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Author Topic: Backups now done on quit - whose bright idea was that?  (Read 9964 times)
dreed
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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2010, 12:33:07 AM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
How do you know that is what killed them?

Because after a change was made to increase the time between spinups, the lifespan of the hard drives increased dramatically.
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bjanes
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« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2010, 08:06:43 AM »
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Quote from: dreed
What Jeff said does not contradict the above. Hard drives are not able to spin up and down an infinite number of times. They're simply not made for that kind of use - even hard drives for laptops. Spin up and down does increase the stress on the drive but at the same time, you've got to do it far more often than a few times a day for it to make a difference.

On the other side of the equation, many hard drives made for consumer systems are designed with an expected usage profile that does not involve them running 24x7.

Whilst I doubt anyone here would wear out a hard drive in a short span of time, I do know people that have because of the sleep-wakeup cycle they were using was just too short (less than a minute) over continued use (several months of 24x7 running.)
This neglects the fact that using power management may turn off the hard drive many times per day, depending on the settings. If you don't use power management and turn off the computer only at night, there is only one spin up cycle.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2010, 08:18:18 AM »
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Quote from: dreed
Because after a change was made to increase the time between spinups, the lifespan of the hard drives increased dramatically.

Same drive brand/series?
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dreed
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« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2010, 08:50:51 AM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
Same drive brand/series?

Does it matter? It seems like you don't want to believe this is actually a problem. In that case I'd recommend buying a hard drive and writing a test program to spin it up, randomly select a file to read and spin it down again once a minute, every minute of the day and leave it running 24x7 so that you can get back to us on how long it takes before the hard drive fails.

Whilst they're manufactured to predominately not fail during the expected duty cycle inside the warranty period, the above scenario is a long way outside of that expected duty cycle.
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Craig Arnold
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« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2010, 03:16:30 PM »
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I fully accept that most people would rather have the backup reminder at the end, and therefore that should be the default. But surely it would be trivial to have kept the old functionality as an option? To have not done it that was is simply ridiculous.

I always switch off my computer, simply because my home MacPro often doesn't get switched on for days at a time: I basically use it for photo processing, and not being a professional photographer I don't have cause to use it every day. Usually I carry on late into the night until I realise that I really need to get some sleep and want to turn the thing off and walk away. Not wait 5-10 minutes for the backup. On the other hand I always have 5 minutes to spare when I'm booting and going into LR. To get a cup of tea perhaps before I start working on my images.

For grain I am currently using DXO Filmpack, which is MUCH better. But maybe there is stuff that I cannot see how to do, or how to do well. Hence the desire for the tutorial.

The new import dialog certainly looks like it has far more functionality than the old, but after a simple upgrade stuff that it used to do fine it now no longer does. Hence the desire for the tutorial. [Edit: I used to use presets extensively, being a bit dim I prefer to set these things up and then leave them alone. Reduces user error. The old presets were still there after the upgrade. But they don't produce the same results, probably something I'm doing wrong. I'm not very bright. *sigh*]

As for the alleged performance enhancements, so far I haven't seen anything noticeable. But I'm no expert. Hence my desire for the tutorial.

As to the alleged image processing improvements, so far I haven't seen anything noticeable, but I haven't really had time to spend scouring my images for small gains. If some experts were to produce a tutorial then I would realise WHERE I should be looking, and perhaps which images might be likely to benefit from being revisited.

One thing that I was very curious about was the Web Output module, it has always seemed to be such a weak offering that I was surprised it was included at all in an otherwise excellent product. As far as I can see it has not been improved at all. It's still terrible. Perhaps all the engineering went into the other parts, and that's fine of course - just surprised that even in V3 it's so shocking.

I still love LR. Great product. Rather have LR than PS if I had to choose just one.

But everyone has been making such a big deal out of the V3 upgrade I was expecting to be wowed. Not so far, but I reckon that's probably because I haven't spent enough time trying to learn the new features. The help system is hopeless, and the simple lists of new features on the Adobe site have left me underwhelmed once I had actually bought the upgrade, though they sure did look enticing.

So... I'm keen on purchasing the new MR & JS tutorial. Even if Jeff does think I'm an idiot, I think he's very entertaining, and more importantly has a great deal of knowledge to impart and the LL tutorials present it in a very digestible format. Photography for me is just for fun. If it was a job I'd have to RTFM. :-)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 03:22:30 PM by Craig Arnold » Logged

Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2010, 04:14:38 PM »
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Quote from: RogerW
The new import is great, once you bother to learn how it works.  This is the best version of LR by far - and I've been using it since it was a beta, before publication.


I try and try learning this lame database/import etc on LR, but everytime I get stuck, I jump to C1 :-)  (I guess you can't learn on the fly of doing a job)

As long as C1 is not missing anything in Stricktly processing raw...then I have other tools for DAM, and PS5 works for all my Tiff-16bit edits.  This has been the case since I first got LR1, then 2, and now 3...... I have been burning money on LR since the first version.  

I use ACDSeePro3 which is super fast ..for Metadata, watermark, batch resize super print options even contact sheets, etc...ftp built in, email built in....burn built in...EVEN some cool Raw processing for a bit of fun....I really like it.
I feel like the ACDSEE cheerleader...but I rather have a program like it that manages, and a program that does RAW best, and CS5 that does edits/plugins for effects really well do its thing.  I guess the subject you work with has a lot to do with this. I find Landscapes easier to deal all in the RAW, but for fashion, product, commercial work, you are going to PS like it or not...MOST of the time.

So back to the backup at the end....Can't you pick start or end....or a schedule to backup? I too rarely turn my system OFF...so I am sure there is a way to turn it off and then manually start a backup.
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Schewe
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« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2010, 04:24:26 PM »
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Quote from: Craig Arnold
I fully accept that most people would rather have the backup reminder at the end, and therefore that should be the default. But surely it would be trivial to have kept the old functionality as an option? To have not done it that was is simply ridiculous.


See, that's where you are wrong...keeping the old behavior wasn't really an option because the code changes to go from backup upon launch to backup upon quit was so major. When people say, keep the old behavior and just add a preference don't understand the complexities of writing code. Having two separate behaviors isn't 2x the code complexities, it's prolly more like 4x or more. The additional QE and testing make it more complex. The bottom line was it was gonna be an either/or proposition. The camp of users who wanted the ability to backup all the work just done at the end of a session had a much stronger use case and therefore the decision was to get rid of the old function and write the new function. The users (and they were the majority) who wanted to backup at the end won. The apparently few people who still want to backup upon launch (which really was backwards from the start) lost...
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2010, 04:34:32 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
See, that's where you are wrong...keeping the old behavior wasn't really an option because the code changes to go from backup upon launch to backup upon quit was so major. When people say, keep the old behavior and just add a preference don't understand the complexities of writing code. Having two separate behaviors isn't 2x the code complexities, it's prolly more like 4x or more. The additional QE and testing make it more complex. The bottom line was it was gonna be an either/or proposition. The camp of users who wanted the ability to backup all the work just done at the end of a session had a much stronger use case and therefore the decision was to get rid of the old function and write the new function. The users (and they were the majority) who wanted to backup at the end won. The apparently few people who still want to backup upon launch (which really was backwards from the start) lost...


So are you saying Adobe is just cheap and doesn't want to write code with thought put into it?  And since it is the author on photo editing that mentallity trickles to this, and we should take it the way it is dished out to us?
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Schewe
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« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 04:41:19 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
So are you saying Adobe is just cheap and doesn't want to write code with thought put into it?  And since it is the author on photo editing that mentallity trickles to this, and we should take it the way it is dished out to us?


Yeah, that's right...they're cheap and incompetent. Can't understand why you even bother to use the product. Clearly it's way below your expectations. If I were you, I would get my money back. Keep using C1 if that makes you happy.

Do you understand how to write code? Do you understand what 4X the complexity means? Do you want to backup up AFTER doing a lot of work or when you launch? Really, since you seem to prefer C1, do you even have a dog in this hunt?
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Bradley Proctor
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« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 04:52:34 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
You should also be aware that turning off and turing on any electronics (particularly computers & hard drives) puts more stress on the electronic components than leaving them on and putting them in low power/sleep. Which is why the ONLY time I ever completely shut down my main systems is when I won't be around for multi days/weeks. I use my stuff professionally...anything I can do to keep my system optimal and good health I do.

That is just plain silly
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2010, 05:04:46 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Yeah, that's right...they're cheap and incompetent. Can't understand why you even bother to use the product. Clearly it's way below your expectations. If I were you, I would get my money back. Keep using C1 if that makes you happy.

Do you understand how to write code? Do you understand what 4X the complexity means? Do you want to backup up AFTER doing a lot of work or when you launch? Really, since you seem to prefer C1, do you even have a dog in this hunt?


 I use most of Adobe software offerings(creative suite) and have been using Adobe products for over 15 years. I have invested a great chunk of my support for their software.  I am a big fan of Adobe.  I have seen some critical slips lately. and they should be aware of it so they can clean up house.
They have gotten a lot more greedy and sloppy in the past 3 years than I have ever seen them.  The CS4 Cs5 upgrade launches with clear issues doesn't help.

C1 has its own issues...for me it is being slow to load the thumbnails and slow in focusing each image.  SO my dog is in the hut because I have purchased all 3 breeds of it, and still have issues putting it to use.

to answer your other question. I don't write code.  and I want to back up when I click something Like TOOLS_backups_At Start Up, At Close, or manual.  How hard is it to make backups of exisiting files?  Its some tar file that indexes what relationships it needs to associate with each job, and duplicate it and move it with extensions other than native, and be done.

My post was to only helps the original posters perspective to understand not to expect much of a change or improvment.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2010, 05:08:46 PM »
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Quote from: Bradley Proctor
That is just plain silly


Schewe would be right if you were using OLD hard drives...they used to have the heads park on the spindle, but now are magnetic and dont touch the surface.

So silly is harsh...its habit...One constant that doesn't change is heat...the less your system is exposed to it, the better...harddrives hate heat.
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MBehrens
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« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2010, 08:10:33 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
it's prolly more like 4x or more.
 backup upon launch (which really was backwards from the start) lost...

4x is a bit of a stretch Jeff, and yes I am a programmer. In the object oriented environment encapsulating the back up process and calling it from different point in the program would not be a huge issue. What is an issue and one that all software designers are concerned with is unnecessary complexity. Having a preference for when the backup will occur is unnecessary, for reasons I'll explain next.

Whether or not the backup is completed at the end or the beginning of a session is immaterial. Either way the backup is occurring between sessions and anyone that expresses a preference is stating their opinion rather than fact or any preferred logical process. With the Before process it is backed up before the catalog was opened by LR, with the After process it is backed up after the catalog is closed, so the end result is the same...   session | backup | session | backup | session | backup etc...

I do agree that there is a emotional aspect to before or after. IMO, Before is "I want to protect myself during this session and know I have a catalog backup." After is "Whew, I made it through this session I better get a backup while the getting is good."  Yes, I'm a fan of the Before process, mainly because I don't consider the LR backup to be anything other that a convenience item, rather than a true backup policy and regimen. Anyone who has adopted this as their backup policy will experience disaster at some point in time.

And all of this arguing is ridiculous if you are doing backups with any setting other than "Every time Lightroom exits." Any other setting is going to contain multiple sessions and it's completely immaterial if it occurs before or after the 10th or 20th session. If its not in this one it will be in the next.

I won't even touch the power down / sleep / hibernate issue. Again a complete non-issue fraught with opinions.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 08:12:33 PM by MBehrens » Logged
Schewe
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« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2010, 09:39:16 PM »
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Quote from: MBehrens
4x is a bit of a stretch Jeff, and yes I am a programmer. In the object oriented environment encapsulating the back up process and calling it from different point in the program would not be a huge issue. What is an issue and one that all software designers are concerned with is unnecessary complexity. Having a preference for when the backup will occur is unnecessary, for reasons I'll explain next.

Ever code in Lua? Not sure just how "object oriented" Lightroom is...I do know that the "state of the Lightroom Database" is critical when cuing up a database backup. Lightroom could be absolutely assured that upon launch, the database was then currently in a state of "nothing else going on"...and it's really, REALLY critical that the actual backup is NOT taking place while a critical background process might possibly be going on while a backup is taking place.

So, users decide backing up on launch is contra to the workflow of making sure you save work after doing it (well. DOH) complain. So Lightroom engineers spend the time and effort to make sure they code a SAFE BACKUP ON QUIT where they have to code explicit function to make sure all background processes have completed BEFORE the actual backup process.

When I said 4x the complexity, I was not kidding (nor pulling a number out of my ass). There was discussion amongst the engineers and alpha testers such as Seth Resnick who might spend 8-10 hours keywording thousands of images, who made a really good case that it made MORE sense to back up new work AFTER you do it, not before. Yes, I fell in that camp because I thought it was friggin' goofy to backup BEFORE you work.

So, keeping the old behavior wasn't an option...what would YOU do? Based on 80/20, the Lightroom engineers made the best decision possible. If you don't like it, don't use Lightroom. That's the bottom line.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 09:41:18 PM by Schewe » Logged
John.Murray
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« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2010, 11:54:24 PM »
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Of course you *could* start Lightroom, then immediately quit / backup, then relaunch.  That's what the rest of us basically did after a long editing session  . . .
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Schewe
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« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2010, 12:05:47 AM »
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Quote from: Joh.Murray
Of course you *could* start Lightroom, then immediately quit / backup, then relaunch.  That's what the rest of us basically did after a long editing session  . . .


Sure...but from the standpoint of software designers (who really DO try to arrive at elegant solutions) that's less good that committing the resources and engineering time to properly code a safe backup upon quit. Really, this is something that was very high on the Lightroom forums...

About all I can say is: careful what you wish for, you may get it (and not like the results).

So, bottom line? Lightroom does backups on quite instead of launch...deal with it.
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semillerimages
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« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2010, 01:03:02 AM »
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I sure hope Adobe doesn't pay you to be their spokesperson, because if they do they must not read all the demeaning, arrogant, brash, and downright jerky comments you make all the time.

You may be an expert, a very good photographer, and *maybe* a good teacher but your social skills just plain suck.

*steve


Quote from: Schewe
Sure...but from the standpoint of software designers (who really DO try to arrive at elegant solutions) that's less good that committing the resources and engineering time to properly code a safe backup upon quit. Really, this is something that was very high on the Lightroom forums...

About all I can say is: careful what you wish for, you may get it (and not like the results).

So, bottom line? Lightroom does backups on quite instead of launch...deal with it.
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Schewe
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« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2010, 01:10:19 AM »
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Quote from: semillerimages
I sure hope Adobe doesn't pay you to be their spokesperson, because if they do they must not read all the demeaning, arrogant, brash, and downright jerky comments you make all the time.

Uh no...I don't work for Adobe (which if you had half a clue about the industry you would already know).

And my comments are what they are...if you find them demeaning, I would suggest maybe you need an ego boost (which the odds of me giving you are pretty friggin' slight). And regarding my "social skills"? Guess what, I don't care, do you? Really? Heck, it makes for interesting discourse (unless you happen you be a shrinking rose).

You a rose, bud?

(actually, that's a joke, bud...)
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semillerimages
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« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2010, 01:19:53 AM »
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I do have a clue, but you obviously don't. It's too bad because with a positive attitude and a friendly way of doling out information people might actually respect you. If you had half a clue about how most respectful people treated each other you would know that.

(that's not a joke, bud...)

Quote from: Schewe
Uh no...I don't work for Adobe (which if you had half a clue about the industry you would already know).

And my comments are what they are...if you find them demeaning, I would suggest maybe you need an ego boost (which the odds of me giving you are pretty friggin' slight). And regarding my "social skills"? Guess what, I don't care, do you? Really? Heck, it makes for interesting discourse (unless you happen you be a shrinking rose).

You a rose, bud?

(actually, that's a joke, bud...)
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Schewe
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« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2010, 01:28:16 AM »
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Quote from: semillerimages
I do have a clue...

No, actually, I think you THINK you do, but I'm afraid you really don't...

What you DON'T understand is that I don't care about (and sincerely don't crave), respect...my attitude is actually positive (in a warped sort of perspective) and I really don't (really, REALLY don't) care what you think...what I do care about is moving forward, making progress and advancing the industry. If that means pissing off a few delicate people, so be it. Seems a fair deal to me...

:~)
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