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Author Topic: RGB values in C1Pro's Advanced Color Editor ???  (Read 13681 times)
annamaerz
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« on: June 18, 2010, 03:47:30 AM »
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I need help with these RGB values in Phase One's Capture One Pro advanced color editor. I do not understand at all what these values stand for! Which RGB model are they in? I thought, maybe C1 uses the output RGB model, which I leave at ProPhotoRGB. But that makes no sens here. Or maybe somehow the camera's space?

Let me give you some examples. I tried to understand the patches from the color checker RAW image.

"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 Huh
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 Huh
...

I 'm sure all this is easy, but I can't figure it out.

Thanks in advance for your help.

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tho_mas
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 05:04:28 AM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
Or maybe somehow the camera's space?
yes, they show the values of the input profile.
The RGB values shown centered at the top of the viewer are referring to the output recipe (resp. to the proof profile).

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Which RGB model are they in?
RGB and HSV

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annamaerz
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 07:33:43 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
yes, they show the values of the input profile.
The RGB values shown centered at the top of the viewer are referring to the output recipe (resp. to the proof profile).
I don't understand that at all, tho_mas. My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB, and the C1 Base Characteristics ICC Profile is set to "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic", but these values do noy make any sens in Adobe RGB:
"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 Huh
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 Huh
...


Quote from: tho_mas
Quote
Which RGB model are they in?
RGB and HSV
Yes but RGB what Huh To what does this relate? Which RGB model? How could RED be R13 !!! G59 B39?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 07:58:42 AM by annamaerz » Logged
bjanes
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 08:25:29 AM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
I don't understand that at all, tho_mas. My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB, and the C1 Base Characteristics ICC Profile is set to "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic", but these values do noy make any sens in Adobe RGB:
"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 Huh
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 Huh
For a detailed analysis of digital sensor colorimetry, see this article by Doug Kerr. In your camera's raw file, the RGB values that are recorded represent the output of the RGB elements of the Bayer array. These values depend on the sensitivities of the elements to red, green and blue light and determine the color space of the sensor. Because of failure to meet the Luther-Ives conditions (see the article), Mr. Kerr argues that this is not a true color space such as ProPhotoRGB. However, a standard color matrix conversion can be used to convert from the camera space to a reference space such as CIE XYZ or directly to the working color space such as ProPhotoRGB.

If you set your camera to Adobe RGB, the preview on the LCD will be rendered into aRGB as would a JPEG output from the camera. However, the raw file will be recorded in terms of the camera space, and the file will merely be tagged with the intended Adobe space. If you use the camera maker's raw converter (DPP for Canon), the converter will read the tag and render into Adobe RGB. Other raw converters (such as Adobe Camera Raw) will ignore the tag, and it is up to the user to select the space for the rendered raw file.

In your instance, the Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic profile tells the raw converter how to convert from the native space of the camera to the chosen working space. Although I don't use C1, I would imagine that the RGB values are in terms of the chosen working space.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 08:49:57 AM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB
that only affects the camera JPG, not the RAW file...

Quote
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 Huh
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 Huh
in fact those values don't make sense.
could you please post a screenshot of the picked colors in the Color Editor, like here:
[attachment=22659:col.jpg]

Quote
Yes but RGB what Huh To what does this relate? Which RGB model?
Color model or color profile?
As already mentioned, the values shown in the Color Editor are related to the camera profile (unlike the RGB values on the top of the viewer which are related to the output).
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annamaerz
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 10:48:58 AM »
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I think I understand.
 - The aRGB in the camera is in fact only a tag for the JPG-rendering and for the Canon software.
 - The RGB values in the Color Editor are based on the input profile, namely "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" in this case (which renders the camera sensor color data)
 - The RGB values on top of the viewer are related to the output profile, that is, in this case, ProPhotoRGB selected in the "process" tab.

I will most definitely read this article, bjanes.

Now, in the advanced color editor what are those RGB values, and how do they make sens. Here is the screen shot tho_mas:
[attachment=22661:Untitled_1.jpg]
different pic, but still, how could red be R15?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 10:51:08 AM by annamaerz » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 11:32:44 AM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
[attachment=22661:Untitled_1.jpg]
different pic, but still, how could red be R15?
I don't know, that's weird.
The respective color should look like this:
[attachment=22662:5d2_15_46_41.jpg]

Maybe something strange in your color- resp. color management settings ... but I've no idea.
Sorry...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:33:24 AM by tho_mas » Logged
James R
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 01:32:25 PM »
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I'm not getting your response.  I uploaded a photo of an MacBeth chart and white balanced on medium gray.  I checked red, green and blue values using the Color Editor in the advance mode.  My readings were 183, 139, and 144.  The green number is much different CS5 were I got a green reading of 171.  The red and blue numbers were relatively close, with the CS5 numbers being a 5 or so points higher.   Some of that variance depends where I took the reading within the color square--the reading would vary 3 or so points within the color square.

At least I never got a 15 reading on red.

Good luck. I'm going to continue to rely on my eyes and rely on getting the numbers consistent within the C1 and not compare to other program.
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craigwashburn
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2010, 11:58:26 AM »
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Make sure your monitor color profile is correctly loaded for the display C1 loads into.  I've had a few screwball color situations come up related to that, one drove me crazy with white balance RGB values being slightly off - I restarted my machine and it fixed it.  Totally odd, OS issue I guess.
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annamaerz
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2010, 02:58:51 PM »
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Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.

To sum up:

 - ColorChecker, studio strobes @5500

 - RAW files from 5Dm2

 - tethered Capture One Pro 5.1.2

 - only WB, no other treatment

 - Base Characetristics ICC Profile "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" with standard film curve

 - Proof Profile set to "Selected Output Profile (Default)"

 - Process Recipe ICC Profile "ProPhoto RGB"

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James R
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2010, 03:28:19 PM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.

To sum up:

 - ColorChecker, studio strobes @5500

 - RAW files from 5Dm2

 - tethered Capture One Pro 5.1.2

 - only WB, no other treatment

 - Base Characetristics ICC Profile "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" with standard film curve

 - Proof Profile set to "Selected Output Profile (Default)"

 - Process Recipe ICC Profile "ProPhoto RGB"

Shoot a color chart and see how it reads the red.  Maybe you could post the image and we can test the colors and see what we get.
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annamaerz
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2010, 04:38:33 PM »
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Quote from: James R
Shoot a color chart and see how it reads the red.  Maybe you could post the image and we can test the colors and see what we get.

Here is the crop of the ColorChecker. Except WB and -0.10 exposure, nothing else. It's a jpeg with ProPhoto RGB profile embedded, directly processed out of C1.
[attachment=22691:Untitled0000768.jpg]

and a screen shot again, of how this same thing reads here:[attachment=22692:Untitled_2.jpg]
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tho_mas
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2010, 06:19:13 PM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.
what happens if you switch back to a single monitor setup? (temporarily, just for testing...)
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annamaerz
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 07:08:12 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
what happens if you switch back to a single monitor setup? (temporarily, just for testing...)

Ok, I tried that with a restart, but the problem remains.

A colleague just found out that someone posted on Phase One's user forum about the same problem ( http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8771 ) but till today there seams to be no answer or solution!
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James R
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 08:51:28 PM »
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Anna,

I got the following RGB reading from your color chart: R 188, G 158, B 165.  If you are getting 15 in red, then I would go to PhaseOne and submit a trouble ticket.  There is something wrong with your program (maybe they will have you reinstall) or a setting is off.  Your problem is something I've never heard of before and hopefully never will again.

Good luck
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annamaerz
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2010, 05:35:25 AM »
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Quote from: James R
submit a trouble ticket.  There is something wrong with your program (maybe they will have you reinstall) or a setting is off.


Meanwhile I did both. I opened a case with Phase One technical support. I also deactivated, uninstalled, restarted and than reinstalled 5.1.2 Pro. The values remain the same.


Quote
Your problem is something I've never heard of before and hopefully never will again.

Well, it seems that we are not alone, as we found at least one user in the P1 forum that experience apparently the same problem, but, at least in the forum, there is no answer to the problem.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 05:50:34 AM by annamaerz » Logged
shayaweiss
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 09:56:11 AM »
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anything new?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 09:57:26 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
annamaerz
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 10:03:42 AM »
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Please help me with this: In relation to my case:

Under WINDOWS 7, do you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker.

Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.

Thanks a lot
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 10:04:29 AM by annamaerz » Logged
James R
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 10:56:55 AM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
Please help me with this: In relation to my case:

Under WINDOWS 7, do you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker.

Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.

Thanks a lot

Sorry, I use a MacPro.  Maybe it is a Windows thing.

Good luck
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annamaerz
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 11:57:43 AM »
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Quote from: James R
Sorry, I use a MacPro.  Maybe it is a Windows thing.

Good luck

Maybe it is. FOr that reason I would need help. If other C1 user under Win7 could check, it would be of great help.

The question is, whether you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker. Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.

Thanks a lot

Maybe I should start a new thread with that?
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