Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Seems like you can make a really excellent sRGB mode on NEC PA  (Read 12600 times)
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2010, 04:01:56 AM »
ReplyReply

I got to use my NEC puck on another PA241W.

One thing I noticed is that if I measured white point right after startup I got .310,.329 pretty close to the standard, but if I let them warm up for 15-30min I got the .307-.308-.330-.334 range values.

What compensation mode and what part of the screen you measure the primaries on also makes a bit of a difference.

sRGB spec is:
R .640,.330
G .300,.600
B .150,.060
W .3127,.3290

For screen1 I got values along the lines of
R .634-.635, .330
G .297-.300, .601-.605
B .151, .060-.062
W .307-.308, .326-.331

For screen2:
R .639-.640, .325-.326
G .299-.301, .602-.604
B .152,.063-.064
W.306-.310 (mostly near .307),.330-.334

Anyway it seems clear that:

0. the NEC puck I have is doing a pretty solid job on measuring sRGB primaries at least, probably within .002-.003 of perfection

1. since probably no screen under $4000+ is super, super 100% even, there always has to be a bit of something off a little someway or another, especially the white point, so modest variations are sort of meaningless.

2. the sets will vary a bit in factory set primaries, but not too much really, i'm sure the probe itself is a bit off but there were some consistent difference, the screen2 tended to have a bit higher By and Rx and a bit lower Ry compared to screen1 so there will be modest screen to screen differences from the factory, but it would seem they probably vary at most .005 and more like .001-002 on avg, not bad at all

3. aside perhaps from the WB being a bit cool (and you are free to adjust it yourself), the sRGB mode is pretty solid indeed

For reference here are the primaries as measured by a DTP94b of a Samsung HDTV (standard, NON-wide gamut) after careful calibration:
R .624,.334
G .310,.574
B .149,.059
W .313,.329
(all luminances within 1%)

Notice that this actual NON-wide gamut display appears (granted we are now using two different probes, etc. so some error may be false and it all gets a bit dicey) to have a noticeably farther off from spec R and G, only B is a trace better.

Overall, the sRGB emulation mode of the PA241W actually comes closer to spec than a typical sRGB display (and one that even has a full-control  CMS at that) at least in terms of gamut even straight from the factory! The WB does appear as if it probabyl does come a bit cool from the factory (although it could just be my probe) but it can be adjusted. So I currently have the sRGB mode more true to sRGB than my sRGB HDTV.




Of course there is the whole metamerism issue, which is kind of a tricky thing.




In terms of native gamut screen 1 and screen 2 had one slight difference measured, for some reason screen 2 By only went down to 0.06 instead of 0.055, which seems odd.


The screens were fairly different in the ways in which each demonstrated some non-uniformity (as all screens do).
 
And for photo editing all of this is somewhat irrelevant, for the most part (maybe someone picky ones to drop to sRGB to pick out subtle skin tones within the sRGB gamut), since you'd certainly use the native gamut. But for all the non-managed stuff....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 04:06:38 AM by LarryBaum » Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1367



WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2010, 04:13:47 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rhossydd
Thanks Rick. No mention of a 27" Spectraview model on the UK NEC site yet.

Can you say what advantage the Spectraview software offers over Multiprofiler ?
I can live without specially selected panels and a hood, but I'd like to know if the Sv software will be worth the extra cash.
Multiprofiler calibrates and profiles the display without the sensor, basing on factory calibration.
US Spectraview II calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor
European Spectraview display 4 calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor, but it only works with selected, certified Spectraview units, that are unblocked in the firmware.

The options are: you can get regular PA and calibrate it using Multiprofiler, you can get regular PA + Spectraview II (only available in US), or you can get the european Spectraview Reference PA, with the hood and Spectraview display 4 (aka basICColor) software.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 04:15:23 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Steve Weldon
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1445



WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2010, 06:41:33 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Czornyj
Multiprofiler calibrates and profiles the display without the sensor, basing on factory calibration.
US Spectraview II calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor
European Spectraview display 4 calibrates and profiles the display with the sensor, but it only works with selected, certified Spectraview units, that are unblocked in the firmware.

The options are: you can get regular PA and calibrate it using Multiprofiler, you can get regular PA + Spectraview II (only available in US), or you can get the european Spectraview Reference PA, with the hood and Spectraview display 4 (aka basICColor) software.
Do you know their logic behind offering these differences?  It seems the Europeans would appreciate having access to a sensor and SVII without spending a fortune for a reference series monitor.

This makes me wonder.. my NEC 2690's were special ordered for me by NEC Thailand and took forever to arrive.  Did I get lucky getting models I can use with SVII?  Or am I possibly using SVII and I'm a total dolt because the firmware is blocking whatever (what does it block?).. Or are all Asian based models the same as the USA?

Two things of interest:

1.  My NEC Colorimeter has been shipped via Amazon FROM NEC after "not available" for the last 30 days or so.. and ordering them when they were listed as available and having them become not available at several places.  New pucks?  I dunno.. but it should be here by the end of next week and it will be interesting to see what differences if any there are compared to my 1id2..

2.  If any European is interested in buying US products.. but the store will not ship it directly to you.  A very common (and becoming even more common) issue as international credit card fraud organized crime becomes a huge problem.. I've recently found and have tested a business that lets you order and ship your item to this businesses US address.. where you then go on line and fill out your own custom forms (just tell them there's a $10 stuffed tiger in that big box), and then they'll shop it to you via your carrier of choice.  Their fees are very reasonable and so far they've been very easy to deal with.   For instance.. on Amazon a NEC LCD2690uxi2 is about $850.  No tax is charged to have it delivered to the US address.  An inexpensive shipping option to Europe might take 2-3 weeks and cost $150-$200 USD's.. Not a bad savings..

The issue with this and why I didn't do this for my monitors (they charged me full retain on outgoing monitors) was I wanted the 4 year warranty and NEC Thailand picks up and delivers for repairs and leaves you a nice loaner..  But I did go this route for my puck and software (NEC Thailand claims they can't get these items which I find strange) and a few other items.
Logged

----------------------------------------------
http://www.BangkokImages.com
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6818


WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2010, 09:03:50 AM »
ReplyReply

I'm interesting in picking up any experience members of this forum may have using these PA series displays in a Mac Pro with the Radeon 4870 graphics card. The reason I ask is because Lloyd Chambers (DigLloyd) - on his website - has advised readers about issues he's experienced using that card Mac Performance Guide, yet it is a more powerful device than the nVidia GT120 and ATI/AMD are said to have particular expertise on 10-bit display support.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
rickhatCHROMiX
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2010, 09:04:49 PM »
ReplyReply

Paul, Mark:

MultiProfiler software and SpectraView software are two different softwares. There is some confusion between the 'SpectraView Engine' which is on all PA models and the SpectraView calibration software. The SpectraView Engine is the name of the new 'processor' inside the PA that correlates the initial factory calibration with internal luminance, temperature and time monitoring of the monitor. To reiterate, the SpectraView Engine and SpectraView software are separate. You get the SpectraView Engine automatically when you buy a PA model. You would need to buy SpectraView software ($89 at NEC online) or get it in an SV Bundle. MultiProfiler is free, so far.

MultiProfiler does many things:

- Switches between Picture Modes (5)
- Auto creates a profile based on the current Picture Mode
- Interacts this profile with the OS
- Allows insertion of a different simulation profile into the 3D LUT
- and more...
<http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/>

Although newer, MultiProfiler seems to be intended as a utility and facilitator. MP relies on the PA models initial internal calibration from the NEC factory. This is a key difference between MultiProfiler and SpectraView. SpectraView calibration software (which is currently in revision) allows the user to update the internal factory calibration reference as they wish (once a month, or whatever your calibration routine is). As a monitor degrades, this is a clear advantage for SpectraView. But SpectraView does not do all the things listed above that MultiProfiler does.

Finally, its very likely that many discerning users will want to use both SpectraView and MultiProfiler, even though there is some overlap. For our higher end customers, we would most always recommend both at the moment.

I hope that helps.

Rick Hatmaker
CHROMiX


Quote from: Rhossydd
Could someone please clarify the situation with these NEC PA series monitors for me ?
The PA series are supplied with Multiprofiler software that uses a "Spectraview engine" according to NEC's webs site ( http://www.necdisplay.com/multiprofiler/ ).

As yet they don't seem to be offered as a "Spectraview" variant. (ie the the better old Multisyncs were offered as 'Spectraview' monitors with selected units, hoods and 'Spectraview(aka Basicolor) calibration and profiling software).

Is it planned to offer to 'Spectraview' model based on the PA series monitors or are they equal to the older series already ?

Can the supplied Multiprofiler software match the old Spectraview software with respect to controlling the hardware of the monitor, as seems to be implied in the link above ?

Anyone any idea if the previous global differences between NEC monitors continue with this series ? (In the past US models of the Spectraview weren't supplied with the software and had to be bought in addition to the monitor as I understand it). Will European versions have the Multiproifler software included ?

Edit: As it's possible to freely download the Multiprofilier software direct from NEC's site without problems, I'd guess it's a global supply.

Thanks

Paul
In the UK
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6818


WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2010, 09:12:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Rick, that clarifies a lot about the display software options. I'm still wondering about the choice of a Radeon 4870 to drive it. Any experience anyone here has using it would be helpful to know about.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2010, 10:02:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Mark D Segal
I'm interesting in picking up any experience members of this forum may have using these PA series displays in a Mac Pro with the Radeon 4870 graphics card. The reason I ask is because Lloyd Chambers (DigLloyd) - on his website - has advised readers about issues he's experienced using that card Mac Performance Guide, yet it is a more powerful device than the nVidia GT120 and ATI/AMD are said to have particular expertise on 10-bit display support.

Sorry can't help there at all.


From his review though:
"The PA271W gamut is terrific: it encompasses more greens, and also more reds and deep blues; it appears to be a strict superset of the LCD3090WQXi gamut. This is very impressive, especially since that inner triangle (yellow border) is the AdobeRGB gamut, which cannot represent reds well at all! The PA271W does have a higher contrast ratio, so this might explain its wider gamut versus the 30" 3090WQXi. "

I can say that the contrast ratio has less than nothing to do with the gamut of a display.

And more importantly, while it is true that the gamut of the PA series DOES extend violets/reds/magentas beyond AdobeRGB it is also true that many, many people get tricked by the traditional 2D slice of the 3D gamuts shown and think that AdobeRGB does nothing to expand reds/magentas over what sRGB does, when AdobeRGB actually does extend them considerably.

On the particular slice that is usually shown, it doesn't extend them any. However, look at slices at different levels along the Y axis and you'll see it expands them greatly at times. More to the point bring up any really intense sunset photo and then compare it as such: ProphotoRGB vs AdobeRGB vs sRGB. You will likely very notice very little difference on the NEC PA between the photo in pRGB or aRGB but likely some major differences when it is instead in sRGB. It's sort of become almost a given that everyone goes around and says that all AdobeRGB does is expand greens and cyans and that it does nothing for photos not having neon greens of deep cyans or blue-greens when it actually can have a very dramatic affect on how intense sunset orange-pink-reds or dramatic fall foliage look. I would even go so far as to say that more typical photos are helped by AdobeRGB in those colors than in the greens believe it or not.

That said the beyond AdobeRGB red/magenta zone that some wide gamut monitors, such as the NEC PA series, support certainly can be helpful. A photo taken of lupines shows the entire outer lower petal as a single shade when displayed in aRGB or sRGB and yet suddenly splits into two very distinct shades when in pRGB mode and viewed on the NEC. Sunsets sometimes pick up a few subtle extra shades too. And I never could get certain truly intense Japanese maples in the Fall to look close to how they did in real life before. Quite a few of those shots require some beyond aRGB shades in order to look correct. That said AdobeRGB itself already does bring you most of what you were missing (when using sRGB) in your fall foliage or sunset photos, although there will be a few shots with major differences.

I have to say that in general wide gamut monitors are nice indeed. Lots of flower and sunset photos never did quite come out right before and I always figured I must have set the WB wrong or blown a channel or done something wrong in general, but now I see that much of the problem was that my sRGB displays simply could not display the shades that actually had been captured just fine and when channels were blow they were only blow in sRGB colorspace. I also see that on a few photos I did some weird things trying to make up for missing colors on fall leaves, sunsets, flowers, deep blue-green ocean water, etc. when I edited photos before. Granted a majority of photos show pretty much no difference sRGB vs wide gamut, but when they do, it can be dramatic at times (sunsets,flowers,fall foliage are the most common cases).
Logged
Rhossydd
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1888


WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2010, 01:06:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Rick, Czornyj

Thanks for the additional information.
The difficulty for us in Europe is that NEC have made no announcement of a Spectraview variant of the PA 271 yet. Although on previous experience they'll charge a very heavy premium for an SV version, currently about 35% more and no puck included either, at that rate it will be about $750 more!

I'm left pondering if just getting a PA will be good enough and if my existing Basicolor 4 software(supplied by NEC as SV) will work with the new monitor. Even if it won't, will I really loose much performance by just using the factory calibrations and profiling with GMB PMP or buying a newer copy of Basicolor when realeased ? (if it will function fully on a PA series monitor and not be crippled with SV hardware).

As the owner of a failing SV1980 with a big yellow stripe down it, I need a replacement monitor very soon and have a difficult decision to make in the next couple of weeks. Anyone know if the US PA271 is multi voltage/frequency ?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 01:09:41 AM by Rhossydd » Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1367



WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2010, 04:35:06 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Rhossydd
Rick, Czornyj

Thanks for the additional information.
The difficulty for us in Europe is that NEC have made no announcement of a Spectraview variant of the PA 271 yet. Although on previous experience they'll charge a very heavy premium for an SV version, currently about 35% more and no puck included either, at that rate it will be about $750 more!

I'm left pondering if just getting a PA will be good enough and if my existing Basicolor 4 software(supplied by NEC as SV) will work with the new monitor. Even if it won't, will I really loose much performance by just using the factory calibrations and profiling with GMB PMP or buying a newer copy of Basicolor when realeased ? (if it will function fully on a PA series monitor and not be crippled with SV hardware).

As the owner of a failing SV1980 with a big yellow stripe down it, I need a replacement monitor very soon and have a difficult decision to make in the next couple of weeks. Anyone know if the US PA271 is multi voltage/frequency ?

basICColor won't hardware calibrate a non Spectraview Reference PA panel at all - it checks the firmware and doesn't acces the internal LUT of the display, when it's not an EU Spectraview version. You can still use US Spectraview II profiler - it works democratically with all PA displays.

As a rule - in EU we have to pay more for something that complies with standards. Spectraview Reference displays are certified by Fogra, manually selected and verified by a technican, so we pay premium cash for a quality double check, and a blessing of graphic technology research institute. We don't need to be ISO certified photographers, so it's not that really important for us - we can get regular PA display, use Multiprofiler, or get Spectraview II kit from US just to feel better
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 04:48:04 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Nino Loss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433


« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2010, 06:02:14 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Czornyj
or get Spectraview II kit from US just to feel better

Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.
Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1367



WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2010, 06:15:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ninoloss
Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.

If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectroradiometer to be 100% sure.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 06:24:31 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Nino Loss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433


« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2010, 06:21:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Czornyj
If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectrophotometer to be ascertaind.

I hear, but the monitor is new, the factory calibration is therefor recent, and the drift can be more easily predicted than when the display will get older. What will be in half a year, or a year, or more? Will the software predictions of the drift still be accurate? Can they be? With all the possible variables.
Logged
probep
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 149


« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2010, 07:32:57 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ninoloss
I hear, but the monitor is new, the factory calibration is therefor recent, and the drift can be more easily predicted than when the display will get older. What will be in half a year, or a year, or more? Will the software predictions of the drift still be accurate? Can they be? With all the possible variables.
I don't think that Multiprofiler software or NEC hardware can predict (and compensate) any drift in NEC monitors.
BTW the native White Point CCT in my NEC 2690WUXi2 drifted from 6500 K to 5700 K in a year.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 08:04:50 AM by probep » Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1367



WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2010, 12:33:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: probep
I don't think that Multiprofiler software or NEC hardware can predict (and compensate) any drift in NEC monitors.
BTW the native White Point CCT in my NEC 2690WUXi2 drifted from 6500 K to 5700 K in a year.

This is not 100% sure information, and I don't rememer the details exactly, but I've heard, that PA has some kind of CCFL drift compensation. It seems to be predictible - my 3090WQXi native wtpt also drifted to CCT 5700K after 1600h of work.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 12:34:10 PM by Czornyj » Logged

Steve Weldon
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1445



WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2010, 01:20:13 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ninoloss
Unfortunately this does not seem to be an option any longer, as the NEC sensor is completely out of stock, even at the NEC store itself. I am trying to get hold of one myself without success.
For some reason a few weeks ago they pulled them from the shelves (unconfirmed rumor backed up by 4 different places I ordered them "in stock" and then they weren't..)..

However, the good news is mine shipped (ordered from Amazon and shipped from NEC) this week..

Try Amazon.
Logged

----------------------------------------------
http://www.BangkokImages.com
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2010, 05:49:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Czornyj
If you have PA with Multiprofiler, it's really not a matter of life and death. To be honest - I'm not even sure what really works better - Spectraview with the sensor, or Multiprofiler without a sensor. The differences are small enought to be caused by sensors inconsistency, we'd have to test it with reference lab grade spectroradiometer to be 100% sure.

tentatively, by comparing with a color checker chart in a room with windows open but not direct sun (so hopefully vaguely D65 overcastish), both the SVII calibration and factory preset actually looked closer to what I saw on the chart than my DTP94b calibrated sRGB HDTV showed (that was only calibrated using controls, not with profiling software yet though).
Logged
davewolfs
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 97


« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2010, 06:02:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Could someone comment on the 3D LUT feature of these new PA series displays.  What exactly is the advantage of this vs a 2690WUXi2 calibrated for either sRGB Mode or Adobe RGB Space?  Does this new 3D LUT allow non managed color apps i.e. windows  to look normal while in wide gamut mode?
Logged
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2010, 10:21:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: davewolfs
Could someone comment on the 3D LUT feature of these new PA series displays.  What exactly is the advantage of this vs a 2690WUXi2 calibrated for either sRGB Mode or Adobe RGB Space?  Does this new 3D LUT allow non managed color apps i.e. windows  to look normal while in wide gamut mode?

nothing can do that other than color-managed software, but you can make a wide gamut MONITOR when NOT in wide gamut mode work 100% fine with non-color managed stuff by putting it into sRGB emulation mode (all sRGB stuff will look fine, whether the program is managed or not) or emulation aRGB mode (but only images in aRGB will look normal in non-color managed stuff then, sRGB stuff will look weird).
Logged
davewolfs
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 97


« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2010, 10:38:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: LarryBaum
nothing can do that other than color-managed software, but you can make a wide gamut MONITOR when NOT in wide gamut mode work 100% fine with non-color managed stuff by putting it into sRGB emulation mode (all sRGB stuff will look fine, whether the program is managed or not) or emulation aRGB mode (but only images in aRGB will look normal in non-color managed stuff then, sRGB stuff will look weird).

Doesn't the existing series already do this?  I guess what is the difference with the 2690WUXI2 sRGB mode and this new series?
Logged
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2010, 03:01:11 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: davewolfs
Doesn't the existing series already do this?  I guess what is the difference with the 2690WUXI2 sRGB mode and this new series?

Actually I guess you are correct. The 2690^2 version does appear to let you calibrate the white point of the sRGB mode, the original version did not.

It still only has 1D 12bit LUTs and not 14bit 3D though so hah!

(without a 3D LUT green often looks like orange and sometimes white switches with black   )
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 03:03:24 AM by LarryBaum » Logged
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad