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Author Topic: Lens Correction in LR3  (Read 5032 times)
HickersonJasonC
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« on: July 08, 2010, 04:54:50 PM »
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I downloaded the trial of LR3 today. First thing I notice in the Lens Corrections module is that the two lenses I used on a test shoot today weren't automatically detected and applied to my photos even though they are both listed and selectable in the drop down menu.

I was shooting with a Canon 70-200 f4 IS and a 17-40 f4 on a Canon 20D.

What's going on here? Is the 20D not (or not yet) supported somehow? Are DNGs supported also?
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Schewe
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 05:32:03 PM »
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Has nothing to do with the camera...it's the lens that dictates. I know there's a profile for the 70-200mm F2.8, I don't think the F4 is available. Also the 17-40mm is a way old lens...the more recent wide zooms are profiled. It's just a matter of building up the profile matrix over time. Sooner of later a lens will prolly get profile by somebody somewhere...you do know you can get Adobe Lens Profile Creator from Labs.Adobe.com and make profiles yourself, right?
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MBehrens
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2010, 06:32:13 PM »
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Quote from: HickersonJasonC
the two lenses I used on a test shoot today weren't automatically detected and applied to my photos even though they are both listed and selectable in the drop down menu.

I don't know why this does not work. My Sigma and Canon lenses are not detected automatically either. I won't mention my camera model to not confuse the issue.

The Enable Profile Corrections checkbox seems to be set on a image by image basis. If I select the checkbox, then the Make:, now the Model: and Profile: are selected automatically.

I don't see a preference to have lens corrections enabled by default.

I setup a preset for each of my lenses, which makes it a little easier. But to apply to many images I need to filter by lens then apply. Otherwise a chance that I'll apply the wrong profile with the preset.
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2010, 06:48:46 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Has nothing to do with the camera...it's the lens that dictates. I know there's a profile for the 70-200mm F2.8, I don't think the F4 is available. Also the 17-40mm is a way old lens...the more recent wide zooms are profiled. It's just a matter of building up the profile matrix over time. Sooner of later a lens will prolly get profile by somebody somewhere...you do know you can get Adobe Lens Profile Creator from Labs.Adobe.com and make profiles yourself, right?

There definitely IS a profile for both of these lenses. As I said in my original post, I can select both the 70-200 f4 IS and the 17-40 f/4 profiles from the drop down menu and see the changes. The problem is that it is not selected automatically for some reason.

I know about the profile maker, but isn't the listed profile adequate? I just want to know how to turn it on automatically.

The reason I wondered about compatibility with my camera/lens combo is I would think two or three different profiles would be needed for any given Canon "L" lens: one for full frame cameras, one for the 1.3x crop sensors and one for the 1.6x sensors... I only see one available profile for all my lenses except the 70-200 (which has one specifically for the 1DsIII) and there is no indication for which sensor size the profile works.
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dchew
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2010, 07:48:23 PM »
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I have the 70-400 f/4 IS and LR recognizes it fine.  

Dave
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2010, 08:12:34 PM »
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Quote from: HickersonJasonC
...  I would think two or three different profiles would be needed for any given Canon "L" lens: one for full frame cameras, one for the 1.3x crop sensors and one for the 1.6x sensors...
And I would think a lens correction is lens correction is a lens correction, given that a lens distorts in one way only, regardless of the body. Of course, different crops would show less of the one and the same peripheral distortion, i.e, would not change the distortion itself. As the camera model is already embedded in EXIF, there is no need for separate lens profiles for each crop. Methinks  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 08:14:58 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2010, 08:47:22 PM »
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Quote from: dchew
I have the 70-400 f/4 IS and LR recognizes it fine.  

Dave

Dave, I notice in my EXIF in LR the lens is listed simply as "70.0-200.0 mm" not 70-200mm f4 IS or some more specific name. Is yours listed this way? And is LR automatically finding and applying the correct profile for you or do you have to tick the box to enable lens corrections for each image?
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Peter Stacey
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 12:23:41 AM »
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Quote from: John-S
I would rather have someone who knows what they're doing (hopefully Adobe) to profile lenses than DIYers around the world. That's what DXO does.

Interesting statement John and I guess you haven't used the profile creator yet? In all of the profiles, even the ones created by 'DIYers', Adobe are integral to the process because the software developed by them creates the profile. The DIYer's just need to produce a good set of photographs that the software can use.

Which then raises a question. Why do you think Adobe have any more credibility in producing good quality input images than anyone else? What about the company as a software developer makes you think they can take better quality images than the community of photographers that use their products?

That's an off topic question intended to be rhetorical.

I trust Adobes ability to produce quality, useable photographs for the software (and more so because of the involvement of Eric in the process), but there are also some pretty skilled photographers using their products.

Having a community producing profiles isn't a bad thing. Even if some of the profiles are improved at a later date, having the option to use them or not is still better than no option when the profile doesn't exist yet.

Regards,

Peter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 04:54:55 AM by Peter Stacey » Logged

dchew
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 04:50:19 AM »
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Quote from: HickersonJasonC
Dave, I notice in my EXIF in LR the lens is listed simply as "70.0-200.0 mm" not 70-200mm f4 IS or some more specific name. Is yours listed this way? And is LR automatically finding and applying the correct profile for you or do you have to tick the box to enable lens corrections for each image?

No, my EXIF says "EF70-200mm f/4L IS USM." There is also distance and focal length info in the EXIF when I use this lens. Is that showing up with yours? I'm using a 5D II. I have a 20D around. I'll try to find it and let you know what that does.

I have to enable lens correction, i.e. the check box in the far upper left corner of the lens correction panel, but I do not have to pick the specific lens correction profile.  I actually like it this way, but I'd imagine you could apply it automatically through a preset that is auto applied at import if you want.

Dave
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Bo Koue Callesen
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2010, 05:24:20 AM »
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Quote from: HickersonJasonC
I downloaded the trial of LR3 today. First thing I notice in the Lens Corrections module is that the two lenses I used on a test shoot today weren't automatically detected and applied to my photos even though they are both listed and selectable in the drop down menu.

I was shooting with a Canon 70-200 f4 IS and a 17-40 f4 on a Canon 20D.

What's going on here? Is the 20D not (or not yet) supported somehow? Are DNGs supported also?

The 20d is missing the lens brand name (Canon) in the EXIF data (or it's placed where LR can't find it), just select Canon in the make and the lenses should be found automatically, at least thats what I do with my old 20d house. Same problem with the 5d if extender is used, not a problem with the 5dII.

/Bo
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loonsailor
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2010, 10:34:24 AM »
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Quote from: Peter Stacey
Which then raises a question. Why do you think Adobe have any more credibility in producing good quality input images than anyone else? What about the company as a software developer makes you think they can take better quality images than the community of photographers that use their products?

Having a community producing profiles isn't a bad thing. Even if some of the profiles are improved at a later date, having the option to use them or not is still better than no option when the profile doesn't exist yet.

Peter

It's not about credibility, it's about quality.  I'm assuming that the way in which the profile photos are taken is important.  The target must be extremely flat, the lighting completely even (or vignetting correction will be screwy), the target exactly square to the camera, etc.  It's not trivial to get all of that right.  I'm sure some community-generated profiles will be very well done, but I expect that some will be created more casually.  If somebody is doing a bunch of profiles - whether Adobe or a lens mfg. like Sigma - they will hopefully take the time to get the environment right and make them properly.
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 01:16:18 PM »
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Quote from: bcalles
The 20d is missing the lens brand name (Canon) in the EXIF data (or it's placed where LR can't find it), just select Canon in the make and the lenses should be found automatically, at least thats what I do with my old 20d house. Same problem with the 5d if extender is used, not a problem with the 5dII.

/Bo

When I select "Canon" the lens LR selects is "EOS 1D Mk III 70-200 mm f4 IS." I'm guessing this will give less than best results on my 20D, and in fact, the results are VERY different (much more correction applied) from the generic "ADOBE 70-200 f4 IS" profile listed there as well. Which makes me further wary of camera profiles created with a full frame camera being used on a 1.6x crop sensor camera like the 20D.
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Peter Stacey
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2010, 02:05:08 PM »
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Quote from: loonsailor
It's not about credibility, it's about quality.  I'm assuming that the way in which the profile photos are taken is important.  The target must be extremely flat, the lighting completely even (or vignetting correction will be screwy), the target exactly square to the camera, etc.  It's not trivial to get all of that right.  I'm sure some community-generated profiles will be very well done, but I expect that some will be created more casually.  If somebody is doing a bunch of profiles - whether Adobe or a lens mfg. like Sigma - they will hopefully take the time to get the environment right and make them properly.

Totally agree. Quality is what I wrote twice. But it's not like you're forced to use the profiles. If one is there, you have a choice to use it or not. If it isn't there, you don't have any choice and it doesn't take much to see if an available profile is doing what you hope it is doing.

In relation to setting up for the shots, a couple of my friends have very good setups (extremely professional as they are based out of a high end studio in The Hague and service the Dutch royal family, several of the more wealthy clients in the city and a number of the international organisations baed here). I have no problems using the profiles they've made and the one's I've produced for my older Nikon lenses. It's good to be able to use them v. not having the option.

Regards,

Peter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 02:07:15 PM by Peter Stacey » Logged

Bo Koue Callesen
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 02:58:07 PM »
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Quote from: HickersonJasonC
When I select "Canon" the lens LR selects is "EOS 1D Mk III 70-200 mm f4 IS." I'm guessing this will give less than best results on my 20D, and in fact, the results are VERY different (much more correction applied) from the generic "ADOBE 70-200 f4 IS" profile listed there as well. Which makes me further wary of camera profiles created with a full frame camera being used on a 1.6x crop sensor camera like the 20D.

LR knows about the crop factor and will take that into account (when the profile have been made with a full frame body), you are all set to use the profiles.

/bo
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 03:19:17 PM »
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Quote from: bcalles
LR knows about the crop factor and will take that into account (when the profile have been made with a full frame body), you are all set to use the profiles.

/bo

Good to know. . . So, any idea why Adobe ships LR with a profile specific to the 1D Mk II? Or why that profile looks so different than the standard profile for that lens? I can post examples if that is helpful.
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2010, 06:59:02 PM »
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Here are a couple of screen shots showing what I am seeing.

The image here is a DNG file and aside from setting white balance, white point and black point, they are untouched. Note the significant difference in vignette and barrel distortion correction between the two 17-40 f/4L profiles given.

[attachment=23074:Screen_s...39.17_PM.png]
[attachment=23076:Screen_s...39.28_PM.png]

If I am correct and sensor size is an issue, my 20D would require even less correction than either of the profiles given. This may be an issue with the 20D not communicating EXIF data correctly as someone pointed out earlier in the thread or Lightroom being unable to extract 20D data correctly. Regardless, it seems that LR3 lens correction are not fully compatible with these lenses on all cameras.

On a more positive note, I am finding the custom lens correction features very usable and well laid out. I am able to correct for vertical and barrel distortion much quicker than I was able to achieve in PS and the constrain to crop option is really great (this never really worked well for me in PS).

Also, I'm seeing vast improvements with the 2010 process version with my files. See attached.

[attachment=23075:Screen_s...43.56_PM.png]
[attachment=23077:Screen_s...44.02_PM.png]
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madmanchan
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2010, 08:55:37 PM »
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Hi everyone,

I'll try to clear up some of the issue raised in this thread.

Camera Raw 6.1 & Lightroom 3.0 shipped lens profiles for all five Canon 70-200 lenses. They are available when you are processing raw files.

CR & LR try to find the correct lens profile automatically, based on the available metadata from the image that you are processing. Around 2005 (e.g., Canon EOS 5D), Canon began embedding strings in their raw files to identify the lens used to shoot the image. So for Canon EOS models since ~2005 shot with Canon lenses, CR/LR will find the profile automatically (assuming we have a profile for the lens in question).

The 1D Mark III is an example of a camera that shipped after 2005, has the required metadata, and hence CR/LR is finding the profile automatically.

The 20D is an example of an older model (shipped prior to 2005), without the definitive metadata, and hence CR/LR is not picking the profile automatically. Basically, CR/LR only "knows" that you shot the image with a "70-200" lens, but there are many 70-200 lenses out there (some made by Canon, some made by third parties) and CR/LR cannot be sure which specific one you used. So, rather than guess and possibly (likely) get it wrong, CR/LR is conservative and refuses to pick the profile in these ambiguous cases. What you can do in these cases is pick the profile manually. You can also choose "Save New Lens Profile Defaults" from the Setup menu to ask CR/LR to "remember" your profile choice, so you don't have to keep picking the profile manually in the future.

Also: if you're building profiles yourself using the Lens Profile Creator ... the idea that your target has to be uniformly lit is often stated, but false. It is true that you need the lighting to be consistent from shot to shot within an image set, but it does not have to be uniform across the chart. In case you are wondering at the technical level how LPC can possibly build a vignette compensation routine from an unevenly lit chart -- remember that you are supplying multiple images for a given optical configuration to LPC (usually five to nine), so LPC can apply a sophisticated algorithm to reconstruct the realtive illumination function of the lens by studying all the images together (not just a single image).

Hope this helps.

Eric
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2010, 10:09:35 PM »
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Quote from: madmanchan
The 20D is an example of an older model (shipped prior to 2005), without the definitive metadata, and hence CR/LR is not picking the profile automatically. Basically, CR/LR only "knows" that you shot the image with a "70-200" lens, but there are many 70-200 lenses out there (some made by Canon, some made by third parties) and CR/LR cannot be sure which specific one you used. So, rather than guess and possibly (likely) get it wrong, CR/LR is conservative and refuses to pick the profile in these ambiguous cases. What you can do in these cases is pick the profile manually. You can also choose "Save New Lens Profile Defaults" from the Setup menu to ask CR/LR to "remember" your profile choice, so you don't have to keep picking the profile manually in the future.

Thanks for your input, Eric. Can you also bring some clarity to my concerns regarding sensor size for older cameras like the 20D?

Am I correct to understand that for some older cameras LR not only cannot read which specific lens was used but also which sensor size to compensate for? For these cameras a custom profile built using the same model camera would be required. As my examples above show, profiles built from cameras with different sensor sizes would be read AS-IS with no compensation applied— meaning too much distortion correction is applied to 1.6x crop sensor cameras when using a 1.3x or full frame camera-generated profile.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2010, 09:50:29 AM »
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Yes, CR & LR take into account the sensor size. So in the case of the 20D, they "know" that it has a 1.6x crop sensor and hence they will automatically limit use the correction data to about 14 mm image height (instead of ~22 mm for a full frame body like the 5D). For example a lens that vignettes a lot in the corners on a full frame body will vignette less on a 20D in the same corner, and this is accounted for.

Eric
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HickersonJasonC
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2010, 03:07:22 PM »
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Quote from: madmanchan
Yes, CR & LR take into account the sensor size. So in the case of the 20D, they "know" that it has a 1.6x crop sensor and hence they will automatically limit use the correction data to about 14 mm image height (instead of ~22 mm for a full frame body like the 5D). For example a lens that vignettes a lot in the corners on a full frame body will vignette less on a 20D in the same corner, and this is accounted for.

Eric

Eric, I understand the principle, but I'm not convinced that this is happening in reality (at least with my camera). Did you look at the images I posted in this thread? I believe they show very clearly that LR is not adjusting for vignetting correction on the 20D using the profiles now shipping with LR3. Problematic as there is not currently an option to manually specify camera in the lens correction dialog.

As for building my own profiles as Shewe and others have suggested, I'm not going to invest the time building profiles for a piece of software I have not yet decided to buy. I'm using the 30-day trail. The lens corrections feature is the ONLY reason I'm considering upgrading at this time and it seems that this feature is not quite ready for real work, at least for some users.
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