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Author Topic: Mamiya 645 AFD ii with leaf shutter lenses?  (Read 8886 times)
EricDosSantosPhotography
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« on: July 12, 2010, 12:00:54 AM »
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This is probably a newbie question, but one of the main reasons I'm getting into medium format is because I have heard that they can sync to 1/800 of a second.  I know that hasselblad can do this and so can the Mamiya 645DF and Phase One DF.  But if I have a 645 AFD i or ii can I buy shutter leaf lenses and have it still sync at 1/800 of a second?  By the way I would be using this with a p30+ back.  Also if you guys have recommendations between the hassy and the mamiya/ phase bodies that would be awesome!


Thank You,
Eric
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 02:20:29 AM »
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Hi,
Also in retrospec to your other post.
Before switching to MF try and rent a body/back, you've been shooting for 11months you mentioned in the other thread, remember that a MF camera is something else than a DSLR, it's a different approach.

I for one am without a doubt convinced it's better than the DSLR on some occasions but not on all, I still use both.
Don't buy one for the wrong reasons.

The 1/800 sync speed is only handy when shooting strobes outside and you want to fight the sun.
If you're doing studio work it's of no use.

Also when choosing the back I would opt for a Leaf Aptus with the smaller crops like the AptusII5 or AptusII7 or get a second hand Aptus22, still one of the best backs around.

Camerawise, the Mamiya AFD/II or AFD/III and with more budget the Phase One DF would be good choices, operation wise they are very close to a DSLR.

Don't think I'm talking you out of buying a MF camera but I'm just telling you to first try before you buy, I switched and I love it but I'm shooting some years and I've students of mine loving the viewfinder and the feel of the MF camera but they only produce unsharp photos because of the different AF, mirrorslap etc.

Choosing a better camera doesn't make you a better photographer.
Choosing a better camera can make you a better photographer, if you know how to utilize the difference.

Hope this helps.
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EricDosSantosPhotography
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 02:30:54 AM »
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That definately helps.  I want the 1/800 because I do a lot of motion shots and cane use any help I can get.  It will help cut down on the ambient light the sensor is seeing when trying to stop motion outdoors.  You are the first person that has recommended the leaf backs.  So far everyone has been all about the phase one backs and I have been pretty set on getting a p30+.  I got a trade offer for a mamiya af22 with the new aptus ii 5.  I was seriously considering taking it with the exception of the fact that it doesn't have the sync speed I'm looking for.  I would like it atleast as an option.

Eric
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yaya
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 02:44:23 AM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
That definately helps.  I want the 1/800 because I do a lot of motion shots and cane use any help I can get.  It will help cut down on the ambient light the sensor is seeing when trying to stop motion outdoors.  You are the first person that has recommended the leaf backs.  So far everyone has been all about the phase one backs and I have been pretty set on getting a p30+.  I got a trade offer for a mamiya af22 with the new aptus ii 5.  I was seriously considering taking it with the exception of the fact that it doesn't have the sync speed I'm looking for.  I would like it atleast as an option.

Eric

For 1/800 you need a 645DF body (Phase One or Mamiya) and a leaf shutter lens. With all the new leaf Aptus-II backs you'll get 1/1,600 on that body+lens combo.

Yair
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EricDosSantosPhotography
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 03:58:29 AM »
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I know, I want either the 645DF or a hassy body.  I have not decided which yet.  But unless someone can tell me why a leaf back as opposed to a phase one, I am going to stick with the p30+ that I had originally wanted.  I understand why you support leaf frank.  I viewed their website and saw you talking about it .  Does anyone have some information on why the mamiya would be better vs. a hasselblad h1 or h2?  I'm going tuesday to go try them both to see which feels better, but would like to know from a technical standpoint.

Thank You,
Eric



Quote from: yaya
For 1/800 you need a 645DF body (Phase One or Mamiya) and a leaf shutter lens. With all the new leaf Aptus-II backs you'll get 1/1,600 on that body+lens combo.

Yair


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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 04:14:30 AM »
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Before you get the wrong impression, I only joined Leaf AFTER I bought a Leaf Aptus.

I was in the same situation as you, what to buy the Phase one, Leaf or Hasselblad.

For me Hasselblad was choice number one BUT I did not do it because I don't find the closed system to be all that attractive.
I also sometimes love to shoot film, and the lens prices for Hasselblad are much higher than the Mamiya lenses while in reality the quality is equal or very close.

So it was between Phase one and Leaf.
Phase one is great for long exposures but I find the skintones on the Leaf to be better.
In the end I started asking around and found that the Leaf team was much quicker with their answers than the Phase one persons I asked.
But in the end both agreed that for Fashion/Beauty and my style the Leaf would be the best choice.

I've shot with Phase One, Leaf and Hasselblad in the mean time and never found I made the wrong choice.
The P65+ is wonderful but overal I just love the Dalsa look and in the lower segment you get that with the Aptus22 or AptusII5.

Again I would really get the biggest sensor, the Aptus22 is  48 x 36 mm and the P30+ is smaller, this is for me a big thing for model/portrait work.

But also remember that the high ISO performance of the P30+  would be better than the Leaf series. (but it has microlenses)
BUT the Leaf can go down to ISO25 (AptusII5 and Aptus22) which is really nice if you want to shoot outside with strobes and still get a nice DOF.

So before jumping to a conclusion that I would be in the Leaf camp and therefor advise Leaf please consider above.
I do love Leaf and yes I promote them where ever I go, but I'm not paid by them (I wish ) I'm just very happy with the choice I made and that was a choice that I did A LOT of research for (longer than 6 months to be honest )
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rolleiflexpages
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 05:14:18 AM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
This is probably a newbie question, but one of the main reasons I'm getting into medium format is because I have heard that they can sync to 1/800 of a second.  I know that hasselblad can do this and so can the Mamiya 645DF and Phase One DF.

Hi Eric,
Schneider PQS lenses for Rolleiflex/Sinar Hy6 offer 1/1000 of a second :-)

Pascal
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marat
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2010, 09:30:39 AM »
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Hi Eric,

I just stumbled upon this thread, and not sure if you made your purchase yet. I am a digital tech trainer in Toronto, and we also are one of the five largest photo equipment rental providers in Toronto, having many different medium format digital backs, with and without digital techs. We often rent to pros that are looking to buy and want to test drive. We also do equipment consulting and training.

Many good points have been brought up in this thread on which digital back brand to buy. We have extensively researched and purchased 8 Phase One backs, 2 Hasselblad backs, and a Leaf back, along with full systems of Hasselblad H, V, Mamiya AFD, Fuji GX680, and Betterlight / Sinar. We have tested and compared all three to each other, and are still continuing more testing when we have time. Please post whether you are still interested in more info, and I can jot down some notes on the key "real" differences between them.

Best,

Mir Lada
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
But if I have a 645 AFD i or ii can I buy shutter leaf lenses and have it still sync at 1/800 of a second?  By the way I would be using this with a p30+ back.


Thank You,
Eric

since your question was if a 645 afd II or III will work with the leaf shutter lenses,
the guys from phase or mamiya would probably say 'yes for sure!'
the only problem is your sync will be 1/125  
it has been promised over and over that this combination will work one day (at least with the afd III)
but seems we are supposed to dump our camera and get the flashy new df if we need some faster sync speed.
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MattBeardsley
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 05:43:20 PM »
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Hey guys.  I happen to have e-mailed with a Mamiya rep last week about the Leaf Shutter lenses and the older bodies.  Mamiya has said they plan a firmware update that will allow the 645 AFDIII to be compatible with the new LS lenses.  The rep said they haven't yet released the update and have no timeframe to announce.  For now, it's a not insignificant advantage for Hasselblad.  Their whole H line is all lens shutters...  oh well!
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paul_jones
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2010, 09:23:03 PM »
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Quote from: EricDosSantosPhotography
I know, I want either the 645DF or a hassy body.  I have not decided which yet.  But unless someone can tell me why a leaf back as opposed to a phase one, I am going to stick with the p30+ that I had originally wanted.  I understand why you support leaf frank.  I viewed their website and saw you talking about it .  Does anyone have some information on why the mamiya would be better vs. a hasselblad h1 or h2?  I'm going tuesday to go try them both to see which feels better, but would like to know from a technical standpoint.

Thank You,
Eric

i have shot with a earlier mamiya/phase, contax/phase, and owned both leaf and phase on an h1(updated to h2).
if you want leaf shutter only, i think the h1 is a nice camera. they are everywhere, relatively cheap, and the finders are large and bright. the hassy is slightly buggy, but hasnt caused anymore disruption than having to turn the camera on and off- and thats only every odd shoot, so not a big deal.
i like the grip of the h1. and i use the waist level finder a lot.(cant do that with the mamiya)
the lenses dont have a very nice blur, if you style has blur. the contax has the nicest blur- not sure about the mamiya (except the old 1.9 80mm  manual lens is really nice, and the fit on to the afd).

but the mamiya gives you the ability for leaf shutter lenses and focal plane shutter. this would be of even more use if mamiya actually sold a fast lens, but they dont (2.8 is the fastest, except the really old manual lens mentioned above).

imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.

i get told by the phase people that the mamiya/phase camera has improved since i used them, but they look just as bad, i cant see how they have changed. they still have no removable finder, which means a bad back if you are shooting low for a few days in a row.

paul
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wolfbellw.
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2010, 04:29:12 AM »
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Quote from: MattBeardsley
... Mamiya has said they plan a firmware update that will allow the 645 AFDIII to be compatible with the new LS lenses.  The rep said they haven't yet released the update and have no timeframe to announce.  For now, it's a not insignificant advantage for Hasselblad.  Their whole H line is all lens shutters...  oh well!


the rumour of a firmware update has been around for at least 18 months.
about a year ago i was told by a mamiya technican that its actually a hardware problem.
if i remember right, an electric contact is missing on the old af's so no way to solve the problem according to the technican.
and anyway there is no big interest by the manufacturer to help their customers even though they made a lot of promises -  they want us to buy the new df (that is supposed to be so much better than the afd III) and sooner or later the even more brilliant df II that - even though it will be still last centuries technology - is supposed to be even greater than the df and definitely will have no shutter lag anymore  
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ziocan
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2010, 07:04:58 AM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.
Maybe not.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2010, 09:21:20 AM »
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Quote from: paul_jones
but the mamiya gives you the ability for leaf shutter lenses and focal plane shutter. this would be of even more use if mamiya actually sold a fast lens, but they dont (2.8 is the fastest, except the really old manual lens mentioned above).

imo though, i think the mamiya is a horrible plasticy crappy feeling camera to use. the hassy isnt at all perfect, but its worlds ahead in handling.

i get told by the phase people that the mamiya/phase camera has improved since i used them, but they look just as bad, i cant see how they have changed. they still have no removable finder, which means a bad back if you are shooting low for a few days in a row.

paul

Quote from: ziocan
Maybe not.


It's true that Hasselblad has (1) lens that is faster than 2.8 (the HC100/2.2 vs 110/2.Cool, but many of their lenses are still faster than Hasselblad lenses (35/2.8>HC35/3.5, 45/2.8 & 55/2.8>HC50/3.5, 150/2.8>150/3.2).

Indeed, none of these cameras are perfect, but the new DF camera (Mamiya or Phase One, either way) is not a horrible plasticky crappy feeling camera. It has improved significantly. Generational improvements from AFD>AFDII>AFDIII were very modest IMO, but AFDIII>DF was a significant improvement. While the shutter lag and auto focus improvements have been mentioned the most, I feel the actual fit/finish/form, which affects handling, is just as significant.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/06/...-one-df-camera/

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/02/...s-would-happen/

I find the feel of the DF camera very pleasing now. Considering what Phase One had to work with, I think it was quite an achievement to improve the product so dramatically. I have had Hasselblad H camera users try it out and express a preference for the feel and handling of the DF camera. I find the two cameras (DF and H) very equivalent now, and choice more a matter of feature preferences, rather than handling.  


Steve Hendrix


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ondebanks
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2010, 09:55:15 AM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix

I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.

Ray

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kdphotography
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2010, 10:38:36 AM »
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Quote from: ondebanks
I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.

Ray

Ray, it is true that on paper you might have to look close to see cosmetic differences in the move from the Phase 645AF to the Phase DF, but as an actual user I can tell you that the quality of build improvement is definitely there.  My use with 645 series started with the Mamiya 645AF, to the 645AFD, then the Phase 645AF and finally Phase 645DF.  Each generation marked only incremental performance improvements, but not for the DF.  I was actually very happy with the Phase AF, and placed my name on the wait-list for the new DF when it was announced.  I patiently waited and told Dave Gallagher that I was fine waiting as I thought the Phase 645AF was working just dandy.  Then Dave came out for the 2d Capture Integration in Carmel - Pigs in a Blanket in February this year.  Dave brought out the new Phase 645DF which I tried.  The improvements were so dramatic in terms of performance over the 645AF, that my previous patience and satisfaction with my 645AF quickly waned and became one of "Dave, I want my 645DF, and I want it now."    

I do agree with you with some minor sadness of losing the ability to use a filmback with the 645DF, but in all reality, I have difficulty remembering the last time I shot with film.

ken
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2010, 10:47:00 AM »
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Quote from: ondebanks
I dunno, Steve. You still have to look extraordinarily closely to see differences between the PhaseOne AF and DF. I know that internally the autofocus etc. is supposed to be much improved. But externally, it's just as "minor incremental" as the AFD-II-III transitions. There is no "wow! big change" factor to it. For example, removable finders - now that would have been a big change in the right direction! In fact, I think that dropping support for film backs was a change in the wrong direction. Even if it rarely gets used, it removes one of the versatility attractions of MF SLRs over their smaller format brethren. All this talk from Phase One about "open systems" - I can't take it seriously when they actually closed off their camera system to film use.

Ray


I agree Ray, it's unfortunate about not being able to use film. Neither does the H3DII/H4D, for that matter. I'm certain there was a lot of debate over it and I am sure it centered over the likelihood that keeping film compatibility would restrict other aspects. I won't say this as fact, but I have been told, in so many terms, this was the case.

Also, 100%, would love a waist level finder. To me, the viewfinder is the element I would like to see the most change with on the Phase One camera.

However, my "Ah, yes" moment, which is not quite the same as "wow!" (It takes a lot for me to enthusiastically say "wow" to a product) was written with regard to the overall improvements, not only focused on the external changes. So, I stand by my blog statement of the DF being an "Ah, yes", rather than a "well, it's a little bit better". And this is my personal user opinion, not just a sales opinion. If you take a camera and upgrade the auto focus performance to the point where - for me - it is largely unusable in the way I photograph, to a state where it is very usable, that is not incremental.

And handling to many photographers is a key component to capturing an image. The AFD-II-III cameras have always had a low reputation for fit/finish/handling. To me, in my opinion, the DF was a significant improvement. In a subtle yet important way, it felt like a different camera to me. As you say, a waist level finder would indeed be a dramatic change and worthy of a "wow, they did it" reaction, perhaps. And viewfinders are certainly one of the most important elements of a camera, absolutely. If they had added a waist level finder capability to the DF, in addition to the improved fit/finish/handling, I may very well have been forced to elicit a "Wow!".  

But I think my wording and description is accurate and appropriate. Our clients who used AFD-II-III that have upgraded to DF are more effusive and enthusiastic than I am, the guy who is selling it to them. I think that is relevant. I believe the improved grip/handling (and overall improvements) is definitely a bigger jump than in past upgrades. Last week one of our consistent rental clients came in and tested the DF. He typically rents P45+/P65+ on H1/H2 cameras from us. In his words, he now prefers the feel and handling of the DF to the H camera and said, "Just get a few more Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses in there and I'll switch." None of my clients ever said that to me about the AFD-II-III series.


Steve Hendrix
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yaya
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2010, 12:29:46 PM »
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Some of you will find this article relevant/ useful
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2010, 12:35:39 PM »
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Quote from: yaya
Some of you will find this article relevant/ useful


Yair,

I think you need to send them a better 800 iso shot.  If they think that crop looks good well, I gotta wonder if they cleaned their screen.

BC
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yaya
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2010, 01:04:57 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Yair,

I think you need to send them a better 800 iso shot.  If they think that crop looks good well, I gotta wonder if they cleaned their screen.

BC

The print looks very good  
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