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Author Topic: SpectraView II matrices for wide gamut monitors?  (Read 26881 times)
annamaerz
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 02:10:56 PM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
Spyder3 seem to have poor inter instrumental agreement, and I simply wouldn't trust that sensor. It has been discussed in this topic, post #17, 18:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39210

from the texte you refere to, Czorny, I understand that the regular i1d2 is even a tiny little bit worse off, than the spyder3.

Quote
Inter instrument agreement between at least 20 units:

- EyeOne Display 2 - max 18E, mean 8 E
- Spyder 3 Elite - max 15 E, mean 7 E
- DTP94b - max 3 E, mean 1,5E
- EyeOne Pro Rev D - max 3 E, mean 2 E

In the summery there is this recommandation:
Quote
All Colorimeters need an additional correction matrix on wide gamut and white LED displays. Additionally, 2 of the 3 evaluated colorimeters suffer from poor inter instrument agreement. The DTP94 (not available from Xrite any more) performed close to the EyeOne Pro in regards of inter instrument agreement and with a correction for wide gamut, it showed the best results even on the displays with lower black luminances.

Is there such a thin as a DTP94b that has been hardware corrected? I don't think so, right? Or is there any additional trick, software or whatever that can be done to correct it, when using SpectraViewII? I guesse here also, the answer is no.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2010, 02:13:07 PM »
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As far as I know, the DTP94 was not optimized for wide gamut displays.
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Andrew Rodney
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annamaerz
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2010, 02:17:02 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
The off the shelf EyeOne-Display will work. As will other Colorimeters not filtered for this kind of unit. The target white point you ask for, and what you get will likely be off. In tests I did, the differences amounted to about CCT 500K. Its not really a huge big deal because the values you ask for are not as important as getting a White Point that produces a visual match to the print next to the display. Yes, the mated colorimeter is preferable! But its not a game changer either.

 After calibration and before profiling, I always tweak the white point to match my paper white (paper white against in viewing booth, against white on the screen). I take a new reading of that white point and set is as a new target white point.  What I noticed is that I rarely correct for more than 40K ! But these 40K difference along with some magenta-green cast correction does make a big visual difference.
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annamaerz
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 02:26:40 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
As far as I know, the DTP94 was not optimized for wide gamut displays.

Is it difficult, expensive to do?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2010, 02:30:49 PM »
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Quote from: annamaerz
Is it difficult, expensive to do?

Considering its a unsupported product, no longer manufactured, yes.
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Andrew Rodney
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2010, 02:45:13 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
As far as I know, the DTP94 was not optimized for wide gamut displays.

You're correct, it is not.  I'll eventually replace mine, but my DTP94 does a pretty good job with SVII (Windows version) and my 2690.  But I'm not super-critical, so YMMV.

Paul
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dctech
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2010, 02:27:45 AM »
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Hello,

our color sensors from Spyder3 family (which is the 3rd generation) are compatible with wide gamut displays.
Please keep in mind that there is no reason to be suspicious of the Spyder3 because we are offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
So just give it a try.

Best regards,
Oliver Mews
Switzerland
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2010, 02:57:42 AM »
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Quote from: dctech
Please keep in mind that there is no reason to be suspicious of the Spyder3 because we are offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
So just give it a try.

Let's assume, after reading this, some novice, would order a spyder3, and he knows that, even though he can't tell the difference right now, he will most probably have learned enough in another two months, to be able to fully assess the instruments capabilities. But right now he doesn't know what to look for. What test should he run?

Quote from: dctech
no reason to be suspicious of the Spyder3

according to the report mentioned earlier there is maybe even reason to be a tiny little bit less suspicious about a spyder3 than about a regular i1d2, right?

Quote
Inter instrument agreement between at least 20 units:

- EyeOne Display 2 - max 18E, mean 8 E
- Spyder 3 Elite - max 15 E, mean 7 E
- DTP94b - max 3 E, mean 1,5E
- EyeOne Pro Rev D - max 3 E, mean 2 E

Though inter instrument agreement shouldn't mean anything if you only use one, or not?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 03:08:26 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2010, 04:14:08 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
according to the report mentioned earlier there is maybe even reason to be a tiny little bit less suspicious about a spyder3 than about a regular i1d2, right?

In case of PA241W I wouldn't worry - it works flawlessly even without a calibration sensor. I'd bet it's better calibrated out of the box, than after treating it with some Spyder3 or i1d2.
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AndreaPiaggesi
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2010, 05:57:29 AM »
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Thank you very much for all the information but the colirmeter choice now is even more complicated!! So we've added the DTP94 to the list

- i1Display 2
- Spyder3
- DTP94

Actually the Quato company is selling the DTP94 for about 200 EUR here in Europe (they call it Quato Silver Haze), it's a bit expensive compared with the i1d2 (about EUR 130) and the Spyder3 (about 90 EUR).

I don't know if Quato is selling the standard DTP94 or a modified version of it, but they recommed this package to calibrate their really expensive wide-gamut displays.

Probably an amatour photographer doesn't need a perfect calibration of a good monitor like the PA241W (I'm sure that anybody will get decent result with the default settings) but now I'm really confused reagarding all these colirmeters.

Does anybody know a USA reseller that have the NEC sensor in stock (other than B&H)?
Thanks!!
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2010, 07:00:15 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
I don't need decades of experience to see that a monitor has color cast or doesn't much a second monitor. I do also not need that kind of background, to see that a change of Instrument and/or software does change the outcome, and that's no anticipatory talk.

For the rest, as I told you, your critics are pointed at the wrong person, I am not a specialist and have no experience. You say different then the others (I gave you a whole list already), I don't mind, you still might be right, but chances are slim. That is what my professional experience is able to tell, as I spent decades in humanities. For the rest I am just not the right interlocutor.

I would be very pleased to follow your exchange with them. As my reason for writing here is to understand and learn. If you want to knock me down with years of experience, even though what you say goes against this or that view expressed here and there by others with decades of experience, than there is no reason to talk anymore.

Again, I would be pleased if these technical issues could be addressed in a civilized manner from now on.

thank you.

P.S.: Very interesting that you do not address your points with Czornyj, whom I was quoting among others.
This is getting silly.  You don't even have a NEC monitor yet you're basing your entire argument as if you have one right in front of you just because of what you're read on the internet.  Lets be very clear, the slight differences these colorimeters make when used on an NEC system will not produce a "color cast."  A slightly 'off' whitepoint does not a 'color cast' make.

I'm not saying I am different than anyone.  I'm not saying anyone is wrong.  What I'm saying.. more than a few times.. is that my i1d2 colorimeter makes a perfect to my reference color checker and it does it across both monitors.  And I think it's more than silly to say NEC is approving colorimeters for their monitors and then telling its customers this one works great, this one works 'not so good', etc.. Either they meet their minimum specifications or they do not.

You're making several huge mistakes on this issue.

1.  You're assuming the colorimeters will behave the same with NEC monitors as they have for your Eizo.  Clearly, if you've read the material you posted.. you'd know they do not.

2.  You're basing the defect of a "color cast" to a slightly inaccurate whitepoint.  There are more than a few degrees between the two.

And you're being especially silly to think I'm going to have exchanges with anyone who wrote anything on the internet not directly addressing me in this thread.  And yes, I've posted to Czornyi on several occasions and he's answered my questions on several occasions.

And do stop being silly about this not being civilized.  We call that whining.  No one has been rude to you or done anything but be very generous in taking time to help you.  I told you when this started that the reason people don't respond to questions in this area is because the person asking the question usually isn't ready to be helped.  They do exactly what you've done, they start many threads asking basically the same questions over and over again in different ways until they get the answer they 'think' they wanted in the first place.

To be blunt you're what I call a "Nervous Nelly" who wants all the answers set in stone up front.  This isn't that type of subject..
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Mark Paulson
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2010, 07:38:35 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Weldon
This is getting silly.  You don't even have a NEC monitor yet you're basing your entire argument as if you have one right in front of you just because of what you're read on the internet.  Lets be very clear, the slight differences these colorimeters make when used on an NEC system will not produce a "color cast."  A slightly 'off' whitepoint does not a 'color cast' make.

I'm not saying I am different than anyone.  I'm not saying anyone is wrong.  What I'm saying.. more than a few times.. is that my i1d2 colorimeter makes a perfect to my reference color checker and it does it across both monitors.  And I think it's more than silly to say NEC is approving colorimeters for their monitors and then telling its customers this one works great, this one works 'not so good', etc.. Either they meet their minimum specifications or they do not.

You're making several huge mistakes on this issue.

1.  You're assuming the colorimeters will behave the same with NEC monitors as they have for your Eizo.  Clearly, if you've read the material you posted.. you'd know they do not.

2.  You're basing the defect of a "color cast" to a slightly inaccurate whitepoint.  There are more than a few degrees between the two.

And you're being especially silly to think I'm going to have exchanges with anyone who wrote anything on the internet not directly addressing me in this thread.  And yes, I've posted to Czornyi on several occasions and he's answered my questions on several occasions.

And do stop being silly about this not being civilized.  We call that whining.  No one has been rude to you or done anything but be very generous in taking time to help you.  I told you when this started that the reason people don't respond to questions in this area is because the person asking the question usually isn't ready to be helped.  They do exactly what you've done, they start many threads asking basically the same questions over and over again in different ways until they get the answer they 'think' they wanted in the first place.

To be blunt you're what I call a "Nervous Nelly" who wants all the answers set in stone up front.  This isn't that type of subject..

ROFLMAO. The lady has made so may post on the same subject that I'm confused! I listened to two people who make a living doing color consulting and both told me to ditch the DTP 94, buy the Spyder 3 to use with my Eizo CG 222w. A long time ago they said use Color Eyes for the software and I have never looked back. I also have a i1Pro UV cut and both guys said that would work with the Eizo, but the Spyder would be better. They were right. I also just recently received my new Solux Lights. What a difference. I wanted 3700K bulbs, but had to settle for the 3500K new screw in type. The color cast in that room is gone. As Andy has said many times...quite worrying about the numbers and view the prints.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 09:20:25 AM by MarkPaulson » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2010, 08:20:51 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
In case of PA241W I wouldn't worry - it works flawlessly even without a calibration sensor. I'd bet it's better calibrated out of the box, than after treating it with some Spyder3 or i1d2.

I suspect so when you consider the cost of the spectroradiometer used by NEC at the factory to set up the calibration. Its impressive that we have a display that you don’t have to calibrate although NEC allows this if you feel you want to. I would like to run trending reports over say a year and see just how well this all works. But on paper, its a giant leap forward for users.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2010, 08:21:46 AM »
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Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
Thank you very much for all the information but the colirmeter choice now is even more complicated!! So we've added the DTP94 to the list

Take it off the list. Its no longer manufactured.
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Andrew Rodney
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annamaerz
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2010, 08:28:37 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Weldon
This is getting silly.

IMHO you are being extremely rude and condescending. I followed this thread and am wondering whether your are not able to listen or read. Please stop the pollution now, both.
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2010, 08:34:41 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
I suspect so when you consider the cost of the spectroradiometer used by NEC at the factory to set up the calibration. Its impressive that we have a display that you don’t have to calibrate although NEC allows this if you feel you want to. I would like to run trending reports over say a year and see just how well this all works. But on paper, its a giant leap forward for users.

How does this technique actually work? How can it correct over time the drift? This must surely vary from monitor to monitor? Can you point me to some reference? What is it called?

thanks

shaya
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:35:07 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2010, 08:39:22 AM »
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The display is factory calibrated using a very expensive lab grade spectroradiometer. It is then capable of tracking how colors change over time and temperature etc. An internal color engine allows you to dial in a specific luminance, white point, gamut etc. and it will calibrate to the target aim point without the need for an external sensor.
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Andrew Rodney
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shayaweiss
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2010, 08:49:13 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
The display is factory calibrated using a very expensive lab grade spectroradiometer. It is then capable of tracking how colors change over time and temperature etc. An internal color engine allows you to dial in a specific luminance, white point, gamut etc. and it will calibrate to the target aim point without the need for an external sensor.

Why should one still want an instrument? Is it still that little bit more precision that you get, if you need it?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2010, 08:51:34 AM »
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Quote from: shayaweiss
Why should one still want an instrument? Is it still that little bit more precision that you get, if you need it?

My understanding is the instrument can be used to update the internal calibration process over time for the ultimate precision.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2010, 09:03:33 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
My understanding is the instrument can be used to update the internal calibration process over time for the ultimate precision.

I see the software is called MultiProfiler and controls the SpectraView Engine, which does this automatic tracking ( http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ ).

It allows for internal "resetting/recalibration" of this self-calibration process?:

Quote
QUESTION: Is it possible to calibrate the monitor using an external color sensor?

ANSWER: Yes. The SpectraView software is available to calibrate the monitor if necessary. In addition, the OSD or MultiProfiler controls can be used together with a 3rd party application to manually adjust the monitor together with an external color sensors if necessary.

from FAQ ( http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/faq/ )
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 09:19:03 AM by shayaweiss » Logged
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