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Author Topic: z3100 - Ilford Gold Silk or HP Baryte Satin?  (Read 4292 times)
Roscolo
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« on: July 19, 2010, 06:28:02 PM »
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Well, just did my first print on Ilford Gold Silk and, yeck! I updated firmware for this? Printed using HP Baryte paper setting since Ilford doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to put make a z3100 paper preset available. I used the Ilford profile for z3100. Profile is good because color is spot-on, but the gloss differential is TERRIBLE. I used full gloss differential and 600dpi and gloss differential on Ilford Gold Silk is so bad as to render this paper a ridiculous waste.

So, I'm going to try making doing a calibration and custom profile and see what that gets me, but in the meantime I'm wondering maybe Ilford just isn't the way to go in the digital age. HP papers really seem to outshine the rest on the z. Anyone used the actual HP Baryte Satin paper? Really, any gloss differential at all is unacceptable to me, so don't hold back.

Thanks.

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AnthonyHope
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 03:58:35 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Well, just did my first print on Ilford Gold Silk and, yeck! I updated firmware for this? Printed using HP Baryte paper setting since Ilford doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to put make a z3100 paper preset available. I used the Ilford profile for z3100. Profile is good because color is spot-on, but the gloss differential is TERRIBLE. I used full gloss differential and 600dpi and gloss differential on Ilford Gold Silk is so bad as to render this paper a ridiculous waste.

So, I'm going to try making doing a calibration and custom profile and see what that gets me, but in the meantime I'm wondering maybe Ilford just isn't the way to go in the digital age. HP papers really seem to outshine the rest on the z. Anyone used the actual HP Baryte Satin paper? Really, any gloss differential at all is unacceptable to me, so don't hold back.

Thanks.


Hi, I would double check that Iflord recommend the paper using HP ink. I tested the gold silk with my B8850 and then noticed that Ilfords compatability chart didn't recommend it for HP inks.

Cheers

Anthony
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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 05:31:05 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Well, just did my first print on Ilford Gold Silk and, yeck! I updated firmware for this? Printed using HP Baryte paper setting since Ilford doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to put make a z3100 paper preset available. I used the Ilford profile for z3100. Profile is good because color is spot-on, but the gloss differential is TERRIBLE. I used full gloss differential and 600dpi and gloss differential on Ilford Gold Silk is so bad as to render this paper a ridiculous waste.

So, I'm going to try making doing a calibration and custom profile and see what that gets me, but in the meantime I'm wondering maybe Ilford just isn't the way to go in the digital age. HP papers really seem to outshine the rest on the z. Anyone used the actual HP Baryte Satin paper? Really, any gloss differential at all is unacceptable to me, so don't hold back.

Thanks.

HP's Baryte Satin paper was a major disappointment, at least for me. I tried a roll as soon as it came out, and using HP's recommended preset consistently got wicked cockling (buckling) of the paper under inkloads in large prints with significant dark areas. The cockling was so severe that I repeatedly got headstrikes. To their credit, HP immediately responded to my complaints and modified the preset for this paper, but it didn't completely solve the problem. I still got noticeable ripples in large prints, and d-max suffered.

With the Z3100 I got consistently excellent color prints using Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta. Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl provides a deeper d-max but a narrower color gamut, so it was my first choice for black & white.
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 01:31:24 PM »
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Quote from: Geoff Wittig
With the Z3100 I got consistently excellent color prints using Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta. Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl provides a deeper d-max but a narrower color gamut, so it was my first choice for black & white.

Haven't tried the Photo Rag Baryta with color prints, but like Geoff, I sure like it with B&W!

Jim
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Jim Cole
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Roscolo
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 02:56:25 PM »
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Thanks for the replies. I really don't want to get into buying a bunch brands testing this stuff because I only have 1 or 2 customers interested. Sounds like from here and from previous threads a lot of folks like the Hahnemule Baryta.

I use HP ID Satin a lot. Can someone make this comparison for me? Tactile quality aside, if you put HP ID Satin next to Hahnemule Baryta, how does the gloss differential compare to the almost complete lack of gloss differential on HP ID Satin? I need to print color images on the baryta paper.

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William Morse
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 03:07:04 PM »
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Quote from: Geoff Wittig
HP's Baryte Satin paper was a major disappointment, at least for me. I tried a roll as soon as it came out, and using HP's recommended preset consistently got wicked cockling (buckling) of the paper under inkloads in large prints with significant dark areas. The cockling was so severe that I repeatedly got headstrikes. To their credit, HP immediately responded to my complaints and modified the preset for this paper, but it didn't completely solve the problem. I still got noticeable ripples in large prints, and d-max suffered.

With the Z3100 I got consistently excellent color prints using Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta. Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl provides a deeper d-max but a narrower color gamut, so it was my first choice for black & white.
Yup, got a bunch of the HP baryte laying around. OTOH, the GFS is a wonderful paper, IMO, at least on the z3200. The issue on the z3100 is going to be applying enough GE- but with the new firmware, you can vary the GE, no?

Bill
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Wm. Morse Editions
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Roscolo
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 03:24:06 PM »
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Quote from: William Morse
Yup, got a bunch of the HP baryte laying around. OTOH, the GFS is a wonderful paper, IMO, at least on the z3200. The issue on the z3100 is going to be applying enough GE- but with the new firmware, you can vary the GE, no?

Bill

Maybe that's the problem. I haven't figured out how to put down more Gloss enhancer. It's so bad, though, it's hard to imagine eliminating the gloss differential. That said, different people have different ideas of what looks good. My customer checked out some of the GFS prints and he wasn't bothered so much by all the gloss differential. He likes the feel of the prints, and that is a big deal for him. For me, the gloss differential is a deal killer on the GFS. I may just gamble on a roll of Hahnemule Baryta if I can't find a sample to look at anywhere.

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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 03:59:18 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Maybe that's the problem. I haven't figured out how to put down more Gloss enhancer. It's so bad, though, it's hard to imagine eliminating the gloss differential. That said, different people have different ideas of what looks good. My customer checked out some of the GFS prints and he wasn't bothered so much by all the gloss differential. He likes the feel of the prints, and that is a big deal for him. For me, the gloss differential is a deal killer on the GFS. I may just gamble on a roll of Hahnemule Baryta if I can't find a sample to look at anywhere.

No gamble at all in my judgement; Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta is a gorgeous paper with lovely hand feel. Shame about the price, but you get what you pay for. I like the surface texture more than GFS with the Z3100; it seems more organic and less machine-made, at least to my eye. Now that I'm using a Canon iPF6300, it's still my favorite paper for personal work I care about.

 For what it's worth, I used HP's professional satin for a lot of of my black & white on the Z3100  because the very cool paper white permitted me to make prints that had a bit of that split-toned selenium look, with nice cool highlights and very slightly warm shadows, and gloss differential was fairly minimal. Hand feel sucks, though; pure plastic. By comparison photo rag baryta and photo rag pearl have a much more neutral to slightly warm base, which basically mandates a warmer toning for B&W prints.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 04:16:55 PM »
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Thank you, Geoff, for the excellent info. Hate to nag, but one more question and I'm leaving this alone. Can you speak to how the gloss differential or lack thereof on the Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta compares to the amount of gloss differential you saw on the HP Pro Satin?

Thank you!

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jhein
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 05:01:39 PM »
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Based on what MR said here about the new Canson Baryta paper being his new favorite paper, I tried a 13x19 box on my Z3100.  Canson recommends the Fine Art (more ink) preset.  Anyway I truly hate gloss differential like you do, so I can happily report the Canson paper and the Z are an awesome match.  No GD, no cockling, and no headstrikes.  

hope this helps
Jim
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Roscolo
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 05:40:13 PM »
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First I've heard of the Canson Baryta. No gloss differential sounds good to me. Anyone else use Canson? My real problem is this customer's deadline isn't allowing time for me to order sample packs from everywhere and still have time to stock up on what I like best.

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mshowe
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 07:41:40 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Well, just did my first print on Ilford Gold Silk and, yeck! I updated firmware for this? Printed using HP Baryte paper setting since Ilford doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to put make a z3100 paper preset available. I used the Ilford profile for z3100. Profile is good because color is spot-on, but the gloss differential is TERRIBLE. I used full gloss differential and 600dpi and gloss differential on Ilford Gold Silk is so bad as to render this paper a ridiculous waste.

So, I'm going to try making doing a calibration and custom profile and see what that gets me, but in the meantime I'm wondering maybe Ilford just isn't the way to go in the digital age. HP papers really seem to outshine the rest on the z. Anyone used the actual HP Baryte Satin paper? Really, any gloss differential at all is unacceptable to me, so don't hold back.

Thanks.
I have the same issues with the ilford gold silk on my z3200,i have even changed the gloss optomizer up to 120% and still have the gloss differential.ithe same holds true with the canson baryte, have the same problem with my 3800 epson,both of these papers are unusable in my workflow.
 Milt!
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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 07:56:09 PM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Thank you, Geoff, for the excellent info. Hate to nag, but one more question and I'm leaving this alone. Can you speak to how the gloss differential or lack thereof on the Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta compares to the amount of gloss differential you saw on the HP Pro Satin?

Thank you!

Good question. I had to run upstairs to look at some of my prints; didn't trust my memory. HP pro satin demonstrates almost no gloss differential, at least with my prints. You can just catch a bit at extreme glare angles, generally in the highlights. Using the Z3100, Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta doesn't show any gloss differential...at least not what I'd call gloss differential. There is just a bit of subtle sheen in some color highlights, but it's not objectionable, at least to my eye.

Honestly, I'd love a paper with the cotton rag base and hand feel of Hahnemuhle's photo rag paper, and the very subtle and unobtrusive surface texture of HP's pro satin. Sigh.
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deanwork
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 10:28:40 PM »
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I've used them all on the Z3100. I never achieved a decent result with the Ilford Gold in regard to gloss AND bronzing issues. It also scratches so easily in and out of the printer.

I have used Photorag Baryta as the primary media for this for years for color and bw. It's great with no oba to burn out and minimal gloss differential. It's issue is the strange dark spots that occur randomly in the emulsion of the roll. I've just had to live with it and waste a  big print occasionally. This is a very common complaint. I found the HP Baryta about the worst of all I tried in all respects. Crane Silver Rag works well and Cone Type 5, very similar to that looks excellent in all aspects, not rag but no oba. Recently I tried some sheets of the Canson Platine which is their best gloss fiber paper. It works really well on the Z3100 and is brighter than Photorag Baryta but still has no oba content. It is high quality stuff and I like many of their papers now. I don't quite like the finer texture quite as much as Photorag Baryta that to me looks more convincing for a gelatin silver look, but it is probably what I'm going to end up standardizing on if Hahnemuhle can't get their quality control issue together with these dark spots in the emulsion.

j
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kers
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 05:43:10 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Well, just did my first print on Ilford Gold Silk and, yeck! I updated firmware for this? Printed using HP Baryte paper setting since Ilford doesn't seem to think it worthwhile to put make a z3100 paper preset available. I used the Ilford profile for z3100. Profile is good because color is spot-on, but the gloss differential is TERRIBLE. I used full gloss differential and 600dpi and gloss differential on Ilford Gold Silk is so bad as to render this paper a ridiculous waste.

So, I'm going to try making doing a calibration and custom profile and see what that gets me, but in the meantime I'm wondering maybe Ilford just isn't the way to go in the digital age. HP papers really seem to outshine the rest on the z. Anyone used the actual HP Baryte Satin paper? Really, any gloss differential at all is unacceptable to me, so don't hold back.

Thanks.


I have used HP satin baryta paper- in short - it is not good (  GE works well). It does not allow much ink on it and it has no deep blacks. fortunately i knew somebody who did not need deep blacks and liked the paper..
There is something odd with the z3100 printer ( i have myself)  You can put every paper in it and calibrate it - but- the gloss enhancer works only on specific surfaces so you end up with HP paper...
and you lost your gain.

I think the problem is Epson is still used as a reference for the paper manufactory- and alas not HP

I agree on you about the gloss differential on the fibre silk of Ilford. It seems it works better on an Epson.

There are two paper I would consider that work better with the GE of the HPz3100-  Hahnemuke photo rag baryta  and Epson traditional photopaper  the latter works best with the GE but they say contains whiteners...  still acording to wilhelm research it hold well over time ( tested with epson ink- but still)
These papers will only be my choice for black and white - but that is personal.



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Pieter Kers
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Roscolo
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 11:18:51 AM »
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Thanks for all the replies and input! Sounds like Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta is the clear choice for the z. Think I'll just go ahead and try a roll.

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Colorwave
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 12:26:27 PM »
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Good call.  Another vote for the Photo Rag Baryta from me, for the reasons mentioned above.
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AnthonyHope
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 03:47:48 AM »
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I'd recommend trying HP's own Pro satin paper. I find it better than Harman gloss, Hanhemule and the rest on an HP printer.

Good luck

Anthony
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Roscolo
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 11:51:12 PM »
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Got my roll of Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta today. Ilford Fiber Gold Silk can't hold a candle to the Hahnemule. Ilford Gold Silk doesn't even look like baryta, or smell like it. Feels like plastic. The Hahnemule roll really had a strong, old-school baryta smell. Looks and feels like classic double fiber weight silver gelatin. I've only made a couple of images thus far, but my client was very pleased, as was I.

Great looking paper, but at about double the price I pay for canvas, the price is still a little rich for my blood. If Hahnemule could find a way to bring the price down about 30% I think I would throw out all my HP ID Satin and change to my photo paper printing to exclusively Hahn Photo Rag Baryta and nothing else. As it is, I'll have a little on hand for the customer's that are willing to pay, and occasionally print a few of my images on it.

Thanks for the recommendations. Really worked out well.

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2010, 04:16:31 AM »
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Quote from: Roscolo
Got my roll of Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta today. Ilford Fiber Gold Silk can't hold a candle to the Hahnemule. Ilford Gold Silk doesn't even look like baryta, or smell like it. Feels like plastic. The Hahnemule roll really had a strong, old-school baryta smell. Looks and feels like classic double fiber weight silver gelatin. I've only made a couple of images thus far, but my client was very pleased, as was I.

Great looking paper, but at about double the price I pay for canvas, the price is still a little rich for my blood. If Hahnemule could find a way to bring the price down about 30% I think I would throw out all my HP ID Satin and change to my photo paper printing to exclusively Hahn Photo Rag Baryta and nothing else. As it is, I'll have a little on hand for the customer's that are willing to pay, and occasionally print a few of my images on it.

Thanks for the recommendations. Really worked out well.

There are 4 fiber/baryta papers with very similar spectral reflectance: HP Photorag Baryta, HP Baryta Satin Art, Sihl 4804 Professional Photo Barite Paper an Lumijet Natural Pearl. I think the last is no longer in the catalogs an I have not printed on it. Both the HM and the Sihl print nice on the Z models but the Sihl may even be more expensive. It is slightly more matt and warmer.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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