee. Iran? It, along with Lebanon, was one of the more sophisticated countries outwith western Europe. I knew people who worked out there as engineering contractors building hydro-electricity schemes (in the time of the Shah) - they were people we knew from India where they did the same and they loved the place and the people. Today? Today, the people would love to leave - even just to go to India, I bet!

What will actually happen with NK? I think, in a word, nothing. If I am mistaken though, and anything gets done, it will be by China, driven by its own commercial needs with the external markets.

As relief from the ubiquitous bloody football, I sometimes catch reports on the Gulf oil disaster. All I see is more political posturing. Obama makes a fourth visit - or is it now more - to the area and does what? What the hell can he do other than sound fierce and posture? Bush was pilloried for missing out on Kate's arrival - not an early enough visit - his replacement is just trying to avoid the possibility of the same accusation; but what can he do? Does he or anybody else with a brain really, really imagine BP isn't the single, most concerned entity in the whole damn disaster? But, as with the politicos, what can it do either? Fix it? Yes, so they are not trying - they enjoy losing all that oil and running up the debt of repair and inevitable lawsuits? Boy, in the true spirit of the ill wind, will those lawyers be happy!

The moment the press/TV/web latches onto something, reality flies out the window. What was that quotation? Truth is the first casualty of war?

Rob C

Rob, a very insightful post. You hit the nail on the head! It will take revolution and bloodshed to change the regime. I hope when and if it comes it doesn't convert to a free market economy where most of the population won't be any better off and only some will get rich. America eyes a take over of Cuba again. Most of the population will lose it's good education system and health system and suffer. A few will be become rich and the workers more impoverished. There has to be somewhere a balance between the rich and poor which will help the many and not the greedy few?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 02:49:55 AM by stamper » Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655



WWW
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2010, 12:01:54 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: stamper
Would you care to elaborate on that? ...
I would be happy to... but then I read your next post and realized nobody could possibly elaborate any better than you:

Quote from: stamper
... I hope... it doesn't convert to a free market economy where most of the population won't be any better off and only some will get rich... Most of the population will lose it's good education system and health system and suffer. A few will be become rich and the workers more impoverished....
On a side note, looks like you obtained your reading material at a Kim Philby's estate sale?
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad