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Author Topic: Canon x300 Media Configuration Tool  (Read 15589 times)
JeffKohn
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« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2010, 11:48:12 PM »
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OK, now I understand what you did, it's just a little different than what I thought Scott to be suggesting.

Taking a look at the Colorburst for Windows demo has me even more confused about the rest of the process though, because the commands and tabs you two were discussing the other day don't seem to be present in the application I'm looking at, unless I'm missing something obvious.

I thought this might be more efficient than my "create a profile for each ink setting" approach, but at this point I'm not so sure. I want to get this profile created, so I think I'll stick with my previous approach for now and revisit the CB approach when I have more time.
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routlaw
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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2010, 11:20:16 AM »
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Thanks Scott for this info, which I have to say is an issue and situation I have not heard of before. However in looking through the myriad amount of info on the canon wiki page I did come across a note by Eric Chan describing how one could reconfigure the settings in iOne Match to use different profiling methods apparently as you describe below. Unfortunately for the life of me I could not find the configuration folder/file anywhere within the iOne Match software in order to add the other two profiling methods he described, perhaps I just missed it.

So if I understand your statements below, you discuss this issue using the Perceptual Rendering Intent, but does this still occur if one is using Relative Rendering with BPC checked? Or are we talking about something entirely different here?

Thanks again,

Rob

The x300 inkset yellows are unsurpassed - that's likely an issue with how the ICC profile handles "edge gamut" colors with the perceptual intent, and not an issue with the color gamut itself. A saturation maximizing approach to perceptual rendering will sacrifice image detail for color saturation near the edges of the color gamut. EyeOne Match and the LOGO Colorful option in ProfileMakerPro both take this approach. Monaco Profiler and the upcoming i1Profiler have, IMO, superior edge gamut handling that allows for excellent edge gamut color saturation without loosing image detail.

So I'd recommend getting some Monaco Profiler profiles made for your 8300 so you can get the most out of the "edge gamut" colors you're talking about. With them the results should blow you away, especially on a fiber base paper.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2010, 12:14:21 PM »
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So if I understand your statements below, you discuss this issue using the Perceptual Rendering Intent, but does this still occur if one is using Relative Rendering with BPC checked? Or are we talking about something entirely different here?
The options Scott discussed do not apply to rel-col, only perceptual intent.

As for changing the option with i1Match, on Windows the file you want to edit is "C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\i1\Eye-One Match 3\Config" (adjust installation folder as appropriate for your system).

If you're on Mac I can't help you there.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2010, 06:03:31 PM »
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Unfortunately for the life of me I could not find the configuration folder/file anywhere within the iOne Match software in order to add the other two profiling methods he described, perhaps I just missed it.

Hi Rob,

This should help:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/i1GamutMapping/index.html
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2010, 02:17:06 PM »
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I installed the Colorburst Demo, can I get some clarification on which linearization target you're supposed to print from the MCT? It seems all the Colorburst targets are CMYK, and MCT doesn't like that. Do I need to convert one of these to RGB? If so does the color space matter?

Yes, You've got to convert to RGB and the color space you choose can have a huge effect on the process. I'd convert to sRGB. Yes, this step is less than ideal and is potentially the achilles heal of the process. To really determine the optimal ink limits for a RGB driver we should be printing out RGB+ wedges and measuring them with a tool similar to ColorBurst's. I've poked a few people about developing such a tool but no bites yet. Anyone reading this interested in making a RGB density and chroma graphing tool? (device support is such a pain, I know...)

Quote from: JeffKohn
I thought this might be more efficient than my "create a profile for each ink setting" approach, but at this point I'm not so sure. I want to get this profile created, so I think I'll stick with my previous approach for now and revisit the CB approach when I have more time.

Fair enough. If you're not used to ColorBurst it's pretty crazy. Too much learning curve for most. If you can use a small patch count target, like the 25 or 50, then making profiles is a pretty good way to go. Hello Munki and upcoming i1Profiler.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2010, 02:22:32 PM »
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Thanks Scott for this info, which I have to say is an issue and situation I have not heard of before. However in looking through the myriad amount of info on the canon wiki page I did come across a note by Eric Chan describing how one could reconfigure the settings in iOne Match to use different profiling methods apparently as you describe below.
Just to clarify, If you mess with the perceptual rendering option in EyeOneMatch (or any other profiling app) it will only effect the results when prints are made with the Perceptual intent. The other intents in the profile will behave the same.

So if I understand your statements below, you discuss this issue using the Perceptual Rendering Intent, but does this still occur if one is using Relative Rendering with BPC checked? Or are we talking about something entirely different here?
The way those edge gamut colors are handled is entirely different with different intents. Am I correct in assuming that you are printing for fine art purposes? Are you currently seeing the described results with Perceptual? Are the profiles for the two printers made with the same software? Lots of variables to nail down...
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routlaw
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« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2010, 03:49:40 PM »
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Understood, that is what I figured just wanted to double check.

And yes I print not only for artist reproductions but also fine art photographs. With my 9600 printer I seldom used the perceptual rendering intent but used relative + bpc most of the time. iOne Match 3.6.3 has been used for both printers.

Rob

Just to clarify, If you mess with the perceptual rendering option in EyeOneMatch (or any other profiling app) it will only effect the results when prints are made with the Perceptual intent. The other intents in the profile will behave the same.
The way those edge gamut colors are handled is entirely different with different intents. Am I correct in assuming that you are printing for fine art purposes? Are you currently seeing the described results with Perceptual? Are the profiles for the two printers made with the same software? Lots of variables to nail down...
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Mulis Pictus
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« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2010, 04:49:25 PM »
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I've poked a few people about developing such a tool but no bites yet. Anyone reading this interested in making a RGB density and chroma graphing tool? (device support is such a pain, I know...)
IIRC, ArgyllCMS's printcal can do that already.

I have tool for creating grayscale profiles, which displays L* values graph from grayscale targets. I plan to extend it to show the results of linearization targets too. I am not sure when I will get some time to work on it though, as I am swamped with other work. Argyll's printcal might already be able to do that anyway.

Cheers,
Mulis
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2010, 05:18:15 PM »
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IIRC, ArgyllCMS's printcal can do that already.
Have you used it strictly for determining the optimal media setting? I'm not aware of an ability to graph out chroma values for this purpose. It's my (limited) understanding that printcal is for linearizing - not particularly for analyzing the chroma values for determining a optimal driver based media setting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Mulis Pictus
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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2010, 02:04:41 AM »
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Have you used it strictly for determining the optimal media setting?

Not yet. I used it for linearization and remembered that it plots graphs during it, which I think is what you are looking for.

I'm not aware of an ability to graph out chroma values for this purpose. It's my (limited) understanding that printcal is for linearizing - not particularly for analyzing the chroma values for determining a optimal driver based media setting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I looked at it and here are graphs I get during linearisation, they are Absolute DE, Relative DE and Calibration Curve plots. If I understand it correctly, the DE graphs are CIE Delta 94 to media white, so they can be used to determine whether color channels we are looking at are monotonic or not.

Cheers
Radek
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2010, 08:28:43 AM »
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I am preparing to profile Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. I asked tech support at Ilford for their recommendation on Standard Paper choice when using the x300 MCT and got the following reply:

Quote
We have not yet done these recommendations, they are planned. The choice must be something like
Media type: Instant Dry Photo Paper Satin
Print Quality: High
Colour: Defaults.

Not much to go on. Checking the recommendation for this paper at the Canon wiki page, I found "Special 5" was recommended for GFS on the iPF5100/6100 by Lou Dina. Considering Hahnemühle recommends Special 5 for their Photo Rag Baryta, I reckon the setting might have merit for GFS given the similarities between the two papers.

I'm figuring I'll have a go with the "Assist" recommendation based on paper weight (possibly HW Gloss Photo?) and/or use Special 5, and I'll run test targets at Medium-low, Standard, and Medium-high ink volumes based on previous work with glossy papers, but I'd appreciate anyone's feedback on alternative recommendations.

Thanks,

Greg
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »
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Hey Radek, these appear to be density curves, not the chroma curves we're seeking.

The maximum density usually isn't necessarily the optimal one. When we compare ink densities next to chroma values you'll find that they increase together up to a certain point at which the chroma will start to fall as the density continues to increase. This chroma plateau usually occurs pretty close to maximum density but the difference is important. The base of the chroma plateau represents the optimal ink limiting and is helps determine which media setting is optimal. So the moral of the story isL don't go for the maximum density without bleeding - go for the density that maximizes chroma *instead* of density! A better tool for that would be nice. We need to do the colorimetricly, not subjectively with our eyes.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2010, 09:52:12 AM »
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I've poked a few people about developing such a tool but no bites yet. Anyone reading this interested in making a RGB density and chroma graphing tool? (device support is such a pain, I know...)

Scott, if you use a utility like ColorPort to generate a chart and save the data in LCH format... is the 'C' component of that the chroma that ColorBurst is tracking? If so it ought to be fairly straightforward to graph that data in a spreadsheet. I just did a quick test actually using the L*a*b* data that SpectralVision recorded. Using the equation:

sqrt( a^2 + b^2 )

I extracted the chroma from the L*a*b* data. It matched the numbers being displayed in the screen shots that I took (of the ColorBurst chroma graphs) for cyan, magenta, and yellow. Now... what I'm not sure about is black. Black seems to be some kind of special case. I should have gotten 77.1 for my blackest black (cue Spinal Tap) with the test case I was using but I umm... got... well... 3.02655.

Cheers, Joe
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2010, 09:58:22 AM »
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Scott, if you use a utility like ColorPort to generate a chart and save the data in LCH format... is the 'C' component of that the chroma that ColorBurst is tracking? If so it ought to be fairly straightforward to graph that data in a spreadsheet.
Good thought Joe! 've been a daily ColorPort user for many years now and love it (but want to see it updated!). Want to get to work making a simple app that we can drag and drop our LCH files onto for graphing? Smiley Would be nice!
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shewhorn
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« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2010, 10:13:25 AM »
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Good thought Joe! 've been a daily ColorPort user for many years now and love it (but want to see it updated!). Want to get to work making a simple app that we can drag and drop our LCH files onto for graphing? Smiley Would be nice!

Maybe remind me in February (I have a lot of balls in the air right now). I haven't touched a line of code since September of 2002 but I keep flirting with the idea of writing something just to see if I can remember anything (the nerd in me misses my coding days).

Cheers, Joe
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Mulis Pictus
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« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2010, 06:26:05 AM »
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Hi Scott,

these are not density curves, but DeltaE 94 to media white values. So it is combining lightness, chroma and hue, trying to provide linearized measure of saturation.

Not sure if looking at chroma alone is best for our purposes, for example I think darker colors are perceived as more saturated compared to lighter color with the same chroma. It might be even useful to look at Hue itself, if I remember correctly the hue (of one color/ink channel) can change when there's too much ink on paper - close to ink limit. So I plan to make it possible to display these four graphs, Lightness/Luminosity/Density, Chroma, Hue and DeltaE 94, to have better idea of what's going with measured setting. How does it sound?

I also wonder how(and if) to analyze combined ink limiting (compared to looking at primary colors from linearization targets).

Hey Radek, these appear to be density curves, not the chroma curves we're seeking.

The maximum density usually isn't necessarily the optimal one. When we compare ink densities next to chroma values you'll find that they increase together up to a certain point at which the chroma will start to fall as the density continues to increase. This chroma plateau usually occurs pretty close to maximum density but the difference is important. The base of the chroma plateau represents the optimal ink limiting and is helps determine which media setting is optimal. So the moral of the story isL don't go for the maximum density without bleeding - go for the density that maximizes chroma *instead* of density! A better tool for that would be nice. We need to do the colorimetricly, not subjectively with our eyes.
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