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Author Topic: New Mac Pros released  (Read 11332 times)
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2010, 04:26:52 PM »
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I've decided to just buy the 5870 today, when it's available.
I don't need all the extra slots but I don't think for Photoshop and final cut pro the 12 core will be much faster than what I use now, I would have to pay 3000.00 euro at least to upgrade and that's a huge amount of money for maybe a noticable slight speed increase, I think the new card will boost my 2008 macro much more.
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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2010, 04:28:19 PM »
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Let's face facts- the discussion whether Mac Pro, seen from hardware point of view, is still for pros or not could've taken place the very moment Apple decided to switch to Intel architecture. Now it's quite obvious.. there's nothing special about Mac anymore. It was the moment when they become the same computer as a PC, the difference was a beautiful and appealing aluminum box and, more importantly, the OS. It's literally THE SAME architecture, it's only OS that makes any difference. And the fact that you can get a monster-PC which is probably 2 times faster and twice as versatile for the same money as a Mac Pro (at least thats the case in Central Europe). Speaking of OS- neat and tidy Win XP (you have to know how to care for a Windows computer) with service pack 3 and *ALL* updates was as stable as they get in terms of Adobe Creative Suite applications, 3d software, rendering, etc etc. I've been using macs and pcs for years in flash/photoshop/illustrator/indesign and even though it's hard to crash Mac OS, the Adobe applications were crashing as much as they were on Windows based PC ( = they weren't crashing much, even though I squeezed the last drips of sweat from both while working with huge files). I don't have years of experience with digital backs software, but my back is 1.5 year old and during that time, using latest versions of C1 and earlier- Leaf Capture, I didn't notice any stability difference- neither in processing nor in tethering. My point is that a 'computer for a pro' is a computer which delivers. Nothing more and nothing less. And that's the case of your own habits and experience, whether you feel more comfortable with a Mac OS or Windows, it's a SUBJECTIVE choice.

Many years ago, Mac was the industry standard. Why? Because there wasn't really any competition. Now it's also a standard and a default platform, but it's due to the fact that people are USED TO Macs. Macs     are    not     better.  You can talk to Apple zealot and he'll try to convince you that Apple is far superior in all possible ways. Don't believe him, and him stating such things can tell that he's not a pro. In fact, there is one exception from this and that's movie (and more generally- motion) industry- the software for Mac is industry standard so there's no other solution really. Other than that and maybe some niche applications- it's only your own preference and subjective choice- you have to decide with which you feel more comfortable: is it a good-looking, gorgously designed not-so-high-end machine which is uncustomizable and expensive but has accordingly good looking and intuitive OS or is it an obscure plastic box with a rip-off OS, which will fit all your needs and more in terms of power and versitality for half the price of a Mac. There is no perfect solutions. For instance, for me the biggest benefit of working with a Mac is the aesthetics. I know I'll feel better when I draw, design, work on typography etc etc in Mac environment, because everything which surrounds me there is aesthetically appealing.  It's easier to focus and not be disturbed but awkward and ugly design of Windows, even their fonts- I find them to be disturbing. I just don't understand how would any pro make a choice of their platform looking at the charts or thinking that a Mac equals rock-solid stability in comparance with a Windows PC. Maybe quite a  few years ago, definitely it's not the case nowadays.


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pcunite
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2010, 05:09:36 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
As far as the PC thing, I've gone that route when Apple's USB was a slow as the DMV line, but in reality Vista and 7 weren't bad but just not that intuitive for a Mac User.  You have to watch out for Viruses, load goofy software to read a Mac formatted drive and no offense to the PC world but man they can make some damn ugly machines.

Just to make sure everyone is aware, Windows XP onward did not have a virus attack vector issue, 90% of systems are not configured properly by their owners to be LUA+SRP enabled. I have not used virus scanning software in over 7 years. I NEVER have issues. I am sure you understand how that 90% of camera owners don't know how to properly create images... it is the same in the Windows world.

I suggest all running Windows to properly learn how to setup your machine. It takes about 10 minutes to setup LUA+SRP and then your good. This site has it written for a novice to understand:

http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/


I will summarize, "make any directory I can write to, NOT be executable", when you make that simple change along with being logged into the machine as a non-Admin, then viruses CAN NOT run, if your browser get's high-jacked and writes to a temp location, they CAN NOT run. You get the idea.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:20:00 PM by pcunite » Logged
CBarrett
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2010, 05:30:24 PM »
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Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true?  I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems.  However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.

Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?

You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.

Hmm...

CB
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Christopher
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2010, 07:36:54 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true?  I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems.  However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.

Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?

You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.

Hmm...

CB

Well MainGear, looks nice but expensive, if I put together my current workstation I end up at 11.700 US which is around 9000EUR. Well I payed around 6000 for mine. So as far as I see it if you really want to save money, you have to built it yourself, other wise it will be expensive no matter whether PC or Mac.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2010, 07:40:37 PM »
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Let's not make this a Mac vs pc topic.
As mentioned before I've worked with PCs exclusively till 2 years ago, and still use PCs on a daily basis.
My wife owns a store that sells both PC and Mac.
There is a difference between the two.

One can say that a PC has the same specs so should be a better option but a PC is not a Mac and a mac is not a PC.
They are both different machines.

For me the attraction to the Mac was the simple fact that every component is optimized for the use they get.
Also speed. I never ever seen a PC in the time I bought my 8 core that was faster with huge files than that 8 core.
Now two years later there are fast PCs but when seeing the price point om something that would equal the new macro 12 core one can also not be done for half the price, only when looking at specs, but if you want the best components it's simply more expensive.

Leaves us to the simple fact that a pc doesn't run macos.
Ok windows7 is nice but it's no snow leopard.... It doesn't aperture, it doesn't run final cut pro.
Yes there are alternatives but I don't like light room that much and final cut is just better for me than avid or ulead or adobe.

I also don't like the fact you pay a lot of money for the MacBook pro or the macro but to be honest I never ever used a laptop that after a year of heavy used looked liked it was new out of the box.
I never had a PC laptop that never crashed on me on location, did not needed a reboot during a full day, or simply had the screen quality the Mac has, and to top it off that had powered FireWire to run my back.

Macs are no PCs and PCs are no macs, no reason to push people towards a PC, if they would have wanted they would do it
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 07:41:34 PM by Frank Doorhof » Logged
Mr. Rib
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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2010, 08:21:54 PM »
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Few things I'd like to add- first, yes- you cant buy twice faster PC for twice less money in the day of newest Mac Pro generation premiere.. but keep in mind that Macs will be refreshed with new CPUs probably in about 2 years. wait less than half year.
Then,  second thing- Christopher is right that if you want to achieve a really fast PC within the mentioned budget, you'd have to buy it part by part. Yes, it is troublesome. Few months of delay + some time sacrificed to get that cheap parts and voila, you have it. Apple invests in great CPUs, ok mainboards / RAM and mediocre rest, to say the least. but the biggest disappointment and field of speed gain for PCs are the graphic cards. CUDA gains more and more ground, getting support from everywhere. Mac Pros usually come with these $50-100 graphic cards. And you can upgrade, but not that much.. ATI Radeon HD 4870? Please...If I was after performance / specs, I'd go for a PC. But for reasons mentioned in my post earlier, I'll stick with a Mac.  
However, I admit I get more and more irritated by their marketing practices. The banner on their very first page informing how much they care and love their subcontractors following the suicidal events in Foxconn was hard to swallow for me. PCs are same story, it's all really messed up, but how much hipocricy can these Apple marketing guys engage amazes me.

And this also isn't encouraging:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOGTbA

oh yes, brainwash me
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2010, 09:34:02 PM »
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Quote from: CBarrett
Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true?  I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems.  However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.

Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?

You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.

Hmm...

CB


Given the camera gear you have put together, building a pc should be a cakewalk for you....
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Craig Lamson Photo
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K.C.
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2010, 01:41:52 AM »
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It must be another sign of the weak economy that pros have time to waste with the age old, completely pointless debate of PC vs. Mac.

Buy what you like and use it.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2010, 03:58:19 AM »
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Are you surprise?
If those topic A vs B are inundating the internet forums.

As Frank said, these are different animals, and as C.Barrett also said, design plays a big role. There is no sense IMO, if you are used and happy with Mac design (wich is still a better design no doubt, at least in terms of usability)
to move to PC. What would you win? Another learning curve in the very very long list.

Very true also that PC can indeed be extremely powerfull, and beats the macs but then to a much higher price.

Also, most of the retouchers, videographers etc...are used to Mac more than PC and this is an important factor when you have people working for you in the studio.

I don't see PC for the moment, invading the photographic studios. For the moment, and that is where my point is. And my point is probably somewhat speculative.

The reality is starting to change in the sense that we observe a move on the Mac's politics with the pro devices.
Mac wants to fill the consummer marketplace with their products and that is not a very good news for us, because we all know what does it mean.
But this is not going to be relevant now, I think more in a long term so we do not have to preocupate, there are no reasons for it.

Just wait and see and keep an eye on Mac (because they are changing), but no rush to PC world. That makes no sense.

It is true that I was using Mac much more before, and I see myself using PC more and more. I'm used of both and that's fine.

Mac external design also is cool, it ads a visual design to the studio that does not have pc. Mac is clean, minimalist and looks better, for some it is also important.

Now, I've seen a degradation in their stores and services clearly. Mac is fashionable nowdays, very fashionable even in "targets" that where not addicted to Mac and the result reflects in their
products stored. Want a non-glossy screen? Not easy, waiting list. Unthinkable a few years ago. Things like that.

In Madrid, there are more and more Mac shops, sign of the time.
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Christopher
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« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2010, 05:55:05 AM »
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Well it certainly is a important to what you are used to. I would never go back to a mac. I still have a mac mini sitting here, which is nice and fun, but I wouldn't say the OS is any better than Windows 7. On the other side I only worked for with macs for 4 years and worked with PCs over 10 years, so that could be the main point, why I just prefer to work with a PC. "Mac external design also is cool, it ads a visual design to the studio that does not have pc." Well I think there are some very nice designed PC cases which look better than any MacPro, but again everyone has different taste.

Which System is cheaper and so on, can't really be said until we see some actuall MacPro prices.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2010, 08:09:58 AM »
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Quote from: fredjeang
Are you surprise?
If those topic A vs B are inundating the internet forums.

I don't think we have a PC vs Mac discussion here. At least not one that is based on brand loyalty as opposed to being based on an objective analysis of the value proposition put forward by both companies.

The OSX platform is very close to a camera system in that it is closed and leaves no options but those provided by Apple. Just like a closed camera system it did deliver good enough value to me until now to make me forget about the downsides of being closed. The past tense is important here.

Just like serious users of Nikon were rightfully mad at Nikon a few years back for not delivering to them the cameras they thought they needed, it is legitimate for people having invested in Apple with software and often more than one computer to be un-satisfied with Apple not delivering the kind of system we expect. Actually, not complaining this time around would be a sign of unreasonnable brand loyalty.

There are is only one reasonnable option besides OSX for people into using computers (as oppose to people building computers), and that is Win 7 as we speak. It is therefore unavoidable that reasonnable users of computers question the relevance of investing more money on Mac Pros at this point of time.

I do not need to upgrade my Mac Pro right away and will give Apple the benefit of the doubt over one more generation. If things stay what they are next time I will move back to what might be win 8 by then. That will be one more fact based decision similar to that involving buying a Toyota instead of a Hyundai.

Cheers,
Bernard

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A few images online here!
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2010, 10:30:46 AM »
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Quote from: pcunite
Just to make sure everyone is aware, Windows XP onward did not have a virus attack vector issue, 90% of systems are not configured properly by their owners to be LUA+SRP enabled. I have not used virus scanning software in over 7 years. I NEVER have issues. I am sure you understand how that 90% of camera owners don't know how to properly create images... it is the same in the Windows world.

I suggest all running Windows to properly learn how to setup your machine. It takes about 10 minutes to setup LUA+SRP and then your good. This site has it written for a novice to understand:

http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/


I will summarize, "make any directory I can write to, NOT be executable", when you make that simple change along with being logged into the machine as a non-Admin, then viruses CAN NOT run, if your browser get's high-jacked and writes to a temp location, they CAN NOT run. You get the idea.



+1 here with NO VIRUS software or virus issues.  I did have a few bot browser add ons a couple years back that anoyd me... that was cleared quick.

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If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...
John.Murray
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2010, 03:36:31 PM »
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What I find a bit dissapointing is the lack of expansion + expense of upgrades.  The base Mac Pro system still has no onboard RAID, still limited to 4 spindles, etc.....

For the base price - you can do better:

http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end

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kers
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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2010, 06:05:41 AM »
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Quote from: Joh.Murray
What I find a bit dissapointing is the lack of expansion + expense of upgrades.  The base Mac Pro system still has no onboard RAID, still limited to 4 spindles, etc.....

For the base price - you can do better:

http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end

Hello John,

After seeing your home build high end desktop I have a few questions.

I am a photographer that uses Photoshop. I use currently a Macpro 2008

in line with Diglloyds findings iI think that for photoshop a fast GPU is not that important . Because it hardly uses it.
Like him I even turned GPU acceleration off for it only brought me trouble- it makes the program instable ever since CS4 and turning it on does not add serious benefits.
Do you think that is a Mac related problem?

Also - only few programs use more than 2 cores - so one six core Westmere would be sufficient. and then rather the fastest one ( 3,33KHZ)
Does that sound logical to you?
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Pieter Kers
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2010, 07:29:08 AM »
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Quote from: kers
Also - only few programs use more than 2 cores - so one six core Westmere would be sufficient. and then rather the fastest one ( 3,33KHZ)
Does that sound logical to you?

Actually, there are some programs that make efficient use of multi-cores:

- Helicon
- C1 Pro
- autopano pro/PT gui (at least part of the process)

Besides we can expect further improvement and to see more and more use cases where applications making efficient use of multi-cores are used simultaneously.

So assuming that you intend to keep your next Mac Pro for 4 years, which seems pretty standard, I would personnally disagree with the opinion that 6 cores is going to be enough. Now the current prices of 6 cores CPU is beyond reason and it seems to me that this is not the right time to upgrade. I would wait one more generation of CPUs - probably 8 cores ones - before upgrading.

What is the issue with your 2008 Mac Pro?

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
Dustbak
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« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2010, 07:38:51 AM »
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Same goes for:

Hasselblad's Phocus.
Photoshop CS5 (not everything but quite a lot of parts of it use all cores it can).

I cannot tell about other programs but these 2 I have noticed on my own MacPro (2009 Nehalem model).
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John.Murray
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« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2010, 11:53:43 AM »
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Despite the limited number of applications with multicore support (it's my understanding that Lightroom is), it's important to remember that the underlying O/S *is*.  The ramification here is that various operating system chores, disk access, etc will be offloaded to other cores - freeing up resources for the application in question.

In the case of GPU support, the machine I describe will effectively manage dual displays of up to 1920x1200.  I've had no CS5 issues running one of these into a single 2560x1440 display.

Although I suppose you could call this a "home built" machine, assembling this is a bit more involved (I'm an Intel Channel Partner).  I build a fair number of machines based on this platform for a variety of purposes, including Directory Services, Departmental Database, and Medical Imaging.
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kers
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« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2010, 05:31:29 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
What is the issue with your 2008 Mac Pro?

Cheers,
Bernard


As always if you try to do it right- it goes wrong… I installed CS5 premium production in a fresh installed OSX 10.6.4 environment but i only had problems-  serious freezes with photoshop 12.0 - the  hole system came down- twice a day

after doing it all over again i decided to put the cpu acceleration off- I had no freezes since…  ( I know that is no scientific proof- but i have no time or knowledge to investigate it further)






Quote from: Joh.Murray
Although I suppose you could call this a "home built" machine, assembling this is a bit more involved (I'm an Intel Channel Partner).  I build a fair number of machines based on this platform for a variety of purposes, including Directory Services, Departmental Database, and Medical Imaging.

No offense- I am dutch ( that is my weak defense)- I only used the term 'home build' to state it was not an OEM system but put together by ones specific choice...



Quote from: Dustbak
Same goes for:

Hasselblad's Phocus.
Photoshop CS5 (not everything but quite a lot of parts of it use all cores it can).

I cannot tell about other programs but these 2 I have noticed on my own MacPro (2009 Nehalem model).


I know some programs use my 8 cores (DXO for one) but they are rare. besides the hexacore is able to provide 12 lanes of work if i am not mistaken…

Photoshop CS5 is an improvement compared to CS4 but hardly uses more than 4 cores-

The main problem with photoshop 12 is the PSD format I guess- Opening and saving still uses one core.

It is rather silly to see photoshop saving again the 1 GIG file while you know you only changed some metadata ….

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Pieter Kers
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« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2010, 01:58:05 PM »
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Quote from: Chris Sanderson
I have to pile on here. The critique linked above is very true and accurate from my pov.
...
As the Brook Willard column points out, the new MacPro doesn't look any less in need of substantial add-ons.

I agree with many things he said re. the shortcomings of the MacPro, but I think he is plain wrong when he believes the G3/4/5 models were competitive .
Let's face it, the Mhz myth was just that - a myth, but one invented by Apple to defend their lacklustre hardware.

Quote
BUT - all of its PCI slots are filled, I have had to replace the pathetic video card with something slightly less under-powered (the still-standard NVIDIA GeForce GT 120) in order to get smooth HD playback and I still need a second machine if I want to compress video and continue editing at the same time - and the new beast has 24 GB of RAM!

No offence, but you must be kidding. Running a multi-core aware program, and keep using other power hungry apps at the same time ?
It's like doing squats while riding a bike uphill - something's got to give.
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