Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Crime of the Century  (Read 13734 times)
JohnKoerner
Guest
« on: August 10, 2010, 08:37:35 AM »
ReplyReply

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerry-cope/t...y_b_662971.html

The unprecedented disaster caused by the BP oil spill at the Deepwater Horizon Mississippi Canyon 252 site continues to expand even as National Incident Commander Thad Allen and BP assert that the situation is improving, the blown-out source capped and holding steady, the situation well in hand and cleanup operations are being scaled back. The New York Times declared on the front page this past week that the oil was disolving more rapidly than anticipated. Time magazine reported that environmental anti-advocate Rush Limbaugh had a point when he said the spill was a "leak". Thad Allen pointed out in a press conference that boats are still skimming on the surface, a futile gesture when the dispersant Corexit is being used to break down oil on the surface. As the oil is broken down, it mixes with the dispersant and flows under or over any booming operations.

To judge from most media coverage, the beaches are open, the fishing restrictions being lifted and the Gulf resorts open for business in a healthy, safe environment. We, along with Pierre LeBlanc, spent the last few weeks along the Gulf coast from Louisiana to Florida, and the reality is distinctly different. The coastal communities of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida have been inundated by the oil and toxic dispersant Corexit 9500, and the entire region is contaminated. The once pristine white beaches that have been subject to intense cleaning operations now contain the oil/dispersant contamination to an unknown depth. The economic impacts potentially exceed even the devastation of a major hurricane like Katrina, the adverse impacts on health and welfare of human populations are increasing every minute of every day and the long-term effects are potentially life threatening.

Over the Gulf from the Source in to shore there is virtually no sign of life anywhere in the vast areas covered by the dispersed oil and Corexit. This in a region previously abundant with life above and below the ocean's surface in all its diversity. For months now, scientists and environmental organizations have been asking where all the animals are. The reported numbers of marine animals lost from BP fall far short of the observed loss. The water has a heavy appearance and the slightly iridescent greenish yellow color that extends as far as the eye can see.



Wake of vessel near the Source through the toxic dispersant Corexit


Corexit and a thin line of orangish crude dispersing on the surface


The ocean covered in Corexit is green, and a line of crude being dispersed


On two, unrestricted day-long flights, on July 22nd and 23rd, we were fortunate enough to be on with official clearance. We saw a total of four distressed dolphins and three schools of rays on the surface. As the bottom of the ocean is covered with crude and only the oil on the surface broken up by dispersant, the rays are forced up to the surface in a futile attempt to find food and oxygen. Birds are scarce where one would usually find thousands upon thousands. The Gulf of Mexico from the Source into the shore is a giant kill zone.



Rays near the Source


In May, Mother Nature Network blogger Karl Burkart received a tip from an anonymous fisherman-turned-BP contractor in the form of a distressed text message, describing a near-apocalyptic sight near the location of the sunken Deepwater Horizon -- fish, dolphins, rays, squid, whales, and thousands of birds -- "as far as the eye can see," dead and dying. According to his statement, which was later confirmed by another report from an individual working in the Gulf, whale carcasses were being shipped to a highly guarded location where they were processed for disposal.

CitizenGlobal Gulf News Desk received photos that matched the report and are being published on Karl's blog today. Local fisherman in Alabama report sighting tremendous numbers of dolphins, sharks, and fish moving in towards shore as the initial waves of oil and dispersant approached in June. Many third- and fourth-generation fisherman declared emphatically that they had never seen or heard of any similar event in the past. Scores of animals were fleeing the leading edge of toxic dispersant mixed with oil. Those not either caught in the toxic mixture and killed out at sea, or fortunate enough to be out in safe water beyond the Source, died as the water closed in, and they were left no safe harbor. The numbers of birds, fish, turtles, and mammals killed by the use of Corexit will never be known as the evidence strongly suggests that BP worked with the Coast Guard, the Department of Homeland Security, the FAA, private security contractors, and local law enforcement, all of which cooperated to conceal the operations disposing of the animals from the media and the public.

The majority of the disposal operations were carried out under cover of darkness. The areas along the beaches and coastal Islands where the dead animals were collected were closed off by the U.S. Coast Guard. On shore, private contractors and local law enforcement officials kept off limits the areas where the remains of the dead animals were dumped, mainly at the Magnolia Springs landfill by Waste Management where armed guards controlled access. The nearby weigh station where the Waste Management trucks passed through with their cargoes was also restricted by at least one sheriff's deputies in a patrol car, 24/7.



Magnolia landfill during initial cleanup, courtesy of Press-Register, Connie Baggett


Robyn Hill, who was Beach Ambassador for the City of Gulf Shores until she became so ill she collapsed on the job one morning, was at a residential condominium property adjacent to the Gulf Shores beach when she smelled an overwhelming stench. She went to see where the odor was coming from and witnessed two contract workers dumping plastic bags full of dead birds and fish in a residential Waste Management dumpster, which was then protected by a security guard. Within five minutes, a Waste Management collection truck emptied the contents and the guard departed.



Photo by Robyn Hill


The oceans are empty, the skies tinged yellow by evaporating oil and toxic dispersant devoid of birds, dogs mysteriously have no fleas, and in an area usually besieged by mosquitoes, there is little need for repellent, and the usual trucks spraying are nowhere to be seen.

Shell Beach, in Hopedale, Louisiana, was one of the sites where carcasses of sperm whales were suspected of being destroyed. The operational end of the island was closed to unauthorized personnel and the airspace closed. The U.S. Coast Guard closed off all access from the Gulf. This picture shows the area as it was prepped to receive what were suspected to be whale carcasses for disposal.





Riki Ott, PhD, has been in the region for the past three months. A veteran of the Exxon Valdez spill and renowned marine toxicologist, Ott has documented numerous accounts of the devastating results from BP and the government's use of Corexit in the gulf. We spoke at length last week:

JC: There has been a great deal of discussion about the disappearance of the animals and the life in the ocean which seem to have vanished since this incident has occurred. What do you know about this?

RO: Well I have been down in the Gulf since May 3rd. It's pretty consistent what I have heard. First I heard from the offshore workers and the boat captains that were coming in and they would see windrows of dead things piled up on the barrier islands; turtles and birds and dolphins... whales...
JC: Whales?

RO: And whales. There would be stories from boat captains of offshore, we started calling death gyres, where the rips all the different currents sweep the oceans surface, that would be the collection points for hundreds of dolphins and sea turtles and birds and even whales floating. So we got four different times latitudes/longitude coordinates where (this was happening) but by the time we got to these lat/longs which is always a couple of days later there was nothing there. There was boom put around these areas to collect the animals and we know this happened at Exxon Valdez too. The rips are where the dead things collect. We also know from Exxon Valdez that only 1% in our case of the carcasses that floated off to sea actually made landfall in the Gulf of Alaska. I don't believe there have been any carcass drift studies down here that would give us some indication that when something does wash up on the beach what percentage it is of the whole. But we know that offshore there was an attempt by BP and the government to keep the animals from coming onshore in great numbers. The excuse was this was a health problem -- we don't want to create a health hazard. That would only be a good excuse if they kept tallies of all the numbers because all the numbers - all the animals - are evidence for federal court. We the people own these animals and they become evidence for damages to charge for BP. In Exxon Valdez the carcasses were kept under triple lock and key security until the natural resource damage assessment study was completed and that was 2 1/2 years after the spill. Then all the animals were burned but not until then.
So people offshore were reporting this first and then carcasses started making it onshore. Then I started hearing from people in Alabama a lot and the western half of Florida - a little bit in Mississippi - but mostly what was going on then there was an attempt to keep people off the beaches, cameras off the beaches. I was literally flying in a plane and the FAA boundary changed. It was offshore first with the barrier islands and all of a sudden it just hopped right to shore to Alabama that's where we were flying over and the pilot was just like - he couldn't believe it - he was like look at that and I didn't know what he was looking but then he points at the little red line which had all of sudden grown and he just looked at me and said the only reason that they have done this is so people can't see what is going on. And what that little red line meant was no cameras on shore and three days later the oil came onshore and the carcasses came onshore into Alabama.


JC: That immediately preceded the first wave coming onshore?

RO: Pretty much. That preceded the first wave. It was June 2nd when the line changed and the FAA boundaries increased. Then people would -- I mean you walk beaches here at night it's hot so people walk beaches -- and they would see carcasses like sea turtles, a bird, a little baby dolphin, and immediately they would go over to it and immediately people would approach them, don't touch that if you touch it you will be arrested and within fifteen minutes there would be a white unmarked van that would just come out of nowhere and in would go the carcass and off it would go.
They were white unmarked vans at first. We've since heard many other stories from truckers who are trucking carcasses in refrigerated vans to Mexico. Carcasses are just not showing up where they need to which is as body counts for essentially this war on the gulf.

JC: It sounds like the federal government and agencies that have been involved in this one way or another are working on behalf of BP and not the American people.

RO: What's going on on the beaches where people can at least get glimpses of what's happening -- I mean I've talked to people who have seen boats coming in towing dolphin carcasses and the boats have jockeyed to try to prevent the person with the camera from getting a picture. I've had people tell me they were walking the beach actually trying to deploy boom but along comes a BP rep and the Coast Guard in a boat, and the Coast Guard guy yells at the people to stop deploying -- particularly if it was alternative boom -- and then he goes away and comes back a few minutes later without the BP person and apologizes for behaving that way but he had to because there was a BP person on board.
JC: A Coast Guard official?

RO: A Coast Guard official apologized for his behavior because he had to a since BP person was on board. So it's pretty clear to the American, the people in the Gulf, that somehow it's turned not into our country anymore. That's the question. People are just stunned. We thought this was America. We didn't think we had to know exactly what our rights were, we just though we all lived them. Suddenly they're finding that unless they can site chapter and verse they are getting intimidated and backing down from these encounters with BP and/or the Coast Guard.
Drew Wheelan, with the American Birding Association, was on Grand Isle on the first of June. Drew said:

There were definitely dead birds washing up on the beach at that point. General contractors, not Fish and Wildlife officials, I contacted them and they said they were not conducting operations at that time. These contractors were cruising the high tide. On at least three occasions I saw these gators, 4-seat ATVs, going along the beach with hand-held spotlights looking for dead animals in the middle of the night. When I spoke with Felix Lopez at the US Fish and Wildlife Service, he told me they knew they were disappearing birds.



Dead Northern Gannet, reported but uncollected. Photo by Drew Wheelan


(Karen Harvey is a local who regularly walks the beaches along the Alabama Gulf shore.)

JC: In the course of walking the beaches since this incident happened, how many dead animals, birds did you find?

KH: Before they got the hazmat crews trained and before official people showed up with their vans I was finding -- within a seven-mile stretch -- and that's not a very long beach area, I was finding at least two turtles a day, mostly Ridleys. There was one logger head that was very large. My daughter's friends would call me and say, Miss Karen there's a turtle on the beach, you should come down and take a picture. People were aware they were dying, but we were being told that they were possibly hit by a fishing boat or pulled up with fish from the fishing boats but after the fishing boats were completely stopped the turtles were still on the beach. Now the beach is immaculate, no crabs, no birds -- nothing.
JC: Why do you think that is?

KH: Dispersant. It's the dispersant. And also when you clean a beach the way they clean our beach with -- I mean our beach never looked this pristine as far as junk and so forth -- when you clean a beach like that, you take away all the things that birds eat, and we did have some big fish kill areas where bunches of little tiny fish and so forth would wash up. And it makes you wonder.
JC: When was that?

KH: The last one as probably about a month ago.
JC: When you say a lot, quantify that.

KH: Thousands of little tiny fish, but they were cleaning the beach so they just cleaned the beach up, the hazmat workers.
 

The reason BP has gone to such great lengths to hide the devastation caused by the irresponsible drilling operations and blow out at Mississippi Canyon 252 is financial. Every death that results from the oil spill has a cash value, whether animal or human. Images of dead animals are difficult to spin in the media, and they resonate across all demographics. BP also has a strong interest in maintaining a business-as-usual model for the beach resort communities along the Gulf Coast that have been economically devastated and lost the majority of their annual revenue during the summer season of 2010. The only sharks circling the Gulf waters now are based on land.




.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 08:44:57 AM by JohnKoerner » Logged
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 08:40:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Nothing but stupidity and evil ...


My comments are on my new Blog


Just trying to keep people aware ... it's so easy to go back to "business as usual" ... just like the well-fed cattle we're groomed to be ...




.
Logged
Eric Myrvaagnes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7441



WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 09:19:51 AM »
ReplyReply

It's very sad. Thanks for posting this, Jack.
Logged

-Eric Myrvaagnes

http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my website. New images each season.
Mark Anderson
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 11:00:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the informative report.

I may lead a sheltered life up here in Minnesota, but this is the first real reportage I have seen of the potential/probable devastation to bird, mammal, and sea life in the dispersant area. I'm not surprised that BP and some sort of coalition of willing allies, both inside and outside of government, are attempting a vast cover up, and unfortunately I'm also not greatly surprised that the cover up seems to be fairly effective. These days if you can control the news for the first two weeks after a major disaster or event, often that is sufficient for that particular story to be replaced by the next big disaster to hit the major media outlets.

Any ideas for how to most effectively raise awareness of this debacle?

Logged

Fine art photo tours & workshops to China - http://toursabroadchina.com
Provokot
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 02:21:23 AM »
ReplyReply

What no one likes to mention is that a large portion of America's crude oil comes from the Niger Delta in Africa, where, year after year after year American  companies such as Exxon Mobil and other multinationals, such as Shell have caused massive pollution on a scale that is said to dwarf the "BP" oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

As someone who is very dedicated to the protection of the environment, I would like to see America and other countries' companies responsible paying for the clean-up of the near dead waters of the Niger Delta. I would also like to ask those countries what they intend to do to compensate the people of that area who have gained almost no benefit whatsoever from living in such a potentially wealthy area. I would also like to ask why those local voices such as the Late Ken Saro Wiwa ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa)  have been so brutally silenced when complaining about the corruption practiced by Nigeria's politicians and businessmen in relation to their dealings with foreign oil companies.

The Gulf of Mexico oil disaster is just the yellow head on the suppurating boil that is the oil industry. Whilst sympathising with the individuals who have suffered as a result of the Gulf oil spill, I find America's wailing and gnashing of teeth to be massively hypocritical.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8744393.stm

http://www.platformlondon.org/carbonweb/showitem.asp?article=73&parent=7&link=Y&gp=3

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/30/oil-spills-nigeria-niger-delta-shell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_the_Niger_Delta
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 06:38:30 AM by Provokot » Logged

JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 06:44:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the informative report.
I may lead a sheltered life up here in Minnesota, but this is the first real reportage I have seen of the potential/probable devastation to bird, mammal, and sea life in the dispersant area. I'm not surprised that BP and some sort of coalition of willing allies, both inside and outside of government, are attempting a vast cover up, and unfortunately I'm also not greatly surprised that the cover up seems to be fairly effective. These days if you can control the news for the first two weeks after a major disaster or event, often that is sufficient for that particular story to be replaced by the next big disaster to hit the major media outlets.
Any ideas for how to most effectively raise awareness of this debacle?


I think the most effective way to raise awareness is by not forgetting in your own mind and heart, and then by taking it to the next level by reminding other people. The only way to effect change is to have this sense of outrage spread, and have it reflected in the way you vote. By voting only for representatives who are likewise concerned with the environment may we take vicarious action where it counts. This is why I made this post, as I know thousands of people come here to this site and I want them to see this. You are welcome to cross-post it to any other forums you visit if you want. Facebook is becoming another powerful tool, actually, and that is another place to post this link and this message. It allows you to tell a friend, who tells two friends, who tell four friends, etc., etc.

I am glad that you feel motivated to doing something yourself. There are a lot of people getting really tired of this kind of thing. The world is getting tired of it too. There are a lot of ways to be proactive and have your voice heard, and I am sure you can think of ways too that I haven't thought of or mentioned. There are environmental documentaries like The 11th Hour that you can show your friends and family to get them thinking about this imminent sense of peril too.

We all have busy lives, but sitting around doing nothing isn't an option anymore. I think we all have to do our part, within whatever capabilities we have.

Thanks,

Jack
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 06:51:00 AM by JohnKoerner » Logged
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 07:23:35 AM »
ReplyReply

What no one likes to mention is that a large portion of America's crude oil comes from the Niger Delta in Africa, where, year after year after year American  companies such as Exxon Mobil and other multinationals, such as Shell have caused massive pollution on a scale that is said to dwarf the "BP" oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

I really don't wish to turn this into a "one country versus another" debate. I believe the effort to compare the magnitude of spills is likewise unproductive and divisive. I also don't think it matters whether the offending companies are British, American, or multinational ... so much as the fact the damage is being done is what matters most. Are we, who actually care about the environment, to be left quibbling amongst ourselves at such minutia ... or does true effectiveness at stopping this lie in decrying the polluting behavior regardless of which company (or which country) is causing it? I certainly believe the latter to be the wiser perspective and course of action.




As someone who is very dedicated to the protection of the environment, I would like to see America and other countries' companies responsible paying for the clean-up of the near dead waters of the Niger Delta. I would also like to ask those countries what they intend to do to compensate the people of that area who have gained almost no benefit whatsoever from living in such a potentially wealthy area. I would also like to ask why those local voices such as the Late Ken Saro Wiwa ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa)  have been so brutally silenced when complaining about the corruption practiced by Nigeria's politicians and businessmen in relation to their dealings with foreign oil companies.

Again, your attempt to blame "other countries" is divisive IMO. I think it is much more effective to discuss the offending companies and leave which "country" they're from out of the discussion. I applaud you for raising my awareness through the story of Ken Saro Wiwa, as I have never heard of him or of his plight. That is yet another story of evil and corruption from the oil companies which falls right in line with the story I originally posted. As I said in my blog, these oil companies are collective examples of evil, the phsychology of which I also discuss. Essentially, a wanton disregard for the rights and sanctity of other beings is the primary manifestation of evil, with the attempt to "cover-up" one's actions by any means necessary being the secondary manifestation of evil behavior. The story of Ken Saro Wiwa's unjust framing and public execution, funded by the oil companies, serves as a paradigm for evil.




The Gulf of Mexico oil disaster is just the yellow head on the suppurating boil that is the oil industry. Whilst sympathising with the individuals who have suffered as a result of the Gulf oil spill, I find America's wailing and gnashing of teeth to be massively hypocritical.

Again, your America-versus-the-world manner of discussion isn't very productive. As an American, I can assure you I do not want to see either pollution or injustice occur anywhere in the world. I can likewise assure you that I would be every bit as outraged had BP been an American company as I am that it happened to be a British company. Which country BP hails from isn't the issue. That the damage happened and an entire regional ecosystem has been devastated is the issue. I think you and I would be better served debating on the same side, as environmentalists, than we would quibbling over "which country" any offending companies might hail from. To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter what country any company hails from, the point is ALL companies need to be held to some standard and code of ethics. Quite frankly, given that there are alternative means of fuel and that the technology now exists to be rid of fossil fuels altogether, THAT goal (being rid of oil) should be each and every country's #1 priority, which is to free itself from the dependency on this world-destroying product and instead opt for cleaner and less damaging methods. Toward this end, I urge you to read the book Freedom From Oil, by David Sandalow, for we are in an age of technology where we CAN be completely free of oil, which is what every truly wise and good government would be striving for.





Thank you very much for providing these links. I will be sure to pass them on as best as I can.

Jack




.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:33:14 AM by JohnKoerner » Logged
Ben Rubinstein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1707


« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 08:48:10 AM »
ReplyReply

A million people killed in Darfur and this is the crime of the century?

Perspective people, perspective.
Logged

JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 09:08:30 AM »
ReplyReply

A million people killed in Darfur and this is the crime of the century?
Perspective people, perspective.


Yes, our world is more important than the people in it. That is the part we stupid human beings have to get straight.

The fact is, without any people, the world would still sustain all other life forms. Without the world, however, all life forms (including people) cease to exist.

So, yes, I agree with you, let us do keep things in perspective. Let us realize that man (and all his goals, efforts, and money) is NOT the most important thing in this world ... it's the life-sustaining world itself that is most important.

Jack




.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5711



WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 09:44:24 AM »
ReplyReply

Easy gang, remember: time heals all wounds and wounds all heels. The gulf will recover and BP will pay a dear price for its negligence.
Logged

HiltonP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134


WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 10:55:28 AM »
ReplyReply

I really don't wish to turn this into a "one country versus another" debate . . .

Again, your attempt to blame "other countries" is divisive IMO . . .

Again, your America-versus-the-world manner of discussion isn't very productive . . .

As an American, I can assure you I do not want to see either pollution or injustice occur anywhere in the world . . .
Then where have you been for the last 20+ years Jack while big oil has been turning the Niger Delta into a cesspit?
You called this incident the crime of the century. Some research will reveal that it is not even a blip on the radar.
Logged

Regards, HILTON
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 11:03:43 AM »
ReplyReply

Easy gang, remember: time heals all wounds and wounds all heels. The gulf will recover and BP will pay a dear price for its negligence.


I know that saying, as it's a popular catch-phrase, but unfortunately time does not heal all wounds.

In the rainforests, for example, when they get mowed down completely and are left to "grow back" ... they do NOT grow back. Instead, they are replaced with a desert. In another example, if I unloaded a full clip of .40-cal bullets in you, "time" wouldn't heal your wounds much, would it? A thousand other examples could be made.

So, thanks for your thoughts, but a one-liner catch phrase is an insufficient dismissal of what is in fact a very grave problem facing our world. It goes beyond the BP spill; it is a pandemic problem globally, and that is the continual destruction of our world, which itself is a manifestation of unbridled human overpopulation.

We have simply got to find sustainable, non-polluting ways to burn energy ... and we have got to stop reproducing exponentially ... rather than continuously ruining our world by oil drilling and mowing-down it's unspoiled resources to make room for more consumers. Time will NOT heal all of the damage done to this world, and at some point our time for "making things right" will have run out.

Jask
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 11:15:44 AM by JohnKoerner » Logged
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 11:11:19 AM »
ReplyReply

Then where have you been for the last 20+ years Jack while big oil has been turning the Niger Delta into a cesspit?
You called this incident the crime of the century. Some research will reveal that it is not even a blip on the radar.

Like many people, I have been going along "business as usual" ... until such an event struck close to home. The truth is, where was anyone before they decided to take action? At some point, everyone needs to wake up. That anyone did not wake up and "act sooner" to address some real problems is a fool's way to debate the severity of this subject. Saying that this spill isn't even a blip on the radar is likewise sophomoric.

The BP oil spill was/is a catastrophe, plain and simple. That there have been other environmental catastrophes as big or bigger as the BP catastrophe shouldn't undermine the message I am trying to spread; it should only reinforce the message. Reducing these problems to one-liners (or 3-liners) on a message board is non-thinking way to address these problems.

I don't believe any honest person can call any of these listed events "minor" ... and when added together they form a major and continuous pandemic threat to the future.

I hope we all can agree on that,

Jack
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 11:17:33 AM by JohnKoerner » Logged
Ben Rubinstein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1707


« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 11:21:52 AM »
ReplyReply


Yes, our world is more important than the people in it. That is the part we stupid human beings have to get straight.

The fact is, without any people, the world would still sustain all other life forms. Without the world, however, all life forms (including people) cease to exist.

So, yes, I agree with you, let us do keep things in perspective. Let us realize that man (and all his goals, efforts, and money) is NOT the most important thing in this world ... it's the life-sustaining world itself that is most important.

Jack




.

What a sick individual.
Logged

Chris Sanderson
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1830



« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 11:24:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Disagreements that lead to personal attacks will close the topic.
Logged

Christopher Sanderson
The Luminous-Landscape
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2010, 11:28:32 AM »
ReplyReply

Disagreements that lead to personal attacks will close the topic.


Hi Chris;

I don't think this topic should be closed, perhaps just the perpetrator's post removed.

I think the future of our world and environment is a worthy topic to discuss, but it is an emotional topic. Ben's comments are fine with me, they only show the fact he has no rebuttal to what I said and is therefore reduced to an emotional response. But hey, if Ben believes people are more important than the world which allows them to live, then he is entitled to his opinion.

I do agree that personal attacks are not necessary, but I am a big boy and can handle it Cool

Thanks,

Jack
Logged
Provokot
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


WWW
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 11:36:10 AM »
ReplyReply

Jack, my point is, the fuss and the outrage that media-rich America (or lets just say developed countries) can make, that the whole world hears, when an environmental disaster happens on their own doorstep needs to be balanced with equal fuss and outrage when they (and other countries) create or participate in the creation of a much, much worse disaster in a poorer, less media-rich country, which doesn't have the voice to scream its pain to the world. The loser is still the environment. And the people who depend on that environment.

The Gulf of Mexico disaster is the tip of the iceberg.  America's powerful mainstream media can continue to rage against BP (hell everyone needs a named villain), but it must equally rage against ALL oil companies for the horror they have created in the Niger delta. To stay silent is a far greater crime than the Crime of the Century you referred to.

If I came across as divisive, I'm sorry, but there IS an ugly truth that many in the developed world either don't know about, or don't want to hear about: The Gulf of Mexico disaster is a mere drop in the ocean (no pun intended) in the grand scheme of putting cheap fuel in gas-guzzling, Co2 belching cars, and filling our insatiable appetites for plastics and other oil-derived compounds. (I will buy Freedom From Oil, by David Sandalow as you recommended. Thanks :-))

As someone who was born and raised in Africa and who has seen first-hand the obscene greed, bribery, corruption and corporate malpractices by multinationals that go hand in glove with mineral exploitation in Africa, I can say confidently and comfortably that the developed world owes Africa, its people and environment much, much more than it could ever possibly repay.

Finally, Jack, given some of the replies to this topic, I will say thank you for raising this debate, and do lets keep on talking like grown-ups!

Logged

Ben Rubinstein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1707


« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 11:46:57 AM »
ReplyReply


Hi Chris;

I don't think this topic should be closed, perhaps just the perpetrator's post removed.

I think the future of our world and environment is a worthy topic to discuss, but it is an emotional topic. Ben's comments are fine with me, they only show the fact he has no rebuttal to what I said and is therefore reduced to an emotional response. But hey, if Ben believes people are more important than the world which allows them to live, then he is entitled to his opinion.

I do agree that personal attacks are not necessary, but I am a big boy and can handle it Cool

Thanks,

Jack

I believe that when an individual worships nature to the extent that repairable damage to inanimate objects is of more concern than the death of a million individuals that they have betrayed their species entirely.
Logged

JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 11:47:34 AM »
ReplyReply

What a sick individual.

Hi Ben;

Could you please elaborate on why you feel I am a sick individual for wanting to raise awareness about the global deforestation and sterilization of our world?

You seem to be a man of few words. Does this mean you are therefore a man with few thoughts, or are you just pressed for time? You wrote two lines last visit and just one line this visit.

I would like to understand your perspective on why you place "people" on a pedestal higher in importance than the world which allows them (nay, all of life itself) to exist. I would be happy to debate this subject, civilly and intelligently, with you anytime you are emotionally and intellectually ready to do so.

Thanks for your time,

Jack


EDIT:
I believe that when an individual worships nature to the extent that repairable damage to inanimate objects is of more concern than the death of a million individuals that they have betrayed their species entirely.

You squeezed-out one more line as I was typing. Thank you for the effort. Could you please explain why you think man is more important than the "nature" which allows him to survive? Also, you forgot to mention the hundreds of millions of life other forms that died out in the gulf. Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 12:07:08 PM by JohnKoerner » Logged
JohnKoerner
Guest
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2010, 12:04:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Jack, my point is, the fuss and the outrage that media-rich America (or lets just say developed countries) can make, that the whole world hears, when an environmental disaster happens on their own doorstep needs to be balanced with equal fuss and outrage when they (and other countries) create or participate in the creation of a much, much worse disaster in a poorer, less media-rich country, which doesn't have the voice to scream its pain to the world. The loser is still the environment. And the people who depend on that environment.

The Gulf of Mexico disaster is the tip of the iceberg.  America's powerful mainstream media can continue to rage against BP (hell everyone needs a named villain), but it must equally rage against ALL oil companies for the horror they have created in the Niger delta. To stay silent is a far greater crime than the Crime of the Century you referred to.

If I came across as divisive, I'm sorry, but there IS an ugly truth that many in the developed world either don't know about, or don't want to hear about: The Gulf of Mexico disaster is a mere drop in the ocean (no pun intended) in the grand scheme of putting cheap fuel in gas-guzzling, Co2 belching cars, and filling our insatiable appetites for plastics and other oil-derived compounds. (I will buy Freedom From Oil, by David Sandalow as you recommended. Thanks :-))

As someone who was born and raised in Africa and who has seen first-hand the obscene greed, bribery, corruption and corporate malpractices by multinationals that go hand in glove with mineral exploitation in Africa, I can say confidently and comfortably that the developed world owes Africa, its people and environment much, much more than it could ever possibly repay.

Finally, Jack, given some of the replies to this topic, I will say thank you for raising this debate, and do lets keep on talking like grown-ups!




Great post and I do understand how you'd have bad feelings with your background, but please be assured that my sentiments are not for "America only," but of the world at large. As I mentioned previously, sometimes it takes events such as these to happen close to home to "wake us up." This does not mean I feel African concerns are of less importance than American; it only means I was completely oblivious to those realities. Had I experienced what you have seen, I am sure I would feel as you do.

By the way, my title "Crime of the Century" was in fact the title of the newspaper article. I sure didn't mean to imply that other tragedies to other areas are somehow less important.

Thanks again for your contributions, and cheers from across the globe!

Jack
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad