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Author Topic: Why Hasselblad CF-22 (AKA CF-132) Used Digital Back So Rare  (Read 6513 times)
EinstStein
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« on: September 11, 2010, 02:03:24 AM »
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I want to buy a used 22MP digital back from Hasselblad, the CF-22 or Cf-132. But it almost never showed up anywhere, including Ebay.
Phase P25/P25+ and Leaf Aptus II 22 are easy to spot, but most of them are either for Mamiya or Hasselblad H.
The only often seen DB for V is the old Ixpress 96. I don;t like it, I don't like the digital bank.
The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.

Why a used CF-22 or used digital back for Hasselblad V is so rare?
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Dustbak
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 03:24:18 AM »
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It is a back not well known. This line came in between the Imacon backs and the H2/3D series. Most people went for the integrated series is my guess. There are also more CF39's available than CF22's. If you can try getting a CF39 instead of a CF22. You will have ISO800 vs ISO400, 64sec's vs 32sec's exposure, less moire and more resolution naturally. Pricewise the 2 will not be far apart probably.

I had a CF39 for sale but not anymore. The Pro Centre in London had several for sale for pretty decent prices with support and a 6month warranty if I am not mistaken.
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studioseven
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 02:48:13 PM »
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The conspiracy theorist in me hypothesis that most bacsk of that generation will have been upgraded through dealer and trade-in offers.

So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again. The returned units are probably used to support service and support obligations but more likely they are just dumped so they can never reach the secondhand market.
Keeping new prices suitably high and people who would settle for the older backs wanting and saving for the low end offerings.

I recently sold my 132C and the interest was crazy given it's vintage.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 03:11:37 PM »
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The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.


FWIW I have an ixpress unit and the HD has worked perfectly for 8 or so years, I guess the HD will fail at some point which is why I have a spare Image bank, (plus the internal drive is not hard to replace).

There is a bunch of stuff for sale here:

http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html

Nick-T
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EinstStein
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 06:49:34 PM »
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I think you are very correct. Both Phase and Hasselblad have very high value trading program. This helps to maintain the new digital back's price tag. I suspect, at the same time, this actually also push down the medium format's market size. From what I know, a lot of wedding professional photographer have moved to 35mm FF DSLR. Partly due to 35mm FF DSLR's  boosted capability, but also largely due to MFDB's high price tag.

It seems Leaf (now owned by Phase) is pushing the price down to fight against the tide. The recent released Leaf 22MP is priced ~$9000. Good sign to compete against the very high end Nikon or Canon DSLR. Alas, it might be too late. Hope not. I'm watching if MFDB used market would come up.
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 08:32:17 PM »
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It seems Leaf (now owned by Phase) is pushing the price down to fight against the tide. The recent released Leaf 22MP is priced ~$9000. Good sign to compete against the very high end Nikon or Canon DSLR. Alas, it might be too late. Hope not. I'm watching if MFDB used market would come up.

It was smart of Leaf to have a "nearly" full frame 22mp option where no one else is offering one. I think there is a market for it. For most of us, 22 mp is more than enough resolution and going forward I hope there is more focus on all other aspects of DB IQ besides megapixels.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 10:40:00 PM »
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The simplest reason Hasselblad CF-22 digital backs are rare is that relatively few were sold, compared to H2D/H3D solutions (and Leaf Aptus 22/54-S and Phase One P25/25+). Hasselblad has devoted little marketing push to non-HXD products, for the most part. And, by the time the CF-22 product was released, the CF-39 was already in production. I don't know about the rest of the market, but most of my CF sales were 39MP, rather than 22MP.

And as has been mentioned, 22MP products have largely been traded in, although we regularly still see P25/25+ products come into our company via upgrade paths.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
ondebanks
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 04:14:51 AM »
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The simplest reason Hasselblad CF-22 digital backs are rare is that relatively few were sold, compared to H2D/H3D solutions (and Leaf Aptus 22/54-S and Phase One P25/25+). Hasselblad has devoted little marketing push to non-HXD products, for the most part. And, by the time the CF-22 product was released, the CF-39 was already in production. I don't know about the rest of the market, but most of my CF sales were 39MP, rather than 22MP.

And as has been mentioned, 22MP products have largely been traded in, although we regularly still see P25/25+ products come into our company via upgrade paths.


Steve Hendrix

Hey Steve,

As a major dealer, you are in a unique position to be able to confirm/deny/comment on the assertion made above by studioseven ("So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again..."). Is this true? I have seen used backs for sale on the C1 website - is this what becomes of all of your trade-ins?

Ray
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 07:35:36 AM »
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The used prices of a p25+ is too high in my opinion. For the same or less, you can get a brand new Aptus II 5 with 1 year warranty.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 11:27:24 AM »
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Hey Steve,

As a major dealer, you are in a unique position to be able to confirm/deny/comment on the assertion made above by studioseven ("So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again..."). Is this true? I have seen used backs for sale on the C1 website - is this what becomes of all of your trade-ins?

Ray


Certainly if a manufacturer takes back one of their own products in trade, it likely goes back out to the marketplace, after refurbishment. In the USA, these are typically offered back to us as refurbished units. Competitive products obviously don't go back out. Traded-in products that we at Capture Integration accept are either resold after inspection and testing, or sent in to the manufacturer, depending on if it makes more fiscal sense to get credit or sell. It varies.


Steve Hendrix
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 01:04:04 PM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 11:35:24 AM »
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The used prices of a p25+ is too high in my opinion. For the same or less, you can get a brand new Aptus II 5 with 1 year warranty.


Yes, but it depends on what your application might be. For example, if you need a 10 minute exposure, then the P25+ would be the appropriate solution.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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tbosley
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2010, 07:11:16 PM »
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Quote
The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.


Why is it so easy for someone to speak in absolutes as if they have factual data to back in up?  More and more like dpreview every day.

a) For what its worth - I still shoot with a IBM 320 microdrive in a Kodak 760c and it has never failed.  Probably older than most are to the concept of digital photography.
b) The imagebank is a rugged device IMO that is as dependable as modern portable drives.  Use an auto parking 3.5" drive with high MTBF if it makes you feel better.
c) Formatting a larger/new capacity drive to the back is not difficult once you see the instructions...
d) Send me all useless DBs due to failed drives please.









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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 07:43:02 PM »
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Why is it so easy for someone to speak in absolutes as if they have factual data to back in up?  More and more like dpreview every day.

a) For what its worth - I still shoot with a IBM 320 microdrive in a Kodak 760c and it has never failed.  Probably older than most are to the concept of digital photography.
b) The imagebank is a rugged device IMO that is as dependable as modern portable drives.  Use an auto parking 3.5" drive with high MTBF if it makes you feel better.
c) Formatting a larger/new capacity drive to the back is not difficult once you see the instructions...
d) Send me all useless DBs due to failed drives please.



I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products. Any hard drive is likely bound to fail at some point, but "soon" was an odd way to put it.  Cheesy And my understanding was that the ImageBank was pre-sectored, meaning each capture had a space set aside for it, rather than files or bits of files being dispersed all over the drive. And as a result, one could shoot continuously and the drives were perhaps more reliable (or the integrity of the data more secure at least) as a result.

Still, I typically recommended having a second on hand because if the ImageBank did fail, you were SOL at that moment.

More encounters occurred with the interface port becoming loose for the ImageBank than drive failures, in my experience. Having a backup resolved that situation as well, although back then spending $1,950 on a solution that one might never need wasn't always palatable for my customers. But that was their choice.

At any rate, I'm sure they're significantly more affordable today, in fact some of my customers may still have some extra Imagebanks hanging around they no longer need, since they've upgraded.


Steve Hendrix

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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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tbosley
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 10:54:02 PM »
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I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products....

Understand that an Imagebank can fail, but how is that any different from any other media failing?  CF, SD, etc. do fail.  Further, it would not be difficult to use solid state memory as the drive for an Imagebank.

But, making a DB unusable from that point on is a stretch.

I have an ImageBank and a spare BTW that I have yet to have need for.
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EinstStein
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 12:27:08 AM »
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Actually I think Flash memory is equally easy to fail. Let's say it's even worse. But the different is it's so easy to replace it.

However, the hard disk IS bound to fail and very SOON, count the FIT rate, particularly when it's used as portable in the situation of data bank.
Ever heard about the word "RAID" ? Guess why it's becoming popular?

A data bank based digital back would be obsolete when the data bank is no longer available. Another 3 years, perhapes.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 12:44:39 AM »
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I have owned an Ixpress with imagebank. Never one single failure. I have never needed it but replacing a harddrive in the Imagebank shouldn't be too hard. One thing I really liked about the Ixpress backs is the Ixpress cable (which is another of those things that are pretty proprietary and you better have spares of that too). Especially the connection to the back is a work of art. If only firewire connections could have been like this..

Anyway. If I would have a tight budget and could get a Ixpress back for a nice price I would not hesitate because of the IB. I would prefer something that has its storage inside and doesn't need a cable perse attached to an external device. This preference comes more from the desire for convenience than the fear of failure of the IB.
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jimgolden
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 11:02:35 AM »
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SUPER rare for V series...at the time of release I think most people on V weren't thinking digital. I have seen CF39 for V, but no 22. ever thing about going with H3D-22 integrated solution??
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:05:00 AM by jimgolden » Logged
KLaban
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 01:24:22 PM »
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SUPER rare for V series...at the time of release I think most people on V weren't thinking digital. I have seen CF39 for V, but no 22. ever thing about going with H3D-22 integrated solution??

Sure, but don't expect to find many if any H3D11-22 cameras, comparatively few were ever made. It took me almost a year to find mine and believe me, I'm not selling. Insert yellow grin thing.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 06:41:54 PM »
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I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products.



Understand that an Imagebank can fail, but how is that any different from any other media failing?  CF, SD, etc. do fail.  Further, it would not be difficult to use solid state memory as the drive for an Imagebank.

But, making a DB unusable from that point on is a stretch.

I have an ImageBank and a spare BTW that I have yet to have need for.


I was making the point that I only had 1 failure from all the units I installed, not that it was notable that there was a failure. So the rate of failure was very, very low. As has been pointed, out, the cabling, or the coupling for the cabling, was more likely to be the problem, in the event there was one.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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Direct: 404.543.8475
EinstStein
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 10:38:55 PM »
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It's a very wise and honest advice for all data bank owners to keep at least one more back-up.
As a dealer, would you take back that advise, given that you've only seen on failure case?
Or you'd advise otherwise to save customer's money?


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