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Author Topic: Can we expect new sensors at Photokina?  (Read 17978 times)
PaulSchneider
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« on: June 20, 2010, 04:39:51 PM »
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Hi guys,

does anyone have an idea as to what lies ahead in medium format land?

Does Phase One have some surprises for Photokina?

Different points to consider:

a) Dalsa apparently is able to create medium format sized ccds with 92 MPx resolution. They already manufacture them for aerial photogrammetry and cartographic applications ...

http://www.azooptics.com/details.asp?newsID=7421

 Optical limitations. I just received a Schneider 43 XL and must say the performance is incredible. It is another league compared to the base offerings of hasselblad (currently am on a H3D-50 loaner till H4D-60 is finally shipped). Apparently this is the bleeding cutting edge of lens technology and one can see that in the results. I have never seen such sharpness out of a digital back, even applying a little bit of sharpening can immediately create halos and jagged edges, that's how sharp this lens is. But nonetheless even these lenses are are apparently conceived to max out at 5-6 microns. I'm confidend such Schneider lenses will resolve a higher resolution back but what about let's say some stock 80mm 2.8 lens that's been around for years with the same optical design? I'm afraid the optics aren't up to the task and creating a bigger sensor is out of question short of creating a new kind of bigger system and replacing the H-System alltogether.

c) R&D considerations, market considerations: People who just recently coughed up the money for a 60MP system would be pissed if there would be a 90 MP system around the corner in this short time-frame and which would cost maybe another 20 000 USD to "upgrade". I'd be seriously enraged if Hasselblad came up with a higher-res system just one or two months later after they finally have been able after more than a year! to produce a useable H4D-60.

d) Phase One hasn't had a new product for some time and they are perceived as the key innovators in the MFDB area ... they have to have something new to show around Photokina ...

So ... what will happen, anyone care take a look into the crystal ball?

Regards

Paul
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 10:29:10 PM »
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Hi,

For long time five microns have sort of been seen as a practical limit. A five my sensor on 55 by 45 mm geometry would yield 99 MPixels, so it's certainly possible.

Shrinking the size of the pixels puts increasing demands on the rest of the system, but less dramatically than one would think. Going from from 60 MP to 90 MP is a 22% increase in linear resolution, so optical alignment needs to be 22% better, lenses 22% better and so on. BTW, photographer needs to be 22% better, too.

Regarding price I'd suggest that the cost of a 90 MP chip is the same as for a 60 MP chip. Camera electronics would need to be 50% faster to keep performance at a given level.

If I recall it correctly, the P45 was 39MP while the P65 is 60MP, according to Michael Reichmann it was a significant improvement, but that improvement probably went beyond just increasing pixel count. If Phase wants to get P65+ owners to upgrade they need a a significant step forward in image quality.

On the other hand, Phase just got some new competition, the Leica S2 and the new Pentax 645. So Phase perhaps would be more focused on improving their camera platform regarding precision, autofocus and so on.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys,

does anyone have an idea as to what lies ahead in medium format land?

Does Phase One have some surprises for Photokina?

Different points to consider:

a) Dalsa apparently is able to create medium format sized ccds with 92 MPx resolution. They already manufacture them for aerial photogrammetry and cartographic applications ...

http://www.azooptics.com/details.asp?newsID=7421

 Optical limitations. I just received a Schneider 43 XL and must say the performance is incredible. It is another league compared to the base offerings of hasselblad (currently am on a H3D-50 loaner till H4D-60 is finally shipped). Apparently this is the bleeding cutting edge of lens technology and one can see that in the results. I have never seen such sharpness out of a digital back, even applying a little bit of sharpening can immediately create halos and jagged edges, that's how sharp this lens is. But nonetheless even these lenses are are apparently conceived to max out at 5-6 microns. I'm confidend such Schneider lenses will resolve a higher resolution back but what about let's say some stock 80mm 2.8 lens that's been around for years with the same optical design? I'm afraid the optics aren't up to the task and creating a bigger sensor is out of question short of creating a new kind of bigger system and replacing the H-System alltogether.

c) R&D considerations, market considerations: People who just recently coughed up the money for a 60MP system would be pissed if there would be a 90 MP system around the corner in this short time-frame and which would cost maybe another 20 000 USD to "upgrade". I'd be seriously enraged if Hasselblad came up with a higher-res system just one or two months later after they finally have been able after more than a year! to produce a useable H4D-60.

d) Phase One hasn't had a new product for some time and they are perceived as the key innovators in the MFDB area ... they have to have something new to show around Photokina ...

So ... what will happen, anyone care take a look into the crystal ball?

Regards

Paul
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Christopher
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 12:54:41 AM »
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Well I said it before and I just hope I'm wrong.

What we will see soon:

- a 80+ Mp back, which still has the great old LCD, or a sligly better one, but still far behind current phones which cost only thousand bucks or so.
- same DR, same noise and nothing new

What I would like to see and the only thing I'm really interested:

-60Mp or similar (Can be 80, but ONLY if other things are significantly improved.
- higher DR I would love to see for example something like sensor + but that not only offers higher ISOs, but a higher DR when bined
- Live View .... I don't believe we will ever get it until I see it
- Noise improvements in the ISO 200 and 800 range
- a LCD on the back, which is GOOD, large and can be viewed anywhere.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 02:43:13 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Optical limitations. I just received a Schneider 43 XL and must say the performance is incredible. It is another league compared to the base offerings of hasselblad (currently am on a H3D-50 loaner till H4D-60 is finally shipped). Apparently this is the bleeding cutting edge of lens technology and one can see that in the results. I have never seen such sharpness out of a digital back, even applying a little bit of sharpening can immediately create halos and jagged edges, that's how sharp this lens is. But nonetheless even these lenses are are apparently conceived to max out at 5-6 microns. I'm confidend such Schneider lenses will resolve a higher resolution back but what about let's say some stock 80mm 2.8 lens that's been around for years with the same optical design? I'm afraid the optics aren't up to the task and creating a bigger sensor is out of question short of creating a new kind of bigger system and replacing the H-System alltogether.

c) R&D considerations, market considerations: People who just recently coughed up the money for a 60MP system would be pissed if there would be a 90 MP system around the corner in this short time-frame and which would cost maybe another 20 000 USD to "upgrade". I'd be seriously enraged if Hasselblad came up with a higher-res system just one or two months later after they finally have been able after more than a year! to produce a useable H4D-60.

The three things they would have to do to get me seriously interested would be:
 
1. add a usable live view in back
2. devide the price of their high end +back by 2+,
3. garantee me 500+ images battery life at -15C

The cash is buried in the garden near the swimming pool.

Cheers,
Bernard
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BJL
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 07:03:22 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
Hi guys,

does anyone have an idea as to what lies ahead in medium format land?

Does Phase One have some surprises for Photokina?

Different points to consider:

a) Dalsa apparently is able to create medium format sized ccds with 92 MPx resolution. They already manufacture them for aerial photogrammetry and cartographic applications ...

http://www.azooptics.com/details.asp?newsID=7421
Diging into the sources on that aerial photography gear, it uses the same 6 micron pixel size as the current Dalsa and Kodak MF sensors, but over a larger frame:
http://www.microsoft.com/ultracam/en-us/UltraCamXp.aspx
I cannot tell if these are scanning backs with linear sensors, but that seems likely.

Anyway, the Dalsa and Kodak 6 micron options have not been around for very long, so I doubt that smaller pixel sizes are due in DMF sensors for another year or two.

Here is some speculation: a Kodak sensor sometime this year in more or less full 645 format of 56x41.5mm, so 60 to 65 MP, to catch up with Dalsa.
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BJNY
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 08:55:43 AM »
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Quote from: BJL
Here is some speculation: a Kodak sensor sometime this year in more or less full 645 format of 56x41.5mm, so 60 to 65 MP, to catch up with Dalsa.

Hoping it'll have microlenses as H4d-40
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Guillermo
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 09:46:57 AM »
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Quote from: Christopher
Well I said it before and I just hope I'm wrong.

What we will see soon:

- a 80+ Mp back, which still has the great old LCD, or a sligly better one, but still far behind current phones which cost only thousand bucks or so.
- same DR, same noise and nothing new

What I would like to see and the only thing I'm really interested:

-60Mp or similar (Can be 80, but ONLY if other things are significantly improved.
- higher DR I would love to see for example something like sensor + but that not only offers higher ISOs, but a higher DR when bined
- Live View .... I don't believe we will ever get it until I see it
- Noise improvements in the ISO 200 and 800 range
- a LCD on the back, which is GOOD, large and can be viewed anywhere.
Amen!

Even if live view is not for tomorrow, if they just could bring a really really good lcd, and to be honest at the prices they sell them they should be obliged by the consumers,
so, even if they just would bring a great lcd, that would be a significant accomplishment.
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BJNY
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 09:52:50 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Amen!

Even if live view is not for tomorrow, if they just could bring a really really good lcd, and to be honest at the prices they sell them they should be obliged by the consumers,
so, even if they just would bring a great lcd, that would be a significant accomplishment.

Or, somehow interface directly with iPhone 4 or iPad
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 09:54:10 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 10:25:22 AM »
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Am I the only one who would be ok with a 30-50mp back, as long as it was 6x7? Because seriously, that's all I want or need.
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Gigi
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 10:32:15 AM »
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Quote from: LiamStrain
Am I the only one who would be ok with a 30-50mp back, as long as it was 6x7? Because seriously, that's all I want or need.

+1 (for 6x6)
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Geoff
BJNY
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 11:12:15 AM »
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Quote from: Geoffreyg
+1 (for 6x6)

Agree
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Guillermo
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 11:24:58 AM »
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Cropping to square does not bother me that much, it would be nice but I can understand on that the manufacturers because that would be a too small market for them.
But where I can't follow them is on the ridiculous LCD.
All these external devices p....s me off. They should offer a very good integrated solution first, and then get married with I.Pad or whoever if they want to.
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PaulSchneider
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 11:26:40 AM »
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I just heard from somebody who spoke to an engineer at Hasselblad Denmark that the bottleneck actually lies in the right image processing chips those manufacturers can buy from third party suppliers. Apparently there's only one NVIDIA chip on the market that could support substantially more processing than 60 MP in a small package and the problem is that that right now this circuit eats power in the ballpark of 60 watts ... so apparently this is a serious limitation that has to be overcome too ...
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dfarkas
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 11:54:56 AM »
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Quote from: PaulSchneider
I just heard from somebody who spoke to an engineer at Hasselblad Denmark that the bottleneck actually lies in the right image processing chips those manufacturers can buy from third party suppliers. Apparently there's only one NVIDIA chip on the market that could support substantially more processing than 60 MP in a small package and the problem is that that right now this circuit eats power in the ballpark of 60 watts ... so apparently this is a serious limitation that has to be overcome too ...

The Leica S2's Maestro image processor from Fujitsu has a hardware JPG engine on chip that is capable of rendering 160MP/s. The chip is extremely low power, with both a RISC and DSP engine in a dual core configuration. This allows the S2 to render on-the-fly JPGs for image display at 360x480 (460K) pretty much instantaneously. Zooming to 100% view is also close to real-time with no hourglass or status bar. So, it's possible.

Just having a good LCD and long battery life can mean a lot to a pro. We provided an S2 for a photographer shooting hi-end magazine fashion editorial a few weeks ago. On the first day, he shot 160GB untethered (about 1900 shots with DNG+ hi-res JPG) in a five hour period and still had over 30% battery remaining. Instead of needing to go to the computer to double check lighting and focus, he worked exclusively off of the LCD which provided an accurate rendering of what the picture actually looked like. Having worked with other backs pretty regularly over the years, he couldn't get over how convenient this was and continued to be in disbelief over the battery performance over the course of his four day shoot.

I'll certainly be interested to see what everyone comes up with at Photokina and will be there firsthand to see for myself.

David


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David Farkas
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 11:59:29 AM »
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Hi,

I'd guess there is a concern about processing power, but you can add more chips. The Sony Alpha 900 uses two Bionz processor and AFAIK the Nikon D3 has 6 signal processing chips working in parallel. I'd suggest that you cannot use PC-chipsets for digital cameras. The BIONZ in my Alpha 900 processes 5 images per second while the Xeon in my MacPro handles perhaps one per second, using eight threads on four cores. So I guess that there is a need for ASICs for digital cameras.

Regarding dissipating 60 Watts, why don't you try try to hold a 60 W lightbulb in your hand, lightened of course, and you realize that there is a problem.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: PaulSchneider
I just heard from somebody who spoke to an engineer at Hasselblad Denmark that the bottleneck actually lies in the right image processing chips those manufacturers can buy from third party suppliers. Apparently there's only one NVIDIA chip on the market that could support substantially more processing than 60 MP in a small package and the problem is that that right now this circuit eats power in the ballpark of 60 watts ... so apparently this is a serious limitation that has to be overcome too ...
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2010, 12:05:23 PM »
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Thanks David,

Good info. Did that chap put an order on the S2?

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: dfarkas
The Leica S2's Maestro image processor from Fujitsu has a hardware JPG engine on chip that is capable of rendering 160MP/s. The chip is extremely low power, with both a RISC and DSP engine in a dual core configuration. This allows the S2 to render on-the-fly JPGs for image display at 360x480 (460K) pretty much instantaneously. Zooming to 100% view is also close to real-time with no hourglass or status bar. So, it's possible.

Just having a good LCD and long battery life can mean a lot to a pro. We provided an S2 for a photographer shooting hi-end magazine fashion editorial a few weeks ago. On the first day, he shot 160GB untethered (about 1900 shots with DNG+ hi-res JPG) in a five hour period and still had over 30% battery remaining. Instead of needing to go to the computer to double check lighting and focus, he worked exclusively off of the LCD which provided an accurate rendering of what the picture actually looked like. Having worked with other backs pretty regularly over the years, he couldn't get over how convenient this was and continued to be in disbelief over the battery performance over the course of his four day shoot.

I'll certainly be interested to see what everyone comes up with at Photokina and will be there firsthand to see for myself.

David
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 12:05:45 PM »
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Quote from: Geoffreyg
+1 (for 6x6)

Yes please
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 03:48:20 PM »
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i'd be interested in a phase p40+ afi with a revolving back. everything is there, all they have to do is put it together and make it available.
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 01:22:40 AM »
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I'd be interested (back and once more) if Hasselblad introduces a CFV39 back with a revolving sensor.
Other than that, booooring!. Of course I expect another kick-butt dslr from both Canon and Nikon
Eduardo


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i'd be interested in a phase p40+ afi with a revolving back. everything is there, all they have to do is put it together and make it available.
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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 03:14:05 AM »
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Quote from: LiamStrain
Am I the only one who would be ok with a 30-50mp back, as long as it was 6x7? Because seriously, that's all I want or need.

+1. and live view / good LCD/LED display along with it
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