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Author Topic: Need Digital Medium Format Help!  (Read 7861 times)
AldoMurillo
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 01:32:16 PM »
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Eric, I just move couple months ago from Nikon to Hasselblad H4D-40.  I had the Nikon D3x for a brief time, but I sold it to make the purchase ( I kept a D700 for low light work ).

I also urge you to contact a dealer... Its the best way to clear your doubts. Don't make a purchase unless you do a test with both Phase One and Hasselblad.


I finally bougth a Hasselblad because:

- H4D True focus (It's specially helpful in shallow depth of field situations to correctly focus) it's amazing.
- Flash sync speed up to 1/800 on the entire lens lineup.  Before I made my decision I revised my Lightroom catalogs to see if I commonly use speeds above 1/800 (when I don't use strobes)...  just the 5% in my case, 15% on photo shoots on the beach... so that's something to analyze.
 - ISO 800 is quite usable,  specially when you scale down an image (Phase One sensor plus it's awesome too).
-  HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter for almos the entire lens lineup.   I don't have it right now, but I tried it with my dealer, it not only special for landscape (to make panos) or table top or macro,  I also gives you another way to be creative on portraits ( shifting the focus plane )
- Phocus: it's a great software, the lens corrections, the rendering of the color it's no way close to Lighroom + 35mm or Nikon files with Nikon capture.

* I have to tell you that in my experience Phocus its not a software for cataloging, it does the job, but if you are checking focus on your files 1 by 1 it will take you a lot of time.  

- H4D AF assistance, it has a diferent light, a light with lines to make contrast, I don't now how to explain that, but for what I notice, I works better than the Nikon AF assistance (In my opinion).
- Hasselblad promotion: $19,995 for the H4D-40 +  the 35-90mm... so you get the H4D-40 for $17,995 and a $7,000 lens for $2,000....

- The ergonomics just felt right in my hands.

- I was going to buy a H3d-31 or a H3d-39... but I wait to have all the $ to get the H4d-40 for the above reasons and because theres no trade-in options for the H3d-31(directly to hasselblad)... the H3d-39 has a really good value, but the H4d-40 will have more value in the future.



Some toughts on MFD:

- You'll need 2-3 stops more of light.
- You can hand-held the camera, but you'll need at least 2 stops more (Mirror shake is something you would need to fee,  Hasselblad has mirror delay option... and it works great, but it's not the solution) You'll need a monopod or tripod most of the times.
- If you like shallow DOF images, this is the way to go.  I have the 100mm f/2.2 and the shallow DOF its really amazing, you could emulate this with the canon 85mm f/1.2, but its not the same, theres something (Lack of AA filter plus size etc etc) about MFD that I love, the part of the image that is in focus is amazingly sharp (even if it is a 1 inch of DOF) and the out of focus transition is really pleasing to the eye.  In 35mm if you shot with the 85mm f/1.2 the part that is in focus would be kind of soft. In MFD this is not the case.
- Computer horsepower: You'll need a good computer, I have brand new iMac 27in, 2.66 GHz intel Core i5 with 12 GB of ram, 512 MB video... and it barely does the job. I'm planing to buy a Mac Pro.
- Dynamic Range, IN MY OPINION out of the camera the images have about 1-2 stops more dynamic range than a 35mm... BUT if you heavily tweek the files it will give you a lot more than a 35mm file (specially in the shadows)...  I would say another 1-2 stops more... and thats a LOT.    If you tend to expose to the highlights MFD is way superior to 35mm when recovering shadows.
- Bigger field of view an less distorsion: If you use a 50mm in MFD (if you have a full frame sensor) it would be something like 31mm in 35mm terms  BUT you will have the 50mm "optical view"  with less distorsion than the 31mm that you will need in 35mm to get the same field of view.  So this is special when you don't have space... so distorted heads or lines are less problematic with MFD when you don't have the space.
- Software: this is a huge plus for MFD...  both Phase one and hasselblad have an amazing tools specially designed to get every last drop o quality out of the files, it really makes a diference.  I think both need to expand the software to have cataloging options (for fast previewing, sorting, organizing etc etc).  I guess thats why Phase One recently acquired iView.    

Looking at your portfolio I would say that MFD will suit you very well.  Speed it's not an issue, you have controlled enviroments and models, you don't do fast action shoots, I guess you don't need high ISO... So it's a matter to look at the options....

Good luck!!!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 01:34:49 PM by AldoMurillo » Logged


Aldo Murillo

H4D-40, HCD 4-5.6/35-90, HC 2.2/100, HC 4/210
Nikon D700, 2.8/24-70, 2.8/70-200, 1.4/50, 2.8/60
BrendanStewart
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 02:33:04 PM »
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Aldo,

Thanks for that write up. Unfortunately/fortunately  i just purchased a H3dII-31 as that's all i can afford at the current time. The h4d-40 isn't to much more, but it's just enough more to not be justified by our budget. I mainly bought it for the sync speed and IQ. Phocus gets mixed reviews, but being new to MF, i figure it's best to have a closed system and get used to it all before going to some other system. I'm really looking forward to some of the positives you mentioned, thanks for the writeup.

I'm hoping that in a few years, they will take the h3dii-31 as a trade in for something really worthwhile. Here's to hoping.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:43:38 PM by BrendanStewart » Logged
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 03:49:59 PM »
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Quote from: BrendanStewart
Aldo,

Thanks for that write up. Unfortunately/fortunately  i just purchased a H3dII-31 as that's all i can afford at the current time. The h4d-40 isn't to much more, but it's just enough more to not be justified by our budget. I mainly bought it for the sync speed and IQ. Phocus gets mixed reviews, but being new to MF, i figure it's best to have a closed system and get used to it all before going to some other system. I'm really looking forward to some of the positives you mentioned, thanks for the writeup.

I'm hoping that in a few years, they will take the h3dii-31 as a trade in for something really worthwhile. Here's to hoping.



Maybe the body/lens auto focus makes the Hass attractive and a MUST for some shooters?
 I could never support or buy into a closed system.  Its like software, each tool does a great job in some area.  Why would I lock myself to it, and who is to tell me for my shooting needs that X system with X lens and X this that X software is going to be the best for my workflow, my subject of shooting?   Or better comparison...for me its like buying a camera with only 1 type of film...A few years back I almost bought into it....UNTIL you try it out, you wont know the differences.  Don't rule out SINAR, in fact it should be up there on your list....have not tried the software and cant give feedback, but look into the pros and cons for your shooting needs.

I also get a bad taste in my mouth from a company that locks the system...as if the chips are not good enough for them...thats why I am not much a Hass guy...But don't let that muddle your thoughts :-)
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2010, 04:01:26 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Maybe the body/lens auto focus makes the Hass attractive and a MUST for some shooters?
 I could never support or buy into a closed system.  Its like software, each tool does a great job in some area.  Why would I lock myself to it, and who is to tell me for my shooting needs that X system with X lens and X this that X software is going to be the best for my workflow, my subject of shooting?   Or better comparison...for me its like buying a camera with only 1 type of film...A few years back I almost bought into it....UNTIL you try it out, you wont know the differences.  Don't rule out SINAR, in fact it should be up there on your list....have not tried the software and cant give feedback, but look into the pros and cons for your shooting needs.

I also get a bad taste in my mouth from a company that locks the system...as if the chips are not good enough for them...thats why I am not much a Hass guy...But don't let that muddle your thoughts :-)


No worries. I'm steadfast in my choice. However i wish i had the budget for at least the 39 or the time to wait for one to enter the market at a decent price. The closed system can be a good or bad thing in my opinion. I did a lot of research before spending my moeny, and i came to the conclusion that as a working professional and not a hobbyist, i'm better off with the closed system and i like the idea that everything is integrated, one battery etc and from the time i take the photo from the time it hits photoshop it goes through one system.

I can totally understand why some people prefer to tinker. But for me, i just don't have time to mismatch parts and shims and batteries and all that. I just need a MF system which works. Phocus being native to the system helps as well. Granted, i haven't used Phocus yet, but we do have really fast machines, so i'm not expecting many issues.

Anyhow, i'm rambling. Different strokes for different folks.
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EricDosSantosPhotography
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2010, 04:37:19 PM »
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OK,
So I went to the store and felt the systems.  I felt that the hasselblad was more me.  The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system.  So I picked up a good deal on a h2 with 80mm 50-110 and a 150mm with leaf aptus 17 for 7K shipped over night.  I'm going to keep the leaf back as a backup or for shoots that don't need the resolution.  I am now deciding on whether or not I should get a p30+ back or get a h3dii 39 for around 13,000 and sell my h2 body.  Any one have any thoughts on which one to do?

Eric
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
OK,
So I went to the store and felt the systems.  I felt that the hasselblad was more me.  The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system.  So I picked up a good deal on a h2 with 80mm 50-110 and a 150mm with leaf aptus 17 for 7K shipped over night.  I'm going to keep the leaf back as a backup or for shoots that don't need the resolution.  I am now deciding on whether or not I should get a p30+ back or get a h3dii 39 for around 13,000 and sell my h2 body.  Any one have any thoughts on which one to do?

Eric


Very cool...thats right,  the H2 you can change backs on! Once you have a happy system you stop chasing the technology and forget details of ones you don't have fast :-)
...yes everybody has some needs over others...and I am glad you tried it out to decide.

Congratulations and welcome to the world of digital MF!
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 03:58:40 AM »
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You just bought and now want to upgrade ..... ?

Damn you're fast
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EricDosSantosPhotography
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 10:53:57 AM »
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Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq.  17 megapixels isn't enough in my opinion.  And considering my budget was around 12-14 and I only spent 7, I still have some room to upgrade.  Has anyone used the leaf aptus 17?  I tried to look up some reviews on it but couldn't find anything solid.  

Eric



Quote from: Frank Doorhof
You just bought and now want to upgrade ..... ?

Damn you're fast
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 11:13:13 AM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq.  17 megapixels isn't enough in my opinion.  And considering my budget was around 12-14 and I only spent 7, I still have some room to upgrade.  Has anyone used the leaf aptus 17?  I tried to look up some reviews on it but couldn't find anything solid.

Eric,

I've followed your adventure over the last week.

You've purchased two completely different systems in one week with little or no real world testing and in the case of the Aptus-17 without any research. We can really help you here, but so far you've only used us to get price quotes and ignored most or all of our advice.

I would suggest you return your latest quick-decision purchase and work with us (or anyone else) to rent or demo one or two of the systems you are considering in a real-world shooting situation, preferably in the presence of someone who knows the system through-and-through.

Don't get me wrong, the Aptus-17 on an H2 is a good system, and if it's the right system for you then great, but jumping into two purchases like this is not helping you acquire a system you can be confident is a good fit for your shooting style and your business needs.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:20:47 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2010, 11:16:53 AM »
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What Doug said.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 11:20:12 AM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
So I went to the store and felt the systems.  I felt that the hasselblad was more me.  The Mamiya system felt outdated and simply didn't feel as comfortable in my hands as the hasselblad system.

Which "Mamiya system" did you try?

The Mamiya AFD1? The Mamiya AFD2? The Mamiya AFD3? The Mamiya DF? The Phase One AF? The Phase One DF?

Which firmware version did it have installed?
Did it have the L-Bracket with the handstrap?
Did you try it with a focal plane lens or leaf shutter lens?

Was the Autofocus turned to Accuracy or Fast Mode?
Was the Autofocus set to the rear button or the shutter release?

Did you try it with and without a bip shutter release cap?

Are you aware of the incompatibility between the H2 and the H3 if you eventually go that route? Are you aware Hasselblad locks some of their lenses from working with the H2 body?

Was the firmware of the Hassy up to date so that included the neat feature of mirror delay?

Do you see why I keep suggesting you consult with one of the dealers which really focuses on these systems and to really thoroughly research your options before making a purchase decision?

How long did it take you to buy your last car?

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:22:02 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2010, 11:29:46 AM »
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+1 at doug

Also I really wonder what you are shooting for if 17 megapixels is not enough, we've done billboards with 8MP.
I really believe that for commercial work in 99% of the cases 22MP is the sweetspot and 17 is not far from that.
PLEASE don't only look at the numbers, just feel the image quality.

A friend of mine has the newest phone with I believe 10MP or so, compare that to a 20D and you will see what I mean, his shots looks like crap, a 4MP canon consumer camera is much better.

Also about outdated, I also wonder which camera you used.
I've shot with Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ67ProII, Mamiya 645AFD (the whole series), Leaf AFi etc. etc.

I loved the AFi, but I'm in love with the RZ67ProII (talk about outdated).
However when I compare the Phase One/Mamiya DF to the Hasselblad H2 with all due respect the Hasselblad feels very outdated.
The new H4D is great but I still like the way the Mamiya handles more (but that's personal).

The AFD/1 is not so nice in my opinion it's very slow in AF, hunts a lot and doesn't play nice with a lot of digital backs, but the AFD/III is a different story and the DF is just another step forward.

In the end it all boils down to personal taste but you can't develop that in a few minutes in a store.
Just borrow the combination or take doug up on his offer, I would jump to that to be honest.
It's a big investment and something you will keep for a LONG time, they way you're working now next year we will read you hate MF and are back to Nikon/Canon because that system is much better......

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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2010, 11:57:57 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I've shot with Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ67ProII, Mamiya 645AFD (the whole series), Leaf AFi etc. etc.

I loved the AFi, but I'm in love with the RZ67ProII (talk about outdated).

hi frank,
could you expand on that? i'd love to hear your thoughts on both systems.
i'm primarily interested in the comparison of when using the wlf, what's the view like, how bright are both and what's it like with the afi and going from horizontal to vertical. what else do you see in the afi wlf: speed, f-stop, iso, Huh
also, what about af and manual focus on the afi.
and the lenses, can you compare them to the rz lenses? weight, speed, contrast, look, etc.
what do you think about the controls on the afi, any trouble there? weight and balance? it much lighter than an rz isn't it?

and also, do you know anything about pricing, available lenses, etc.?

and have you used capture one with your leaf back? does it recognize the camera? does it tether?

also, where did you buy yours and what about the warranty and service concerning the afi body and the leaf backs? is it a leaf warranty? or is it phase one?

thanks for the info!
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kdphotography
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2010, 03:15:00 PM »
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I'm only guessing here, but I'm placing bets that the capital outlay for these "two used MFDB systems" combined is the same or quickly approaching the cost of one new Phase One P40+ or H4D40 MFDB system....  
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2010, 05:50:19 PM »
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Hi
I was the beta tester for the afi-2 system so it's been a while.
I already owned the rz at that time as my own camera so I could compare them and I did a lot.

Totally honest I loved the handling of the afi much more, the rotating sensor is great, I would not want the first versionnwhere you just change the sensor manually.
Af is reasonably quick although I did run into some problems with the 180 with distance go my model, but that's personal, with the close up ring it worked great.

I use a bright screen for my rz wlf so my screen is rather bright, compared to the original screen I had with the rz the afi seems much brighter, both mf and af was easy but for me the rz is also no problem.
The rz is mostly used on a studio stand the afi I used handheld without a problem.

Lens quality believe it or not but the glass of the rz is better from what I've seen, more sharpness and I liked the contrast more, but in all honestly the rz glass is extremely nice.

If the afi would have continued I would have loved to own one and I was for a while in the Market for one but I decided to keep the 645 afd3 and the rz.

I've also used capture one in the beta program and did not like it at first, but it has grown on me to a point that I absolutely love it now, especially the focus mask, for me I'm however using leaf capture because in this version you can't choose to store uncompressed leaf files but only compressed and aperture has problem with some of those files, and it's in my personal workflow a better decision at that time to use leaf capture which is slightly faster but lacks a lot of the features of capture one, I have given my opinion on the compressed issue and if that is changed I will probably change for the full 100% to capture one.


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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2010, 06:53:04 PM »
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Quote from: kdphotography
I'm only guessing here, but I'm placing bets that the capital outlay for these "two used MFDB systems" combined is the same or quickly approaching the cost of one new Phase One P40+ or H4D40 MFDB system....  

Maybe he can use them both for a trade-in; or he'll end up buying yet a third back.
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2010, 03:24:33 AM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
Well at only 17 megapixels I found it kind of "downgrading" from my D3X even though I'm sure it will have better dynamic range and iq.

Did you test that, or did you drop five figures on a hunch?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2010, 04:16:11 AM »
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Hi,

about one day. Found a used Toyota RAV 4 at a nice price point, had a test drive. Wrote the check. Cameras take longer...

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: dougpetersonci
How long did it take you to buy your last car?

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2010, 09:05:04 AM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

about one day. Found a used Toyota RAV 4 at a nice price point, had a test drive. Wrote the check. Cameras take longer...

Best regards
Erik

I think Toyota has some nice upgrade trade-in programs too.  You'll need a Toyota 4Runner now to haul around all your new MFDB systems!  
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2010, 10:01:00 PM »
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Quote from: kipling
hi frank,
could you expand on that? i'd love to hear your thoughts on both systems.
i'm primarily interested in the comparison of when using the wlf, what's the view like, how bright are both and what's it like with the afi and going from horizontal to vertical. what else do you see in the afi wlf: speed, f-stop, iso, Huh
also, what about af and manual focus on the afi.
and the lenses, can you compare them to the rz lenses? weight, speed, contrast, look, etc.
what do you think about the controls on the afi, any trouble there? weight and balance? it much lighter than an rz isn't it?

and also, do you know anything about pricing, available lenses, etc.?

and have you used capture one with your leaf back? does it recognize the camera? does it tether?

also, where did you buy yours and what about the warranty and service concerning the afi body and the leaf backs? is it a leaf warranty? or is it phase one?

thanks for the info!

With all due respect, getting into an AFI is not easy and not for the casual observer. +1 on Doug's suggestion of working closely with a dealer. MFDB are not easy to get into - there are lots of subtleties one needs to know and learn.WIth an MFDB, I'm getting the hang of getting results I love out of it - after about two months. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, regardless of whose back/camera/lens you use.

We all learn and then learn some more.
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