Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Fluid-Mount Scans-  (Read 7824 times)
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2804


« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2010, 02:49:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Peter McLennan
How does fluid scanning resolve film flatness issues?  
Does it just force the film to be flat?  Or is there some optical effect happening?

Capillary and/or Van der Waals forces pull the film to the "perfectly" flat glass surface with wet mounting. "Perfectly" = with the curve of the earth's surface for float glass. Yes, it just forces the film to be flat. That flatness in itself improves the optical path of light but there are other optical effects that improve the light transmission on for example the matte emulsion coating side of B&W film. In general less scattering and less layer boundary refraction. Of course the main advantage is focus being perfect on all spots of the film with the assumption that the focus is in a flat field. My Nikon 8000 may have a slightly cilindrical focus field though given what I measure in the last focus differences left after creating a wet mount holder and tweaking that holder for even focus.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2804


« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2010, 06:35:25 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Roscolo
I've read elsewhere about someone wet mounting with an Ultra, but when I can print 4x5's to 40x50 inches and see film grain, I don't know.


You see "aliased" grain. The result of the actual optical resolution + the film grain or dye cloud size scanned. Even on a Nikon 8000-9000 with actual resolution around 3700 PPI it is aliased grain that we see, even Tri-X developed in Rodinal isn't resolved at grain size



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm






Logged
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2010, 08:15:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Capillary and/or Van der Waals forces pull the film to the "perfectly" flat glass surface with wet mounting.

With a few exceptions.  The clip marks on the 4x5 film can sometimes cause some trouble.  I tape two corners and then use a cover sheet, and I try to tape down the clipmark corners, but if they're too buckled there's not much you can do.  You get a bubble, that scans as a line.  If the film was creased or otherwise damaged you'd probably get the same problem.  Thankfully I haven't seen any film that bad...  yet.  
Logged

Ted Dillard
Christoph C. Feldhaim
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2508


There is no rule! No - wait ...


« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2010, 09:15:41 AM »
ReplyReply

The "aliasing", Moiree sort of artifact is stronger with old, thick films, like Tri-X.
Modern, monodisperse, thin films are much better scannable, e.g. T-Max.
Logged

Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2804


« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2010, 11:01:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: ChristophC
The "aliasing", Moiree sort of artifact is stronger with old, thick films, like Tri-X.
Modern, monodisperse, thin films are much better scannable, e.g. T-Max.


Let's rephrase it then: if he sees grain with a scanner that has a true resolving power of 2000 PPI in best case then it is aliased grain. From whatever film.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2804


« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2010, 11:07:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: teddillard
With a few exceptions.  The clip marks on the 4x5 film can sometimes cause some trouble.  I tape two corners and then use a cover sheet, and I try to tape down the clipmark corners, but if they're too buckled there's not much you can do.  You get a bubble, that scans as a line.  If the film was creased or otherwise damaged you'd probably get the same problem.  Thankfully I haven't seen any film that bad...  yet.  

A PET cover sheet of 10 micron and an overlap of 15mm all around is usually enough in my experience. Ample fluid between the layers. The Nikon holders I made have some spring clamps to hold the overlay at one side so I can insert the MF film in between.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Logged
Roscolo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621


« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2010, 12:01:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
You see "aliased" grain. The result of the actual optical resolution + the film grain or dye cloud size scanned. Even on a Nikon 8000-9000 with actual resolution around 3700 PPI it is aliased grain that we see, even Tri-X developed in Rodinal isn't resolved at grain size



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

That's interesting.I guess what I should have said is I scan my 4x5 film and my final prints from the z3100, even at 40x50 inches, are indistinguishable from what I made in the darkroom. Well, that's not entirely true. My prints from the scans on the z actually look better than the darkroom prints. So with virtually perfect results, I'm not convinced I need to do anything to make them better.

You guys have me intrigued by the wet scanning now. Doesn't look like a wet scanning kit is available for the 45 Ultra, but if I come across one I'll look into it. I do spend a fair amount of time cleaning up scans, especially from customers, but I also don't do as much scanning for clients as a few years ago.


Logged
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2010, 12:17:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Roscolo
You guys have me intrigued by the wet scanning now. Doesn't look like a wet scanning kit is available for the 45 Ultra, but if I come across one I'll look into it. I do spend a fair amount of time cleaning up scans, especially from customers, but I also don't do as much scanning for clients as a few years ago.

heh...  all part of the Master Plan!  

I haven't seen a kit for that scanner either, but you mentioned a glass carrier- that would work.  If you have one, I'd give it a test!
Logged

Ted Dillard
Roscolo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621


« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2010, 01:39:40 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: teddillard
I haven't seen a kit for that scanner either, but you mentioned a glass carrier- that would work.  If you have one, I'd give it a test!

I guess LL needs to add a "Wanted" section. I'll have to watch the auction sites and maybe one comes up. That crashing sound is the sound of all those Polaroid 4x5 scientific glass holders landing in the dumpster over the last 5 years!


Logged
Pacific Image Works
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2010, 03:58:13 AM »
ReplyReply

NOTHING beats a drum scan, and they are always fluid mounted. A good operator will not damage fillm.
The Photo Multiplier Tube technology just blows away CCD scanners.
The Tango drum scanner will run circles around the Imacon Flextite scanners or flatbeds.
Too bad it is so much more expensive.

Craig
Logged
William Morse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 174


WWW
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2010, 06:57:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Pacific Image Works
NOTHING beats a drum scan, and they are always fluid mounted. A good operator will not damage fillm.
The Photo Multiplier Tube technology just blows away CCD scanners.
The Tango drum scanner will run circles around the Imacon Flextite scanners or flatbeds.
Quote
Too bad it is so much more expensive.

Craig
This is the thing that is so weird. My drum scanning is competitive (sometimes more, sometimes less) with services that are clearly inferior such as Imacons and various flatbeds.  (Don't get me wrong, the best Scitex's are great for images that won't wrap on a drum!) In particular, the Imacon hype is incredible.

Bill
Logged

Wm. Morse Editions
A Fine-Art Digital Printmaking Studio
Photography, Limited Editions, Film Drum Scanning
Restored Early 20th Century Photos of China
www.MorseEditions.com
artobest
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 258


WWW
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2010, 08:59:12 AM »
ReplyReply

As an aside, has anyone any experience of using PEC-12 as a scanning fluid?

Cheers

Peter
Logged

William Morse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 174


WWW
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2010, 11:34:15 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: artobest
As an aside, has anyone any experience of using PEC-12 as a scanning fluid?

Cheers

Peter
PEC-12 will destroy any acrylic drum or holder. Don't know about glass, but I imagine it might work. However, it's MUCH to volatile, evaporates too quickly. Stick to Lumina for plastic, Kami for glass.

Bill
Logged

Wm. Morse Editions
A Fine-Art Digital Printmaking Studio
Photography, Limited Editions, Film Drum Scanning
Restored Early 20th Century Photos of China
www.MorseEditions.com
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2010, 03:45:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: Pacific Image Works
NOTHING beats a drum scan, and they are always fluid mounted. A good operator will not damage fillm.
The Photo Multiplier Tube technology just blows away CCD scanners.
The Tango drum scanner will run circles around the Imacon Flextite scanners or flatbeds.

I always love to hear when something "blows away" some other thing in digital imaging...    The lesson I've learned, over and over in this business, is that it's about the right tool for the job. The right tool will "blow away" every other tool for that task.    

The Imacon/Hasselblad scanners are incredibly fast and good for the money and speed- I've used several, and for years.  If I had 150 4x5 scans to make of good condition film I'd pick it in a heartbeat.  The desktop film scanners have their place too- most of my portfolio and website was scanned using one- and it was perfect for that purpose- relatively small inkjet portfolio presentations.  Come in to the studio, set up the thing to scan away, rescan at will if you need to.  The low-end flatbeds, the Epson V700 in particular, is a great scanner, and will adapt to fluid mount.  

Fluid mount, whether a drum or a flatbed, is an incredibly helpful process for damaged film, as I showed at the start of this thread.  Drum scanners are obviously at the top of the pecking order here, but they're not without their problems, as anyone who's had the pleasure of running one knows...  

For example...  got a pinball machine playtable to scan?  Our Cruse blows away everything else out there...    
http://www.parrotcolor.com/store/blog/?p=108

Sorry, but it's unfair to give anyone the impression that unless they're getting a drum scan they're not doing it right...  it's just not the case.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 03:47:20 PM by teddillard » Logged

Ted Dillard
William Morse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 174


WWW
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2010, 04:51:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: teddillard
I always love to hear when something "blows away" some other thing in digital imaging...    The lesson I've learned, over and over in this business, is that it's about the right tool for the job. The right tool will "blow away" every other tool for that task.    

The Imacon/Hasselblad scanners are incredibly fast and good for the money and speed- I've used several, and for years.  If I had 150 4x5 scans to make of good condition film I'd pick it in a heartbeat.  The desktop film scanners have their place too- most of my portfolio and website was scanned using one- and it was perfect for that purpose- relatively small inkjet portfolio presentations.  Come in to the studio, set up the thing to scan away, rescan at will if you need to.  The low-end flatbeds, the Epson V700 in particular, is a great scanner, and will adapt to fluid mount.  

Fluid mount, whether a drum or a flatbed, is an incredibly helpful process for damaged film, as I showed at the start of this thread.  Drum scanners are obviously at the top of the pecking order here, but they're not without their problems, as anyone who's had the pleasure of running one knows...  

For example...  got a pinball machine playtable to scan?  Our Cruse blows away everything else out there...    
http://www.parrotcolor.com/store/blog/?p=108

Sorry, but it's unfair to give anyone the impression that unless they're getting a drum scan they're not doing it right...  it's just not the case.
Hi Ted-

While it's certainly true that many tasks do not require the best processes, and without debating the merits of "blown away" kinds of language, this is in fact the point. For some tasks, some processes are demonstrably better than others, and while you may complain about hyperbole, I am much more bothered by the "as good as a drum scan" baloney (is that hyperbole?  ;^) from Imacon and others. It's just not true!

Your Cruze is IMHO the best process for photographing art; BetterLight is also excellent, but in most cases cheaper. Why not say so? And don't let the Epsons of the world get away with "It's almost as good as a Cruze!"

(Wishing I could afford more Cruze scans)  

Bill
Logged

Wm. Morse Editions
A Fine-Art Digital Printmaking Studio
Photography, Limited Editions, Film Drum Scanning
Restored Early 20th Century Photos of China
www.MorseEditions.com
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2010, 05:52:49 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: William Morse
... bothered by the "as good as a drum scan" baloney (is that hyperbole?  ;^) from Imacon and others. It's just not true!

Your Cruze is IMHO the best process for photographing art; BetterLight is also excellent, but in most cases cheaper. Why not say so? And don't let the Epsons of the world get away with "It's almost as good as a Cruze!"

(Wishing I could afford more Cruze scans)  

Bill

Yeah, I get caught up with picking nits, as far as word use goes...  My Color Pipeline book has a whole section on terms I'd just as soon never hear used again- because they're never used correctly, or to clarify a concept.  (Anyone for a little metamerism?)  Drove my editor crazy.  

You're right, the Imacon is not the same as the drum scans, or even these flatbed (iQsmart3) scans I've posted because of the fluid, also the CCD limitations of the Imacons...  of course, I've been lucky enough to use just about everything at one time or another, so I have a basis of comparison, I realize not many people have had that curse...  oh, I mean chance...    Until you actually see the differences, it's hard to make a call on which to use and when.

As far as Betterlight being cheaper, yeah, the machine is cheaper...  actually the scans on the Cruse are cheaper though.  Because we can literally fire the scanner up, place the work and do the scan, the pricing is very close to standard scanning costs, MB for MB.  Better too, due to the incredible control you have over the light sources.  In any case but when you can't bring the art to the camera.  I have a video of that too, showing the light control...  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n14eRrLmwsM

Logged

Ted Dillard
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2010, 05:14:34 AM »
ReplyReply

OK, as a result of this thread I made my way over to Bill's studio in the South End here in Boston last night, for the First Friday open studios...  Info on his location and website is on his sig, as you can see, but there I set eyes on a project he's been working on for a while- a series of prints (DRUM) scanned from negatives his grandfather shot as a missionary in China over more than 40 years.  

Amazing.  

I'd encourage anyone in the Boston area to get over there and see these pieces.  It's really a unique opportunity.  It was great seeing you (again, I think  ), Bill, and that is some beautiful work you're doing! You're really fortunate, too, to have such a rich collection to work with- a rare glimpse into daily life in China in the early part of the 20th century.  

Oh, and on topic- it's also a perfect use of a drum scanner and fluid mounting.    (Older originals, possible damage, and delicate- scan 'em once and put them back into safe storage...  )

Thanks for the opportunity to visit, Bill, and great work!

Logged

Ted Dillard
teddillard
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 660


WWW
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2010, 12:47:12 PM »
ReplyReply

FYI I started a thread on the Cruse here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=45339

We have several videos up of the thing in action...
Logged

Ted Dillard
William Morse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 174


WWW
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2010, 01:08:04 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: teddillard
OK, as a result of this thread I made my way over to Bill's studio in the South End here in Boston last night, for the First Friday open studios...  Info on his location and website is on his sig, as you can see, but there I set eyes on a project he's been working on for a while- a series of prints (DRUM) scanned from negatives his grandfather shot as a missionary in China over more than 40 years.  

Amazing.  

I'd encourage anyone in the Boston area to get over there and see these pieces.  It's really a unique opportunity.  It was great seeing you (again, I think  ), Bill, and that is some beautiful work you're doing! You're really fortunate, too, to have such a rich collection to work with- a rare glimpse into daily life in China in the early part of the 20th century.  

Oh, and on topic- it's also a perfect use of a drum scanner and fluid mounting.    (Older originals, possible damage, and delicate- scan 'em once and put them back into safe storage...  )

Thanks for the opportunity to visit, Bill, and great work!
Ted, thanks for the kind words; it was great to see you Friday night! I've been working on my Grandfather's archive of 40 years of photos in China for the last 15 years. I've scanned them with a Polaroid 4x5, a Scitex, and 2 different drum scanners. But the best part, and the reason I spend all that time and money, is for responses such as yours.

BTW, I also showing the work of one of my clients, Bruce Rathbun ( http://berathbun.com), whose 8x20 Platinum Palladium contact prints  are also incredible Bruce was featured in a recent issue of Black and White magazine. I've heard alot about this process, but this is my first chance to see the prints up close. They are wonderful. Bruce will be showing his work for the next two months as well in my studio, so if you're in the Boston area, come on in for September and October open studios. I have been scanning Bruce's 8x20 negs for the past few months; the results are amazing.

Bill
Logged

Wm. Morse Editions
A Fine-Art Digital Printmaking Studio
Photography, Limited Editions, Film Drum Scanning
Restored Early 20th Century Photos of China
www.MorseEditions.com
Pages: « 1 [2]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad