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Author Topic: Protective spray on baryta papers  (Read 5956 times)
Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2010, 08:16:46 AM »
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Yes, but they where your friends and colleagues. I understand it's feasible, especially if you give them good instruction as you and Ernst do. But what about paying customers, I mean high price customers(, maybe even very high  Wink).
If I had high price customers (even a few moderate paying customers would be welcome), I would ship matted and framed prints! Grin  I have an Epson 3880 printer so I really don't go beyond 13x19 prints and that size of paper is pretty resilient.  It's easy enough for you to test decurling at home with a test print or two.  I think you will find that it works out quite well.  In addition, any capable framer will insure that the print is flattened correctly prior to framing.
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2010, 08:24:38 AM »
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If I had high price customers (even a few moderate paying customers would be welcome), I would ship matted and framed prints! Grin 

Well, most of th time they have their interior designers, and or their wifes wanting/having to take car of that.

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I have an Epson 3880 printer so I really don't go beyond 13x19 prints and that size of paper is pretty resilient.

Me too, but I go up to 16x20 usually on it.  The rest goes to a 44" Epson. 

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[...]   In addition, any capable framer will insure that the print is flattened correctly prior to framing.

Oh thank you! That's the key phrase I was waiting for! With your permission, I'll quote you from now on in my material Wink " Any capable framer will insure that the print is flattend prior to framing". I will even add: DO NOT try to do it yourself!

regards

nino
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2010, 09:05:27 AM »
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Well that's exactly what I meant.

Ernst, aren't you afraid of that? What is your view on this?

regards
nino

I tend to forget that you are working within the sizes a 3800 can handle. With a 44" printer it gets much more expensive to ship them flat and with enough protection. Given enough large prints I drive to my customer, prints stacked on a pallet. Otherwise they are rolled as described, already reversed to the curl direction they had on the virgin inkjet paper roll so the chance they are curled at arrival is already more reduced. Rolling with a paper sheet tail on a 4 to 6"core isn't that difficult and that core diameter is already giving less curl memory. The customer gets the instruction. The framer has his own responsibilities and will know the decurl trick anyway. At least the one that receives the prints on roll from me never complained on the shipping method.




met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

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Nino Loss
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2010, 09:15:35 AM »
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[...] Otherwise they are rolled as described, already reversed to the curl direction they had on the virgin inkjet paper roll so the chance they are curled at arrival is already more reduced. [...]

That is indeed a very useful and important addition to your instructions that you just gave me! For the very large prints, I'll roll them up against the original curl. Thank you again!

regards
nino
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2010, 09:30:53 AM »
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I tend to forget that you are working within the sizes a 3800 can handle. With a 44" printer it gets much more expensive to ship them flat and with enough protection. Given enough large prints I drive to my customer, prints stacked on a pallet. Otherwise they are rolled as described, already reversed to the curl direction they had on the virgin inkjet paper roll so the chance they are curled at arrival is already more reduced. Rolling with a paper sheet tail on a 4 to 6"core isn't that difficult and that core diameter is already giving less curl memory. The customer gets the instruction. The framer has his own responsibilities and will know the decurl trick anyway. At least the one that receives the prints on roll from me never complained on the shipping method.


True enough with the larger prints, shipping something flat larger than 30x20 is impractical to a certain extent, even 20x30 is a hassle. I have plenty of stiff flat cardboard at no cost to me, and as long as my supply remains free of charge, I'll stick with shipping flat. For something larger than 30x20, I have yet to cross that bridge, but will certainly keep the roll-up option open. Thank you for the details.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2010, 06:37:27 PM »
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More often I use a UV blocking varnish/coating, MSA by Golden. Not as a spray, but in liquid form applied with a roller. With minimal practice it is possible to do thick and perfectly even coatings. In my opinion, they have the advantage of "encapsulating" the ink and maybe, of providing a thick enough layer of UV blocking by the same token.

Nino, would you mind describing your coating process / methodology?

Terry.
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MikeFletcher
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2010, 11:35:26 AM »
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I use the Hahnemuehle Protective Spray and it doesnt seem to work at all with real baryta based inkjet papers. For example while everything works how it should with Epson Traditional Photo (Ex. Fiber), Canson Infinity Baryta doesnt seem to respond to the protective spray at all. After spraying and drying it just stays on the surface of the print and leaves many ugly spots everywhere, eg you can clearly follow where you sprayed, while spraying on EEF comes out perfectly, you would never guess some kind of coating got applied to it.
I still love the effect of the spray on the epson paper. I print "poster" kind of images which are never framed and these papers are seriously fragile, i wouldnt even dare to sell them without somekind of protection. If you are framing anyway and i dont really see the need for a protective coating. If anyone knows of a coating that works on the Canson please let me know  Grin
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 11:42:51 AM by MikeFletcher » Logged
MHMG
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2010, 04:30:57 PM »
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I use the Hahnemuehle Protective Spray and it doesnt seem to work at all with real baryta based inkjet papers. For example while everything works how it should with Epson Traditional Photo (Ex. Fiber), Canson Infinity Baryta doesnt seem to respond to the protective spray at all. After spraying and drying it just stays on the surface of the print and leaves many ugly spots everywhere, eg you can clearly follow where you sprayed, while spraying on EEF comes out perfectly, you would never guess some kind of coating got applied to it.

Mike, try holding the can about 10-12 inches from the surface (positioned almost vertically), using relatively heavy overlapping strokes, and running slow enough to get a "wet look" but not so slow as to get runs in the coating. I've finished the Canson Platine (a baryta paper) quite successfully with HN protective spray. I also tried a small test sample of the Canson Baryta Photographique with Premier Print shield (very similar if not in fact the same product as HN protective spray) with good results. But even applying with a solid coat, one still needs a minimum of two coats total because some of these papers really suck up the spray in the media white and image highlight areas. I believe I've seen the effect you are describing if trying to apply a light or medium spray coat. IGFS is probably the champion at sucking up gloss optimizers and protective sprays, but the Canson "traditional photo" papers aren't far behind!

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2010, 11:16:18 PM »
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It seems that we are quite a few trying to finally free our prints from the glass  Smiley.  

Mike,

Just search for videos on "Print shield" and all the other brands, and very helpful instructional videos will show up. Golden paint Web site has very good ones on their MSA varnish, both in spray and liquid (I have no relation what so ever to this brand, it just happens to be the only liquid print coating with an additional UV blocking effect available in Tel Aviv. I would very much like to  be proven wrong on that one!). I learned it from those videos and from my experience with coating regular oil paintings on canvas. You will need to experiment with each paper and ink combination. In my experience there is no two papers alike. Some I find very easy, like the wonderful Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. I simply can't do anything wrong with it (Just why must it be so incredibly expensive!?). Some are terribly difficult for me, like my favorite, the Canson Platine. The problem with the Canson Platine seams to be that it soaks up unevenly the coating liquid, like Golden MSA for example, when it is applied thickly as a first coating, creating little whole-like darker spots all over. When pre-coated lightly with any kind of varnish spray, I found that you do not need to use any particular brand, just do it lightly. After that sealing one might have to finish this sealing with a second light coat, that's what I have to do with the Platine. Then in the end, I apply with a roller, one or two very thick coats of MSA varnish, which exists in Gloss, Satin, and Mat and can be mixed to create any degree of gloss in between. While printing, I compensate for the general darkening of tones created by the gloss. In the future, as mentioned, I want to create a profile for that final result. Matt, on the other hand, makes everything lighter.


kind regards

nino
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 01:04:52 AM by Nino Loss » Logged
Nino Loss
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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2010, 11:24:08 PM »
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Mike, try holding the can about 10-12 inches from the surface (positioned almost vertically), using relatively heavy overlapping strokes, and running slow enough to get a "wet look" but not so slow as to get runs in the coating. I've finished the Canson Platine (a baryta paper) quite successfully with HN protective spray. I also tried a small test sample of the Canson Baryta Photographique with Premier Print shield (very similar if not in fact the same product as HN protective spray) with good results. But even applying with a solid coat, one still needs a minimum of two coats total because some of these papers really suck up the spray in the media white and image highlight areas. I believe I've seen the effect you are describing if trying to apply a light or medium spray coat. IGFS is probably the champion at sucking up gloss optimizers and protective sprays, but the Canson "traditional photo" papers aren't far behind!

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark,

I find this spraying technique very difficult for my images from the 44" and 60" printer. What do you do in regard to that?!

cheers
nino
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2010, 12:08:06 AM »
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Do you work on loose or already, in some way, mounted prints? IMO for small prints, up to 17"wide, it does not matter. For large 44" and very large up to 60"  prints, I simply find it easier to handle them (turn and move them around), when they are already stiffer because of the mounting. So I can't talk about warping and bucklig in this regard. That said, my experience covers only my two  papers that I use for big archival prints, Canson Platine and the outrageously expensive  and inconsistent HM PR Baryta. (For things not in contact with light I use Harman Gloss FB AL Warmtone, because for me, it has the nicest of all surfaces. One day there will hopefully be such a surface for an archival cotton rag). Otherwise, for best punch and gamut, I use Epson Semi-gloss and even Semimatte without coating and glass (Yes, and one day, when we finally will get rid of all these marketing trends and fashions, like the horrible, make my photo look like cr@# canvases and matte papers Grin, there will hopefully be an RC-like paper that is perceived as archival enough). Just put up a "Do not touch!"-sign in the gallery Wink
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MHMG
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2010, 06:14:25 AM »
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Mark,

I find this spraying technique very difficult for my images from the 44" and 60" printer. What do you do in regard to that?!

cheers
nino

I must confess I haven't attempted to coat prints larger than 17x22 with spray products like HN Protective Spray or Premier Print Shield.  It seems to me that to routinely overcoat any significant quantity of large prints one would really need to set up a more professional spray booth and work with HVLP spray guns or the like. I also haven't tried the roller techniques. Some people appear to have good luck with that method while others find it very difficult to achieve complete coverage without any obvious roller marks. The one thing going for the non-aqueous solvent sprays like Print Shield is that they can produce thin conformal coats. The examples I see from roller coating or by the water-based acrylics that one dilutes from a can in order to spray is that they tend to work best on canvas where the thicker look of the varnish often adds and doesn't detract from the visual aesthetic of the print surface.  All in all, post coating treatments add a lot of yield problems to an already challenging printmaking art! Yet, the microporous nature of inkjet media is unlike any other historic print process I can think of. It begs to be sealed with an overcoat of some kind in order to achieve reasonable surface durability and reduce fading and.or discoloration over time caused by light, air-pollutants, and humidity.

Some of the mottling being discussed in this thread when trying to overcoat various papers may also be related to fundamental differences in ink chemistry as well. I mainly print on a Canon iPF8100. Thermal print head technology calls for different solvent formulations than is used in ink made for Epson piezo print head technology, so there may be some overcoat related issues of compatibility arising from these ink solvent differences as the final spray goes down over retained ink solvents in the print. No end of craft related experimentation in sight for serious inkjet printmakers Smiley
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Nino Loss
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« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2010, 01:43:41 PM »
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Mottling is the word I was looking for, Mark!

Dan Berg, reminded me just now in an other thread (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=45841.msg384134#msg384134) of "ClearJet" coating. So I checked it out and it seams as if I could get hold of it here. I want to give it a try. It is cheaper and appears to be easier on the paper chemically. Does anyone have  experience wit ClearJet and cotton rag papers/baryta papers? The promises made on their Webpage look great: http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearjet.asp

kind regards

nino
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2010, 02:02:08 PM »
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nino,

give me a call and I can help you with ClearStar products (ClearJet - solvent based and ClearShield - water based)
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2010, 02:29:56 PM »
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nino,

give me a call and I can help you with ClearStar products (ClearJet - solvent based and ClearShield - water based)

Thank you Randy that offer (But I am based in outer space, on a tiny very remote planet called Tel Aviv)!

I am printing on 3880, 9900 and 11880, where the ink is water based, right? So that needs a solvent based coating, like ClearJet, if I understood correctly?!

Hopefully the local distributor will deliver a liquid coating suitable for HM PR Baryta and CIFA Platine. Would that be the Fin Art series made for canvas, or the regular one?

kind regards

nino
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