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Author Topic: Any worthwhile MF innovation to be expected at Kina?  (Read 17300 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2010, 02:00:26 PM »
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Altough this is impressive technology that might be useful in extreme situations, we´ve had this before: studio strobes (including the fastest packs like Pro8 or Bron Scoro) set to an average power from lets assume about 800Ws will have a longer flash duration than 1/1600s, so you loose a lot of the light emitted by simply cutting the time.

Cheers, Ulf
[/quote]

Exactly.   

We shoot a lot of frozen moments with people and nothing freezes an image like a short flash duration and nothing gives you a short duration like cutting the power.

What really is needed is 400 to 800 iso very clean and then you can run most packs or monoblocs at lower power and freeze it solid and unless you have a lot of ambient light kicking around, the flash sync is irrelevant.

BC
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2010, 02:14:20 PM »
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What really is needed is 400 to 800 iso very clean and then you can run most packs or monoblocs at lower power and freeze it solid and unless you have a lot of ambient light kicking around, the flash sync is irrelevant.

Agreed 100%.

Another way of sayings that is "when you have a lot of ambient light kicking around, the flash sync speed is critical" :-).

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bcooter
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« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2010, 02:24:22 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Agreed 100%.

Another way of sayings that is "when you have a lot of ambient light kicking around, the flash sync speed is critical" :-).



It depends on how you work, but I don't think I've ever been in a situation where flash was involved and we needed to freeze a moment that we hadn't planned on limiting the ambient light anyway.  

How many people that buy a $30,000, to $40,000 camera don't come prepared for their creative brief?

It's kind of a double edged sword.  You can raise the power and get longer durations and I guess with your system sync at 1/1600th but overall your still cutting into the flash, or just lower the power and get a shorter flash duration which probably works out about even.

Or you can buy the new profoto 8's though they have a very heavy draw from the mains and cost more than a space shot.  Actually I think most of the pro 8 use is from rentals.

Regardless, it's nice that phase has upped the sync under certain situations, but  a bigger innovation would be clean higher iso, as that covers a lot more territory and is much more economical for the whole production.

When it comes to buying and/or renting and how it impacts the production, there is "want" and there is "must have".   To freeze action with flash "must have" is a short duration.

We all like new equipment, we all like fun stuff, but now, well it has it fall into the must have category to open a wallet.

BC
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 02:30:27 PM by bcooter » Logged
UlfKrentz
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« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2010, 02:39:49 PM »
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Agreed 100%.

Another way of sayings that is "when you have a lot of ambient light kicking around, the flash sync speed is critical" :-).



in this case I´d prefer 25ASA...
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gss
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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2010, 03:12:21 PM »
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... and nothing gives you a short duration like cutting the power.

I'm not sure I buy this statement.  It is certainly true that cutting power to flashes using IGBT circuits will shorten the duration, but I think it is not true of "normal" studio strobes.
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« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2010, 03:53:12 PM »
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I'm not sure I buy this statement.  It is certainly true that cutting power to flashes using IGBT circuits will shorten the duration, but I think it is not true of "normal" studio strobes.

It's true of the Profoto Acute, Acute-B, D4, Compacts, Pro-7, Pro-8 for sure.

Don't know as much about other brand's flash durations.
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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2010, 03:57:28 PM »
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in this case I´d prefer 25ASA...

Lower ISO sure helps in some cases. Of course at lower ISO you need more power to your packs forany given aperture. Which if you're trying to do very fast freezing of motion then requires you to turn up your pack power (or add additional packs or move the light closer etc) which increases flash duration.

Best option [bias alert!] is to have a back/body/light/transmitter system that has a wide range of sub-ISO-100 options (which aren't fake settings like Canon's ISO50) with a leaf shutter system that allows down to 1/1600th sync without losing light. Then you can do just about anything. Like any of the Aptus-II line and the P40+ / P65+ on a DF body.
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2010, 03:04:14 AM »
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Actually I never spoke of freezing motion, I would try to get rid of the ambient light with the shutter speed. Extreme short exposure times will limit the use of strobes if a bit of power is needed. It might be nice to have, but I´ll second BC, absolutely no must have, I am sure, until now I have never used a shorter shutter speed than 1/320s with my H series Blad. Freezing motion with strobes is achieved using short flash duration.

Regarding shorter flash duration when dialing down power, a rule of thumb could be, if your strobe is color corrected within its power range it will have shorter flash duration with less power. You don´t necessarily need an IGBT controlled flash cut off (Broncolor Scoro and Grafit) for that, the other way is not using all of the capacitors (Profoto and others) "Old classical" designs with 3 or 4 stops of variation will also vary in color temp and even tend to have a longer flash duration at lower power. As a photographer it is good to know your equipment and its limits.

Curious what I might discover this time at Kina...

Cheers, Ulf
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2010, 07:34:41 AM »
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Freezing motion with strobes is achieved using short flash duration.

Freezing motion with strobes is achieved by BOTH
- using short flash duration to expose subject sharply
- reducing ambient light exposure enough to avoid ghosting

Of course in a studio you can "reduce ambient light exposure" by turning the lights off (or far down relative to your shooting aperture/ISO). Outdoors you can only "reduce ambient light exposure" by lowering camera ISO, stopping down, or reducing shutter speed.

Trust me I'm not saying many shots at all would require 1/1600 sync speed - we've lived with 1/400-1/800 for a while. But I'm sure we can all agree that raising a technical limitation like that reduces the chance that your creative intention will be limited by a camera specification.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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narikin
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« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2010, 08:28:20 AM »
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Great they have built-in tripod mounts.

exactly - and you know what this means: you can lock the lens, and the shifting movement will move the body.  so... you can stitch perfectly!

It's a very simple lens design - just 6 elements, so shouldn't be SO expensive. ha ha.

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« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2010, 09:12:53 AM »
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Doug,

I see what you mean, and of course you are right. What I originally tried to say is: Be prepared that if you use a (slow) strobe and you would need for example 1600Ws to light your subject to achieve the desired aperture the use of the fast shutter speed will cut your flash and the whole system might not perform the way you intended.
Regardless, this is an impressive technology and might be helpful for some situations. Believe me, I am more than happy to be able to use the advanced features of todays cameras and lighting equipment, they are pushing boundaries to a complete different level. But still, you have to know their limitations Wink

Cheers, Ulf
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2010, 09:25:15 AM »
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Doug,

I see what you mean, and of course you are right. What I originally tried to say is: Be prepared that if you use a (slow) strobe and you would need for example 1600Ws to light your subject to achieve the desired aperture the use of the fast shutter speed will cut your flash and the whole system might not perform the way you intended.
Regardless, this is an impressive technology and might be helpful for some situations. Believe me, I am more than happy to be able to use the advanced features of todays cameras and lighting equipment, they are pushing boundaries to a complete different level. But still, you have to know their limitations Wink

Cheers, Ulf
Maybe you fellas can create a new topic post for this.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 09:27:51 AM by JonathanBenoit » Logged

Mr. Rib
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« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2010, 11:22:53 AM »
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As I recall Adrew Zuckerman's 'frozen' shots (the water baloon, milk, etc) were shot with a hasselblad, 1/800. These were sharp, no smudging / smoothness caused by motion. I wonder what 1/1600 could be used for..
overkill?
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paul_jones
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« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2010, 02:25:22 PM »
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As I recall Adrew Zuckerman's 'frozen' shots (the water baloon, milk, etc) were shot with a hasselblad, 1/800. These were sharp, no smudging / smoothness caused by motion. I wonder what 1/1600 could be used for..
overkill?

these shots wouldn't have had ambient light as a factor (ie over powered or just a dark room). so shutter doesnt matter as it only controls ambient.

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« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2010, 02:44:05 PM »
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News from Alpa :

NEW  CAMERAS & ACCESSORIES

ALPA 12 STC
The all new ALPA 12 STC (Stitching/Shift Travel Compact) is the youngest member of the ALPA 12 family. It will set the benchmark for compact technical cameras - especially in the class of truly handheldable technical cameras not only for tripod use. The ALPA 12 STC is of course prepared for digital use (digital backs of up to 60 MP at the moment) and with some rollfilm backs up to 6x9.

The ALPA 12 STC allows the travelling photographer free hand operation as well as fast, convenient and reliable stitching and shifting (geared and free-wheeling) on tripod. As all other ALPA 12 models the STC is completely integrated in the modular and extensive ALPA 12 platform. All movements got realised with roller-bearings - not the cheapest but defintively the most precise, stable and long lasting way.

ALPA Sync Release
All digital backs need a synchronisation between the shutter and the back. In addition some Phase One and Hasselblad devices need a "wake-up" signal before the exposure. ALPA offers with the ALPA Sync Release a large and unique selection of synchronisation solutions - for the first time really optimal for tripod and freehand use.

ALPA HPF High Precision Focusing Rings
Certain photographic applications need an extremely differentiated scale focusing - e.g. when using a laser distance meter. ALPA offers with the ALPA HPF rings a unique and retrofittable solution for these requirements which is - in contrast to other offerings - truly usable in freehand operation.

ALPA iPhone® holder
The new ALPA iPhone® holder allows the technophile photographers using their iPhone® 3/4 and iPod touch®  (later also others) a secure and firm mounting of their device on top of an ALPA. Four positions are available:
horizontal, symmetric
horizontal, minimum prallax
vertical, symmetric
vertical, minimum parallax
Possible applications are...

electronic viewfinder (ALPA recommends apps like "Viewefinde Pro" or "ProCamera")
as GPS logger
as control unit for electronical shutters and the like
as digitale notepad
other apps are under development
 
ALPA Lens Corrector (reloaded)
ALPA will release new distortion correction profiles of over 90 third party lenses/focal lengths for the all free ALPA Lens Corrector. This Photoshop® plug-in allows the distortion correction at it's best including movements. Why for free? Just because we love what we are doing! With first priority there will be an update containing the new ALPA lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider-Kreuznach and the most common digital backs plus various lenses of 3rd party manufacturers for dSLRs and Micro 4/3 cameras.


The iPod touch/Phone/Pad seem to be the new indispensable object to the photographers!

PdF


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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2010, 03:16:02 PM »
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As I recall Adrew Zuckerman's 'frozen' shots (the water baloon, milk, etc) were shot with a hasselblad, 1/800. These were sharp, no smudging / smoothness caused by motion. I wonder what 1/1600 could be used for..
overkill?

Yes in fact I did a series like that with medium format film with a shutter speed of 8" so that I could manually trigger the flash during the exposure. However, this only works if you can control the ambient light (e.g. turn off the modeling lights and room lights and block out the windows).

Try to freeze fast action during the day and shutter speed at which your flash will sync at full power becomes very important.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 03:18:57 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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BJL
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« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2010, 04:49:06 PM »
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News from Alpa :

NEW  CAMERAS & ACCESSORIES
ALPA iPhone® holder
The new ALPA iPhone® holder allows the technophile photographers using their iPhone® 3/4 and iPod touch®  (later also others) a secure and firm mounting of their device on top of an ALPA.

The iPod touch/Phone/Pad seem to be the new indispensable object to the photographers!
Thanks ... pity it does not hold an iPad, yet. But my vision of using an iPad and a black cloth to recreate the 8x10 view camera experience gets closer ...
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PdF
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« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2010, 08:12:51 AM »
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NEWS FROM RODENSTOCK : HR Digaron-W 4/32mm, electronic shutter (same as Sinar !!), filters.

Here

PdF
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PdF
PdF
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« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2010, 08:36:02 AM »
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NEWS FROM ARCA-SWISS :

There

PdF

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PdF
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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2010, 08:47:23 AM »
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NEWS FROM LINHOF (Fully inspired by Arca !) :

Somewhere else

PdF
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