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Author Topic: Aanybody tested the new "Harman by Hahnemuhle" papers?  (Read 17529 times)
Nino Loss
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« on: June 29, 2010, 08:06:47 PM »
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As some time did already go by since the announcement of "Harman by Hahnemuhle", I wondered if anyone did do some testing on the replacement of my favorite paper, the FB AL warmtone.

nino
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Sven W
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 06:04:47 AM »
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Quote from: ninoloss
As some time did already go by since the announcement of "Harman by Hahnemuhle", I wondered if anyone did do some testing on the replacement of my favorite paper, the FB AL warmtone.

nino

I've just a couple of samples, and I know that the big release is coming at PhotoKina (Köln/Cologne) in September.
/Sven
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 06:07:45 AM »
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Quote from: Sven W
I've just a couple of samples, and I know that the big release is coming at PhotoKina (Köln/Cologne) in September.
/Sven

I also got a few small samples, not enough to run a real test. And meanwhile the paper is already discontinued here and there!
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POAH
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2010, 10:52:17 AM »
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I'm waiting for samples so I'll post after I get them
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 12:33:36 PM »
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Quote from: POAH
I'm waiting for samples so I'll post after I get them

looking forward to hear from you. I am very interested in is Gloss Baryta Warmtone for color.
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MikeFletcher
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 02:24:30 AM »
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I was told by Hahnemühle that these are identical to the Harman papers. I do have some samples but never used the Harman papers before so i can't compare.
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Sven W
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 12:56:57 PM »
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Quote from: MikeFletcher
I was told by Hahnemühle that these are identical to the Harman papers. I do have some samples but never used the Harman papers before so i can't compare.

If you compare side-by-side, they're far from identical.
The new H/H Baryta Gloss Warmtone is not so "pinkish" as the former WT Harman, and the "normal" H/H Baryta is a bit warmer.
/S
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datro
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 10:13:12 PM »
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I just took a look at ATLEX.COM to re-stock on the Harman Gloss FB AL paper and to my surprise it looks like this paper is being discontinued and  replaced by the new Harman/Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta paper.  I also checked Shades of Paper and B&H and neither one is showing the "old" Harman FB AL paper any longer except in a few limited sizes (probably remaining stock).

Can this be correct?  I remember the press announcements about the H/H "partnership" but I must have completely missed that the FB AL paper was being discontinued!!  I'm really amazed, considering how successful the FB AL paper has been in the market.  And I'm a bit unhappy since I was just getting to really like the FB AL paper and was planning on doing quite a bit of printing with it.  

Can anyone provide any more background on this move by Harman?  Is the H/H paper really different?

Dave
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 11:43:52 PM »
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Datro,

We've checked, and, no, the Harman Al Gloss Baryta is not discontinued.  And the new Harman by Hahnemuhle is the same exact paper, still made by Harman, but marketed by Hahnemuhle.  There is one "catch."  The 17"x25" is replaced by the 17"x22" size (Hahnemuhle's decision).

The latter is a big disappointment, and deserves some letters of encouragement to reinstate the 17"x25" for those folks who still use the 35mm format or similar ratios.


Aloha,

Aaron Dygart, Honolulu
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Aaron Dygart,
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AnthonyHope
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 05:38:29 AM »
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Quote from: datro
I just took a look at ATLEX.COM to re-stock on the Harman Gloss FB AL paper and to my surprise it looks like this paper is being discontinued and  replaced by the new Harman/Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta paper.  I also checked Shades of Paper and B&H and neither one is showing the "old" Harman FB AL paper any longer except in a few limited sizes (probably remaining stock).

Can this be correct?  I remember the press announcements about the H/H "partnership" but I must have completely missed that the FB AL paper was being discontinued!!  I'm really amazed, considering how successful the FB AL paper has been in the market.  And I'm a bit unhappy since I was just getting to really like the FB AL paper and was planning on doing quite a bit of printing with it.  

Can anyone provide any more background on this move by Harman?  Is the H/H paper really different?

Dave

Hi, I've been unable to get the old Harman Gloss FB AL in the uk and Harman are selling their remaining papers off at reduced prices. So it looks like its all being replaced by the Harman/Hanhemule logo
and I'm very doubtful that the papers will be indentical. So its back to testing and new ICC profiles.

Good luck

Cheers

Anthony
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 09:10:50 AM »
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We just received the new Harman by Hahnemuhle sample packs. They contain 2 sheets each of the seven substrates in the product line. We also have stock on all sizes of sheets and rolls escept the 44" rolls, which sold out before we got our first shipment.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 09:11:10 AM by Randy Carone » Logged

Randy Carone
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2010, 01:42:14 PM »
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Quote from: AnthonyHope
Hi, I've been unable to get the old Harman Gloss FB AL in the uk and Harman are selling their remaining papers off at reduced prices. So it looks like its all being replaced by the Harman/Hanhemule logo
and I'm very doubtful that the papers will be indentical. So its back to testing and new ICC profiles.

Good luck

Cheers

Anthony

Anthony and all:

I've received the new Harman by Hahnemuhle paper in 8-1/2" x 11" and 17" x 22" and tested it for ink reception the same way that I tested the previouis versions of the paper.  They've obviously tinkered with the paper since its introduction.  I've compared all three versions (yes, three). Here's what I found with my Epson 3800 and K3 pigment inks.

The first Harman Al Baryta that I measured had a very nice smooth set of curves, with a maximum black density of 2.46.  It also used very little brightener, producing a Lab "b" number of -.09, and the uninked paper surface density was .02.

Then, when they put out the Warm Tone paper, with a better black, they also improved the regular Al Baryta to get a Dmax of 2.52, virtually matching the curves of the warmtone version.  
More brighteners were used in the revised Harman Al Baryta, producing a Lab "b" number of -1.42, and the uninked paper surface density was .03
 
Now, with the black ink curve starting out the same as the latest version of the previous Harman Al, the Harman by Hahnemuhle skates up to a killer Dmax of 2.62 (unless it's going to drop as it drys more).  Lab "b" number is -1.35, (a little less brightener) and the uninked paper surface density is still .03.  At first glance, the black ink curve is a little bumpier near the top, but I'll give it a week before I do my final curves.  

From an appearance standpoint, the new paper looks very much the same and prints made with the profile from the latest version of the Harman branded paper look virtually identical (it's hard to see the difference in blacks once you get up past 2.5 or thereabouts).  You could easily get away without retesting and not see the difference, though there is a slight one in the measurements.  If your profile is made based on the original version, or if you don't know, then I'd advise that you reprofile the Hahnemuhle marketed version.  Hahnemuhle says there are profiles avaliable on their website, but I can't vouch for their quality.

There's one big improvement - the packaging.  The boxes are typical strong Hahnemuhle construction.  They are much better than the Harman boxes, and are far more likely to arrive without dings or dents in the paper.

Despite the usual cautions about scratching, and a new warning about contact with solvents like tape and other materials containing solvents or plasticizers (this should be a warning for all inkjet papers), the paper surface and appearance are identical.  The new paper still has a tendency to warp with changes in humidity, and when the ink wets the surface.

The paper should be stored upside down, and it needs to be flattened before putting it in the machine, or you will likely get head strikes.  I haven't run the large sheets, yet, but I anticipate having to use my water spray on the backs of the 17" sheets and letting them dry almost, but not quite, flat before putting them in my GPH (Great Printer from Hell).  My friend who has a 3880 does not have scratching problems, but others in dryer climates do have problems with that printer.  I tried to help a guy in New Mexico with my procedure on this forum, but he wound up solving the problem by going to matte papers.

The lack of the 17"x25" size is a big disappointment.  If you agree, please drop Hahnemuhle an email.

Aloha,

Aaron
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:46:46 PM by AaronPhotog » Logged

Aaron Dygart,
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2010, 02:37:18 PM »
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Thanks for the review. I am so disappointed about the paper size, though. I will send Hahnemuhle an email now.

Sharon
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:25:45 PM by pearlstreet » Logged

AaronPhotog
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2010, 07:07:41 PM »
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Quote from: pearlstreet
Thanks for the review. I am so disappointed about the paper size, though. I will send Hahnemuhle and email now.

Sharon

Thanks, Sharon.  There are some people at Harmon trying to convince Hahnemuhle to reinstate that size.  The more people they hear from, the more likely the chances of getting the 17"x25" back into production.

Meanwhile, some more information.  As their press release and announcements refer to Harman's coating expertise and Hahnemuhle's expertise with the paper backing, I thought I'd test the backs of the three version of the Gloss Al:

1) original version  L = 97.10, a = 1.29, b = 0.52

2) improved version by Harman L = 97.02, a = 1.27, b = -0.34

3) new Harman by Hahnemuhle version  L = 97.17, a = 1.31, b = 0.15

These numbers are average readings.  In short, it looks like the second version had some brighteners added to the paper base to compensate for a slightly darker paper, but the new paper is a little lighter than the other two, with fewer brighteners (if any) than the second version.

These numbers are very close, but the back of the new Harman by Hahnemuhle appears whiter to the eye without indicating a lot of brightener, so I'd say it's an improvement.

Aloha,

Aaron
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Aaron Dygart,
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AnthonyHope
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2010, 10:09:54 AM »
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Quote from: AaronPhotog
Anthony and all:

I've received the new Harman by Hahnemuhle paper in 8-1/2" x 11" and 17" x 22" and tested it for ink reception the same way that I tested the previouis versions of the paper.  They've obviously tinkered with the paper since its introduction.  I've compared all three versions (yes, three). Here's what I found with my Epson 3800 and K3 pigment inks.

The first Harman Al Baryta that I measured had a very nice smooth set of curves, with a maximum black density of 2.46.  It also used very little brightener, producing a Lab "b" number of -.09, and the uninked paper surface density was .02.

Then, when they put out the Warm Tone paper, with a better black, they also improved the regular Al Baryta to get a Dmax of 2.52, virtually matching the curves of the warmtone version.  
More brighteners were used in the revised Harman Al Baryta, producing a Lab "b" number of -1.42, and the uninked paper surface density was .03
 
Now, with the black ink curve starting out the same as the latest version of the previous Harman Al, the Harman by Hahnemuhle skates up to a killer Dmax of 2.62 (unless it's going to drop as it drys more).  Lab "b" number is -1.35, (a little less brightener) and the uninked paper surface density is still .03.  At first glance, the black ink curve is a little bumpier near the top, but I'll give it a week before I do my final curves.  

From an appearance standpoint, the new paper looks very much the same and prints made with the profile from the latest version of the Harman branded paper look virtually identical (it's hard to see the difference in blacks once you get up past 2.5 or thereabouts).  You could easily get away without retesting and not see the difference, though there is a slight one in the measurements.  If your profile is made based on the original version, or if you don't know, then I'd advise that you reprofile the Hahnemuhle marketed version.  Hahnemuhle says there are profiles avaliable on their website, but I can't vouch for their quality.

There's one big improvement - the packaging.  The boxes are typical strong Hahnemuhle construction.  They are much better than the Harman boxes, and are far more likely to arrive without dings or dents in the paper.

Despite the usual cautions about scratching, and a new warning about contact with solvents like tape and other materials containing solvents or plasticizers (this should be a warning for all inkjet papers), the paper surface and appearance are identical.  The new paper still has a tendency to warp with changes in humidity, and when the ink wets the surface.

The paper should be stored upside down, and it needs to be flattened before putting it in the machine, or you will likely get head strikes.  I haven't run the large sheets, yet, but I anticipate having to use my water spray on the backs of the 17" sheets and letting them dry almost, but not quite, flat before putting them in my GPH (Great Printer from Hell).  My friend who has a 3880 does not have scratching problems, but others in dryer climates do have problems with that printer.  I tried to help a guy in New Mexico with my procedure on this forum, but he wound up solving the problem by going to matte papers.

The lack of the 17"x25" size is a big disappointment.  If you agree, please drop Hahnemuhle an email.

Aloha,

Aaron


Aaron, thank you very much for the test info.

Cheers

Anthony
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John R Smith
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 03:20:00 AM »
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I just got a pack of the H by H gloss baryta warmtone yesterday, and did some preliminary testing. Ever since it was introduced, I have used the Harman Gloss FB Al as my paper of choice for finished prints, and I have printed several hundred photographs on it, so I am quite used to the look and feel of the old paper.

Printing B/W last night to my Epson using the K3 inkset in the ABW mode via Lightroom and Eric Chan's ABW profiles, the prints are as near as dammit identical on the old and new papers. I have no sophisticated measuring equipment other than my eyes, but the weight, feel, tonal range and hue of the two papers exhibits so little difference that if I hadn't pencilled their IDs on the reverse it would be easy to confuse them under both tungsten light and my 6500 kelvin bulb.

I might be imagining it, but the one thing I did notice was that it seems to me that the new paper shows a little bit more gloss differential in the highlight areas.

It would be interesting to know how others get on printing in colour using the new Harman profiles.

John
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 06:58:56 AM »
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Curious that some think the Harman by Hahnemuhle is the same as the original Harmam FB Al.  It absolutely is not!  I used up the last of my Harman FB Al and received a new 30 sheet package from the Hahnemuhle facility in Illinois, USA, yesterday.  The gloss differential is greater on this new paper.  The surface has slightly more texture.  The white is slightly warmer in tone.

But, the most glaring problem is that this box of sheets had absolutely the worst curl of any cut sheets that I have ever used from any manufacturer.  I tried decurling a couple of sheets before printing on my Epson 3800.  No luck, though, as I had a number of head strikes at the beginning, causing the paper to slew slightly and double print for the first inch or so.  Regardless, I did a couple of prints, enough to see the differences others have also observed.  I have left the rest of the box on a decurling tube I used in the past when cutting roll paper into sheets, but even then it looks rather resistant to decurling.

Come on Hahnemuhle.  Quality control needs to be better, and this should not be passed off as the original Harman FB Al.  It clearly is not.  Very disappointing, as I thought the original Harman FB Al was a very superior paper.

Mike Bailey
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John R Smith
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 07:46:57 AM »
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Quote from: Mike Bailey
But, the most glaring problem is that this box of sheets had absolutely the worst curl of any cut sheets that I have ever used from any manufacturer.  

Mike Bailey

Mike

That's very odd. My pack of A4 was dead flat, better than the original Gloss FB.

John
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 08:09:39 AM »
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I am hoping the curl problem was an anomaly.  Your experience with flat sheets might indicate this.  I sent the batch number and reference number on the box to Hahnemuhle to see if they have a response to the problem, but since this was yesterday, it's a little soon for me to expect a response yet.

Mike
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John R Smith
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 08:45:19 AM »
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To elaborate a little on this problem of paper curl -

The original Harman FB Gloss was certainly very prone to this. The new Harman by Hahnemule may be less so, or the same, I don't know. But I have mitigated the problem by adopting the following strategy -

* Always store the boxes flat. I know it is terribly tempting to store them vertically, like books, because it saves space, but just don't do it.

* The plastic bag inside the box I am sure does help to protect the paper from environmental contaminents, but it also makes the paper curl up because the bag gets folded and scrunched up in the corner of the boxes. So the first thing I do is strip the outer shrink-wrap off, open the box and remove the paper from the inner bag.

* Then replace the paper carefully in the box, without the bag, but the opposite way up, glossy side down. The way it is despatched (glossy side up) contributes to curl.

* When you are about to make a print, remove the box lid, tilt one end of the paper stack out of the box (carefully!) and remove the bottom sheet of paper for the print. This is the flattest sheet, obviously, because of the weight of paper above it.

* I forgot the most important part of the cunning plan. We always have two boxes of paper on the go, not just one. As you remove sheets from the printing box, you add new sheets to the top from box 2. That way you always have a good weight of paper on the lowest sheet, which is nice and flat when you come to use it. When box 2 runs out, you buy another, and carry on.

I know many of you will already have all of this figured out, but I think at least some of the folks reading these threads may be just starting on their journey . . . .

John
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:47:28 AM by John R Smith » Logged

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